and we see both russia and china playing strategic and progressive roles. and of course we're seeing it in north africa, no doubt about it. i'll julia remains one of the most important countries in north africa, and it is a very close partner of the russian federation. we're seeing china's influence growing on the continent. tunisia given its strategic importance, is finding itself also in the cross hairs. will it be aligned with algeria and therefore is sort of multiple the world developing, or will it be aligned with washington that remains to be seen. but if this narrative is continuing, i have a feeling that it is opening the bridges toward algeria and towards the east rather than the west. not to rap on the hour and coming up french president mac crohn's visit to china and the western world in a frenzy, when the leader urged more autonomy for his country away from the us. but his z a bug sure any day late the discussion

with ah, ah, ah, ah ah, ah

ah hello and welcome to cross sock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . french president microns visited china, has the atlantis world, an neocons of all stripes, in an uproar. instead of being a mere cutaway in service of washington, the french president actually stood up for his own country and europe. but his micron a buck short and a day late ah cross sucking microns visit to china, i'm joined by my guess. rachel marson in vancouver. she's a syndicated column. this and r t contributor. and in pittsburgh, we crossed the anthony more at the he is an associate professor at robert morris university, are crossing roles and a fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate rachel, let me go to you 1st and vancouver. thank you. i know it's an ungodly hour there

right now, but you know, i think you've known me pretty long and i've never been a big fan of the french president mc chrome. but what he had to say in beijing and his flight home and what he said subsequently from returning from beijing, he's sticking to it and you know what? i agree with a whole lot of what he has to say. my only lament is wise in saying it now and not years before rachel. i'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that he walked away from china with a major deal for francis airbus, which by the way, is in be competition with america's boeing and they're in a do awfully globally. so the deal that he got in china was a 160 new commercial vehicles for china made by airbus and then doubling of the of the assembly and production in china for airbus. so i'm sure that did absolutely nothing his ways opinion that made it good to keep that relationship with china, particularly in light of the fact that europe has gotten nothing but grief from the

united states. even though it's gone along with everything. and in terms of washington agenda and ukraine, for example of yes, which fueled it's, it's whole economy essentially an industrial base and what you get in return really expensive. allen g liquefied natural gas from washington at $3.00 to $4.00 times the price asked her. michael's own words and he went over there to washington and talked about all this to our makers last december and even said, look, you have this new biden's inflation reduction act as well, which is re protectionist against european industry. so that's going to harm us, the expense of energy you're sending us now in lieu of the russia. yes. that we cut ourselves off, hook to please you guys is killing us. so he goes over to china and all the suddenly it's starting to look pretty good guy. he darks on the board economically speaking at a time when inflation is skyrocketing in europe, and they're facing all these other problems because of the u. s. and it's agenda and the blow back from that. so suddenly in light of all that he,

he is suddenly miraculously singing the praises of strategic european autonomy. i think that's the context we're looking for. well, you know, i did that a that said to her, i wanted to bring that up in the program this, this strategic autonomy will anthony, what does that mean to you? because my criticism of a cron is that he does say the right thing some time. but he doesn't really always act in the same way. now rachel brought up the, the stray deal that he got with airbus that's, that's really good for france here. but there's, i don't see a whole lot of consistency here. he's very, very on board with washington's agenda. and his rachel is just shown us here. i don't see what the french and the europeans really get out of it, but they keep, continue to do it. as a matter of fact, european leads compete for washington's favor, for what return i don't know. but so what, in your mind, what does this strategic autonomy mean because it's just to phrase, to me, go ahead anthony. i agree. i mean, i think on one level, i see it is just a phrase,

but on another i wonder if there's a recognition that, you know, let's face for the better part of a generation. it was a unipolar world. the united states basically said, here's how it's going to go and either gotten line or you face the consequences with china ascending now, especially as an economic power becoming more and more a player on the, on the military stage as well. the belted road initiative, perhaps being the signature economic initiative. i think suddenly you're looking at countries, particularly in europe that are saying, well wait a minute. do we have to play the u. s. lead game into perpetuity, or is there another option for us out there? and at the same time, and i don't know if the timing perhaps. b is coincidental, but don't forget to you've got that latest set of leaked documents in the united states, which although might seem tangential to the conversation, is another example. and micron certainly remembers this as certainly if you were

going to talk to angle of merkel, she tell you the same thing in the u. s. spies on its allies. that's something that when it happens, the americans refused to really take, excuse me, take a for, acknowledge it, and try instead to, to, to, to deflect criticism the other way. so i wonder if what's basically happening is the europeans are saying, hey, wait a minute, we can deal with you over here, but we can also do you over here. yeah, and rachel, it's something that it hasn't been mentioned and all the noise, particularly political, seems always be ahead of everyone on this. i don't think that's a coincidence. okay. i think i think they play a very strategic role in channeling information, but they're the criticism of crown. but, you know, at the same time, the blowing up the north stream pipelines, i mean, i think some people in europe thing, these americans, they're, they're more than crazy and they don't care about here at a more on a more sober note. rachel, i mean, do you think that there's

