coverage at this hour, american and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm iraq, to free its people. and to defend the world from grayed. a green with food and medicine and fleeting with that's all for now. be sure to check out our t v dot com for all the latest breaking news and updates. was he right back here at the top of the hour?

ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time to sit down and talk with me

welcome to wells, a part one and for seen here vividly manifest the consequence on big conflict in your plan is the discovery of national interest among the country that are not directly involved in this war. squeezed between the rock of western sanctions pressure and the hard place of that only konami can security reality. many nations hampton's course to make careful we calibrate the choices instead of following somebody else a believe. how is this newly discovered your political maturity reshaping the entire international system? well, to discuss it, i'm now joined by the far, the was just bulk professor at the school politics international relations up quite a zombie university in pakistan. dr. jasper, it's great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you. now, in one of your interviews, you talked about how pakistan i needed to break with this

psychological dynamic of co dependence. and you were discussing both being the case in ukraine and your broader relationship with the west. this tendency of always having to take florence. and i found this very interesting because i think this is a very accurate description of what's going on in the world today. and not only with pakistan, but many other countries when they have to truly focus on what's in their interest and it's no longer rhetorical point. it's actually necessitated by live by car life and hard choices. do you think we would have been at this place in this place, if it weren't for the conflict in your brain? foxtrot sported to got to the notion as i feel center, to have an asian. but i thought that is the you thought it into my mission within the state, whether it's the practical on a practical that's the reason. there is a whiting, what the americans that started the demographics in which they wanted to raise is

holding the moon. so it was auto, and this, the daughter was sustaining the american adobe wanted good relation in the united states. but this thing is similarly in the u. box on is very much sportive to the u. s. vibe of self determination. and their, i feel go by themselves and in this context, but on, by mostly believe, but not sports, the ministry of ration in new york, and just in the best on the russian invasion. so in this context of cause it's limited. but on the other side, if you see these, you get that i'm, it's such as that cannot ignore it. so you can say that effort to benefit is why my relation with democracy. so that's why we have been if

you read out it was a date in the united nations general assembly, what he meant the day you get regarding david, we are not wanting to russians. we are not proposing. but as he says done, we upstairs on the resolution because we want, this is not sewing on place. so we are not here to criticize anyone, but we've got a doctor. and jeff, i think this is a very important point because the ability to see the situation in all its complexity rather than in black and white and taking sides is actually a very important marker of psychological maturity. and it is usually the children who give each other either or ultimatums, either you are with us or you're against us. adults tend to be far more sort of

sophisticated in how they go about building a relationship. and i wonder why do you think the west or the united states in particular, which sees itself as the only adult and international community, the only adult who has to decide for everybody else? why do you think they put such a start v c choice before the rest of the world on the issue of russia? now i would understand if they treated russia in such a way, that's fine, but they also put the rest of the world in before the choice of either you or with us born against us. do you think that's a wise choice and do you think that's an adult choice? i think that, you know, either way, those all with them is all. i fully understand, but we focus on these kind of the things we have to keep in mind during before was long and i meant what was done. i use it with us of it. but this slogan became ready gone to question 911. when

they told us either with us or with that it was lucky because you live in a car. so it shouldn't be a ration or not to put in a bunch of stuff. but now we are living in a most polo. it's not a unipolar world. in yada, yada klondike setting asserted issue is your best setting. jana asserted, i'm actually going to check. yes. yeah. it has started from book. so much of the need to do what you call it. it's the i mean dog dog. yes. the thought of it can when republic,

i'm sorry for correcting you. russia didn't cut, capture them because they are not part of russia territory. their faith that i'm saying when they check out to the judge. yeah. that grammy and then it it is. yeah, damascus to be independent of some of those. so similarly it tried to create some kind of a thing in because that's what you call it. i mean and dialogue but johnny assertive med well them tobacco. so in this i'm actually not dependent on a quad. jana on india to dana. so either way, those with them is or is not the mature abroad. that's why the masters been off us do what again the speed a few. similarly, our prime accidentally was in moscow,

but we didn't explore the action in the u. k. though we were did either, but at the, by the level we did that up the, it was not diplomatically correct. and when den bilateral negotiation busy muscle and it done according to the should do so you the with us of a dime is full. well, dr. jeff bob, both russia and china, to some extent have been pushing against this american pressure to submit down to one set of rules beneficial for the americans. and do you think washington could have foreseen this kind of effect on other countries not only on russian china, but for example, in pakistan on indian, south africa and brazil i've been doing many of those countries are involved in very pain speak staking decision making process. one, they have to weigh in their own priorities versus be consequences and the costs of not agreeing with the americans. do you think that kind of

a fag is in american interest and do you think they were after it? after all, i think that the, these sanctions that being hurting the american alive as well as the american stage stage, which are not on the same page, us biases. this is just the out. that's why i thought and raise ship land bed the pipeline gas pipeline. and we are not solving on this work because of the 3rd party. so the sanction by, by the fashion. be your basic on my understanding is that with the passive don't die. the sanctions on august sanction will be good news in the back. why dad, lose lose been back because you see, even now,