a sense of causality here? is that what is ukraine? i'm sorry. what is france getting out of this whole endeavor and ukraine and i'll be americans are talking about taiwan. i think that you know, mac chrome saying look, you know, we went out and this one we have no say in what's going on. the washington doesn't want to negotiate. it ended this conflict, and they're in there, brewing up something in taiwan. i think mccrae, this saying, look, we went with you on ukraine, we're not getting the thing out of it. we're getting negative returns actually. and now you want to bring us in to take on a made our major trading partner here. maybe it's just, you know, out of desperation, is that because over the last year and a half, what has the us done for europe? what is us done for france? i can't list one thing, rachel. yeah. well, i think france has been looking to see what it can get, this whole conflict since the beginning of the conflict. if anything, in the same way that washington has found the way to ramp up its military industrial complex with weapons for ukraine as a result of, you know,

being able to justify more spending in the defense budget and more profits for shareholders. of those big, big companies in the us military industrial complex. so recently france is kind of queued into that and they said well, ok, well the e u is now a lot, a 2000000000 euros for weapons for ukraine. and there's a bit of a cat fight happening right now within the e u. and it's kind of come to ahead this week and it's between france, which is arguing we should be able to use that funding for your ukrainian weapons in the you to produce them in the you and france obviously would be a huge beneficiary of that. since it is the big weapons production producer in europe, and on the other hand, you have the prime minister mathias more wiki in poland, who's saying no, we shouldn't be able to use that in the you should be able to be used everywhere. well, that's hardly surprising because he's basically acting as the big advocate for washington

right now within the e u. and is that they've been the fishery of american weapons. so it's not too much of a stretch to imagine that he might just be advocating in favor of spending you money on the military industrial complex in the us. but france is trying to get something out of that because really, as you mentioned, peter grants really haven't gotten anything out of this whole thing so far. yeah. well, anthony, you know, if there is a french politician in history that i'm a great admirer of and it's charles de gaulle, i think he was a great, a great, you're great french president, a great european leader and an inspiration all the way to this day because he did say when talking about the united states, he said alive, but not aligned. i think he's being proven right. still again. ok. and this is what i think chrome is actually crying to get out. and you know what?

the, the, the global south is saying exactly right now we can align with you, but where we could be allied with, we can agree with this and that this principle are but no, we don't have to get aligned with you and limit our options. and i think this is the mac chrome is setting a shockwave out there to people that know that this is a possibility that's actually being acted upon by the majority of the countries in the world. anthony, i agree with, you know, and, and there's another issue about that this whole military conversation that i don't think we can ignore. and that is that even the most staunch supporters of the iraq war from 2 decades ago, we'll have to admit it did not end. well, even if you were the most staunch supporter of the u. s. military effort in afghanistan, you have to admit it did not end well. and so as a result, now you look at what's going on in ukraine, you're frustrate 15 months into this military conflict. there's been billions upon billions of dollars in military weapons spent. and we basically reached, perhaps

a slog. perhaps we're at that dreaded you gain a little bit. i gain a little bit at the end of the day. not much happens. in other words, you've got a lot of people. i think justifiably saying, wait a minute, this whole military, industrial complex that rachel hit that at a minute ago. where exactly has this proven effective because us engaging in recent military conflicts has not gone well, has damaged the, the, the u. s. name around the world as damaged that the notion of democracy around the world. and i think again, it is yet another layer to the conversation that says, as you suggested, yes, we can be friend with, with your, with you. but maybe we don't want to walk lock step with you and everything that you choose to do. well, rachel, i mean we, we have the, the, the 20th anniversary of the illegal invasion of iraq. and so when you have anthony blank and talking about the virtues of democracy in a talkers the, i mean, he's laughed out of the room in most serious places in the world right now. and,

and i and say in france is a serious country. ok. and it's no longer is, is playing along with this ridiculous shirad. rachel at will you mention shoved the gun, the farmer, french president. and he famously kicked the americans out of france in the wake of the 2nd world war. and when let them hang out indefinitely, like they still are in germany, which obviously was a smart thing to do at the time. he also holds france out of nato, and they were, were he integrated into nato strategic command until for our french president nicholas ac was he took over in 2007, and it's been a, i have a disaster ever since. former president jacques chirac was very good. he says we say so he's a big disciple and follower of shot. the good. and, you know, he had the foresight and the strategic mindset and knowing history and knowing what the gaz position was and what the americans could potentially pull your of into

e cat france brightly. so i'd have that warrant, iraq, that we're not re drive after jump in here, actually have to go to a short break, and after that short break will continue our discussion. lemme crohn's visit to china state party. ah no. when i was showing wrong, when i just don't hold any move yet to see how does the because the advocate and engagement equals trail when so many find themselves will define, we choose to look for common ground.

ah, a say welcome back to cross that were all things are considered on peter labelle to remind you we're discussing the crowns visit to china with . okay, let's go back to anthony in pittsburgh. mclawrence visit to china was it was only a weeks before that, you know, china has been on the diplomatic stage as

a peacemaker, as a mediator, as a, as a piece or a piece maker. and then we, crohn's visit was kind of the icing on the cake for a lot of the neocons in the west, particularly for the nato world. i mean, china, you know, you don't have to agree with its domestic politics or anything like that. but i mean, it, you know, when it's engaging the world with the ran saudi arabia, syria, a lot of these intractable problems we've witnessed over the last decade or much longer. and then you have a 3rd power that comes in is, and it's importantly doesn't take aside. and this is what you know the, the global south is saying is that, you know, here, here's an outsider with a whole lot of cloud. no one doubts that. and you know, a britain bringing peace and lowering of tensions can be done on the west, doesn't like that. so 1st time in 500 years, a non european western power is come on the stage and such force. this is, it's making them very, very anxious. but crohn's trip was just an irritant,

because he does it. he's not staying in line that what's irritates them, but the, the, on the, on a broader scale. as rachel pointed out, such a major business, it wasn't with an american company. was that the chinese company? this is what's bothering leaders in the west. go ahead, anthony. no, you're absolutely right. and then i go back to something that we talked about just just a few minutes ago, you know, for the better part of a generation, the u. s. told you what the role is going to be and what it often tacked on to those agreements was a commitment to democracy, a commitment to the western definition of democracy, the western definition of human rights. and so, and so on, down the line. china is coming in and saying, look, let's talk business. if you can run your domestic politics the way you want, let's talk business. and for especially the developing world, this sounds good because, you know, you're not putting in perhaps a cliched example. many these countries look and they say, you're not putting strings on what we want to do. it's an attractive message to

that part of the world. and i think when you look at western europe again and maybe france, you know, maybe maybe it's going to be considered the outlier if, if, but, you know, the, the, the, the us for the propaganda effort warms up as it might in this case. but frances, basically saying, hold on a minute here, you know, we're supposed to be friends here. but as rachel pointed out very clearly, what exactly is happening in ukraine. however, selfishly, it might seem for us as french for us, as germans, for us as, as, as the brits, you know, what are we getting out of this beyond just being able to rally the flow or wave the flag and rally the cause. we need to see something more concrete. what china is essentially saying in its dealings with multiple countries is look, whatever your politics are, that's your business. we want to talk business, no strings attached. and in a lot of cases that's working out very well for the chinese and as you're and

you're absolutely right. and very frustrating for the americans. well, you know, right, so the, the problem isn't with i have with, they were a western foreign policy led by the united states. and it's, it's always this kind of fake moral play, which i find very, very irritating because it doesn't solve any problem lines. ok. i mean, i talk graphy democracy, i mean, you know, we can go and have a beer, i guess, and talk about that. but it's not going to change anything. ok. and what, what the, what importantly in mc chrome agreed with his chinese counterpart, which really irritated and the neocons in the west is that, you know, you know, you know, in this context, ukraine has to be resolved with every one security interests. ok, everyone. and that's why we have this best. so the 1st place i don't want to go up the path to, to, wildly here. but i mean, there was a whole point is, is that everybody wants security. everyone has to make secured compromises for everyone else's. that's how you go about doing it. and that's again,

the chinese approach with it's so called peace plan. it's not really a piece plan. it's basically, you know, laying the lay, lay of the land on how to move forward here. and it's all about security. but if you link it, listen to blink, and it's all about your moral character. rachel? yeah, well, i think all of this moral kind of lecturing, and i think it's all just really convenient cover for a us. if he, maybe they think that if enough people hear that everything is really good willed, then they'll think that there's a means to an end, but it, for, for whatever reason, b, u. s. in all of its foreign military interventions has never been able to really parlay the chaos into all the good will that they keep proclaiming they can't translate the, the war action to economic stability,

action that they seem to, to really want it gets lost in translation somewhere along the way, and yet here we have china, which is just decided, hey, maybe we'll just leave the chaos part. oh and just go in and mason deals. and the only real response that we hear from the west to that is oh, watch. oh, it's a debt trap. what is the i am asked eyes. what's the eye on that one of these i enough loans that honestly not a debt tribe. right? and sharon has painstakingly responded to that accusation said looked no, you know, this, they showed many times over and i'm sure the audience to see examples of this, some in various articles online as well that no, i mean there's, there's no real debt trap involved. and yet nobody in the west actually says, well, you know the ins, which by the way is extending funding to ukraine now already is very quick to get in there and set up by that trop. exactly. that. and china saying, look,