ben day, what we sanctions india started importing battles of the i'll rush here as 400 misers. the bottom, the blue ball, the 17. essential that anyone was but jennings, the movie from right? yeah. automatically under that, come under the same. so does he into thought it was what i read the sanction, but for the indian, damascus macon amendment. that's the reason, trustingly. this is a lot of you say to look at the right. yeah. the quadrant of the s 400 meters move from, right? yeah. india. and that, and there was

a note in america, me, these, they're close to book or selective sanction. and they would be losing all the math sanctions will be seen in the effective due to pursue a behavior of the state. so what i'm hearing you say is that in picking up a battle with russia to punish russia and to make it a bay with the so called western lab, the democratic world. and the westerners and the americans in particular are encouraging and very different that similar sort of behavior actually among other nations, when they not only continue to pursue deals that are in their own self interest. but they also a formal conscious about political choices that they're making. do you think that's ultimately in the interest of the western lab world, and they actually losing it in the exact thing that they're fighting for with

russia? this is important because then the testing case went to sanction on the bass, the guns i mean on the right and the probate that you will not. but just these think from there, at the same time, they are driving them indirectly. bit in dependency on the problem with the natural countries is dependent too much on the united states. if you recall, when they're not on this screen, the pipeline gas sector, gas by plan started to construct from because you have to be germany. this type of mistake was upset. yeah, i did them city jump and said you're upset because they wanted to sell the engine to be yup. yup. is that it's costly for us? so these sanctions also him, me don't you guys said that was good sources. also. i got

to work on it on me so that it can benefit you rather than others. so this is the way, but we have to see the countries mcdevitt, you can say security georgie's are everybody was then on the or like india. it is not dependent on you can say, what is the lead security and why it was certainly india can deny and then make an amendment in sanctions rule. so this is debate in data that was the economy of utilized was just said, well, you can even call it. i think some of the russian analyst suggested that they answer russian sanction should be called anti new sanction. because not only to hit and in benefiting the united states in great deal, but they are actually directly hurting the european economy well. but it's up to the europeans to make up their mind. what is up to us right now, doctor?

just paul is to take a very short break, but we will be back in just a few moments statement. ah. in time i'm rick sanchez. and i'm here to play with you whatever you do, you do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that so different my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else work of it. please do have the state department, the cia weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations, to your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do, don't watch my show stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change and the way mm thing

ah ha, welcome back to worlds apart with the foreign and a boss and just poll professor at the school of politics and international relations kite e as i'm university in pakistan, doctor just called before the break, we discussed this. so with childish or you can call it info, infant tile, american approach to foreign policy. either you're with us or you're against us, and i think there is an alternative. it was there in place even before the recent visit by chinese prison she to moscow. but i think in the aftermath of this visit, this new paradigm is far better articulated. and what russia and china, i suggesting, at least to when it comes to that by the actual context, but perhaps even more, even broader internationally is a relationship that has

a much lesser emphasis on exclusivity. in fact, they don't demand that exclusivity at all. they have a more room for understanding each, each of those differences and conflicts, while still putting a priority on having that relationship as a container for everything else that can be sold within that is that only a trade off the russian chinese relationship or they behave in a similar matter with that partners, including pakistan. i, i knew that the relationship will be every positive impact on the central asia, staves, and it will be going to strengthen this vi projects aren't close to be at a project in the bus or middle east, or maybe, but as a question, go, whatever you call it certainly it would bring

a piece in the neighborhood because if the russian, the chinese joy, then they had a better position to manage the about astonished. and also our chat about starting konami could do so definitely if there is a bi lateralism between the chinese, it will be going to have a positive impact on the konami project, especially which are small, so renounced by the chinese. now you speak about pakistan, russia and china, you know, influencing the events in this neighborhood. but don't you think that the times are also requesting a more active physician not only from pakistan, but many other regional powers, be iran, tori k, perhaps even india. i know you have a policy of neutrality, but the policy of neutrality, i suppose, doesn't mean that you have to sit and wait until russia and china figure out

everything else. maybe positively trying to balance. not wanting to be an extent, but you know that international policies is easier to say that you are a neutral, but it's different going to be a new drug, especially is this like what's done, which is a very much look at it. graphically. it says legend and it says b, but in the issue of that, which is a big stance with a bigger population nuclear fall having if you can, within the region and having a defensive role to play in the global politics such as clarity is not at a full, but psalm has adopted a strict bilateral ism, that we can move in on issue issue basis. but we are hitting the decision. dorian, i've taught it darian dictation from the us sometime from the others. but john is

not working on this, but if you see whether we like it or not, that bad west was refused to la to sped in. this was the god a winter lamp base, but style was there. but everyone was talking that distance from russia, but started brian is still with us yet. now when western lead nations invited us out of america specialized by our impact, our bottom list, the listing the u. s. frequently. but in this demo, this is summit, which is basically indirectly against the guy. another didn't wife and i both. yeah . so boss refused to speak. we expect that we had to die maintaining good relations . but those ration that united but not at the cost of our friendly state.

absolutely. i can kick. can i ask you specifically about that? because i keep hearing from manney's, i guess tiny thinkers and officials that you want to have a problematic peer relationship with the united states. after having done a lot of haven't listing for them in again, it's done losing a lot of your soldiers putting, losing a lot of treasure, not getting even the basic gratitude in return. and yet, here you are saying again the despite all those dictate tauriel issue and says from the west, you want to have a pragmatic relationship or good relationship with united states. what is in your picture of a good or balanced relationship in the united states? because, i mean, i'm counted even to ask whether the united states is capable of having a relationship, a proper relationship back and forth with any other country, rather than. and they're so sophisticated arrangements when they want everything for themselves and giving nothing in return. so what's your view of a good relationship in that country?

it's very simple. by good relationship. i mean it's got to be a degree. that's one spectrum to the other spectrum. but sun is not clear that united states can not be our department because it does show them india. and we were begging the united states in order to balance the india individual context. now, that does not assisting sporting yes, next hour drive. so just more is normal. yes, on the economic just bought a book. but generally you're one of the biggest part of the us and i definitely don't like to lose it. the biggest market in the world in a population does the projecting pilot. but we're going to do more so because in that when i buy lateralism, i mean, then we can follow that issue is relationship. so my one issue,

let's say i'm asking you to publish it, but you that says you're alive. spotless ship. all the tests that you're alive basically then it means that i should not mind it, let them to go, but i can meant in bed. i love you by the american population. so my good relationship by be what is practically available, keeping in mind your medical spot and if you do that, i tried just my set. so everything which i used to expect. no, i'm no more known, but you'll get the most alive. and at the same time, i'm asking also the lisay, that's if they're not giving us and we're not expecting how to behave with us now. or we mentioned the issue of i've got to stand where pakistan, as i said, did a lot of haven't lifting for the americans. and i don't know if you would find this comparison appropriate. but i think something similar is happening in your brain

right now. when the ukrainians are doing a lot of sacrificing for the sake of the so called western democratic world in deep losing their people, losing that treasure losing their developmental prospects for the sake of a western interest. do you think they will get the gratitude or the support of the west as a whole for do you think it will last for a considerable period of time? because the reason i'm asking, and it's a very general question, because i think the pakistan is, holds for the same and deep and got very little in return. i think that is too much in the guess i'm just done. and i want analysts are saying that if you apply to know it was, was we had, it tries either to fight inside a lot of don base for the russians on our own board. so we wanted to montana buffle

. so that was the strategy that worked out of both the stop in the i think even before $979.00 and america practically in doing the dog a better rate. and it gives the water better isn't yes, they are either with us or with them. we live independently. also, if you read the americans of the victor, all the american germans, the american analyst, their alleging during the even bought on saturday, we want to know more alive, no new to i live, but one symptom trusted by the americans. that means the box down was meant dinning, it's independence whenever it requires. so that's why we didn't practically back to speaking. if somebody asked me that, do i believe the american between me today? no, that's wrong. i was on my board. i very they live. yes. it gives us the good thing

that they're fighting for their own independent sovereign existence. then they should be indebted to the best they are putting them in, thinking that they're fighting for the defense of the liberal democratic was i think they will be the losers. american look good. follow the civil bob's the smallest. did as a barn on the just look, then they don't get it. does this get cancellation if i put in bed? well good. if i'm not good, it's not a so this was a good all by the you good from a all the one that you're going to going to use that for, for them. and this will do us know if it does. yes, it's our choices. and if i may ask here, we only have about a minute left,

but i think it's a very important question. i heard you say before that the interest of russia, china pakistan, iran overlap, and i'm gonna send a bill, have a stake in that country being stable, moral, and perhaps have been developing economically that would, you know, boost our own inter dependence economic independence and development. now the americans in the west can no longer provide security to you guys and i think that's pretty clear. but do you think they could be in the position of providing insecurity to afghan is done through their support, the various militant groups or otherwise for this specific reason of destabilizing both the region and many of the of them is that happened to be in that region in russia and china included i think that a one is don, is this 10 proxy wall? there's a lot ocoee militant groups of you. whether said that guy was big on

the separation other, milliken gross. oh gross. just everyone. and these goes going to be exploited by a lot of stuff. if you just google see i yeah. it is said that more than 2000 miles . yeah, i mean still in a one stop. according to the bob associates. so the bad guns. no, the are white is done, they have good connections do. there is in the drive to decades. it up on the snow on the side, like in this living be of on the ever did the i was still there. so what, why if the america was completed by the big doctor just probably have to live in there. thank you very much for being with us. thank you very much. and thank you for watching. hold to sir, again on well, the part with

. mm hm. what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's creve implementation, let it be an arms race is offensive, very dramatic development. only personally and get into this. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk ah ah ah

ah, a number of locals and then run it to republic are killed in wound it as the area once again comes under ukrainian shelling. with the stories that shaped the week, we were at the timeline of the bomb attack in st. petersburg, which killed a high profile, russian war journalist and wounded around 40 other people. in a renewed effort to end the near jack a long complex key delegation to arrive in yemen for peace talks.