know we're, we're trying things a different way, which really, i mean, it blows my mind that the west with all its brain, suppose a brain power, am best and brightest, couldn't come up with that in the 1st place. why we always go through chaos, you get to stability while we just start with ability and business deals. try try that approach and hayden, as well. i mean, and rachel, you gave lightly love him or hate him, at least he didn't start a new war. i mean, that's a point in it. i'm sorry, that's a boy. new school. yeah. it's a boy in his corner. it really young. right. you're looking for we of that's it. go ahead. anthony. glad, jumping. keep a point here in mind to, you know, 2 presidents and the very beginnings of their term. barack obama went to the middle east and essentially said, look, i apologize for what my predecessor did. here in the united states, there was a sizable amount of population, especially on the right,

and especially in the military world, but that was side of weakness abiding, begin, begins his presidency with a at the 1st real high stakes meeting is with boynkin ants and multiple members. of the u. s. government meeting shit, their chinese counterparts in anchorage. it begins with a lecture from blank in that the chinese basically turn around and say, oh, you're not gonna, you're not going to, to lecture us that, that sort of lecturing is seen as a strength in the united states. my point being, if you start playing to domestic audiences as, as, you know, 2 presidents attempted to do this notion of, of being a peacemaker of trying to say, hey, look, we want to be a better actor than perhaps we've been in the past. too many quarters in this country right now, especially with the divine electorate that we have that seen as being weak and seen as cow, cow in to, to whatever country or whatever part of the world you want to look at. and yet,

the ability for the united states to walk in because of its economic powers because of its military, might to be able to walk in with a serious, believable, credible message that says, wait a minute. let's try to come up with solutions. the challenge with, with presenting a message that way is that there's so much history in which countries look at and say, yeah, wait a minute, where's the rub it to come out? yeah. but anthony, who, you know, who blew up the, the, the north stream pipelines. okay. you know, i mean, the world story that just continues around the world that you won't hear it in european, in america. german media could even talk about how bad things are rates i want to go back to something you said i think is so very important. and if we compare with the chinese are doing that, chinese are not lecturing anyone anybody, you know how country should behave and say, why don't we just take a baseline, lead c, r b u n. charter?

maybe we can use that as a baseline. ok. that is, that's a smart way of approaching things right now. instead of saying, well, we, you talked to that country and, and we're not supposed to talk to that. i mean, that's like high school. it's like being in the cafeteria and high school. but, you know, mean girls stuff here. i mean, and i'm glad going full circle that mccrory is actually saying it was better. you know, it's better for us as a frenchman, to have a better relationship with china. and the americans are not going to be the ones that are be calling the shots. i mean, he said it will see what the actions are going to be. rachel. it just blows my mind that you've learned, especially the neocons, which obviously that part isn't t surprising. they're upset whenever anybody deviates from their particular agenda, whether it's foreign or domestic. but it blows on mind that he will actually say that what michael is saying here is like he's touchy some kind of a taboo 3rd rail in french politics. i mean, that was pretty much the status quo in french politics for decades.

and he's just kind of trying to bring things back to. i like a more reasonable position because it just seems like um, everybody just really needs to calm down right now. nobody's thinking too clearly on the u. s. is just kind of dragging everyone along on this adventure and europe's riding shotgun. and they haven't really thought this through. and i mean, we've been talking about this all along where it, where the darts on the board, where the winds for europe. and i think the reality is slowly starting to set in and assigned a sober up a bit rate. so i have a question like i have a question for you. one minute we have left to rachel, how much is mc chrome thinking about his legacy? i mean i, i can't really say because i don't know the guy and i was in the wildly and your point, the reason i bring it up is that, you know, he's really gone on to a 3rd rail here. okay. i mean, he didn't, you know, he didn't have to do that. he could just ride along like everybody else. okay. but

he suddenly stout up and said something different. i just have to wonder if he's good. he's worried about how history is going to remember him. 30 seconds, rachel, go ahead. i could be because this is his last term. so he has, i guess, 5 years left now to kind of make his mark and all that's really been on the cards for him. so far has been the screen from one crisis to another and he's just been an reactive mode, responding to everything, whether it's co vetter or the economic sir ukraine and, and i think in this fight he might want to put his stamp on something. yeah, i think that now could be the case long, but again, i mean michael is very good. i think this is really important to underscore who's very good at what the french call let all men tell. in other words, this is true and also that is and back. you know, if i play with you now, i will let them. but here we have those. that's a perfectly, that's a perfect way to end the program on, i think,

my guess and vancouver and in pittsburgh. when i think our viewers are watching us here at our dc an exam, remember process ah, november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service officers, looking entrances and exits to cleaves oldest monastery. they were looking for alleged russian spies among the monk. it's long been reason enough to condemn any old oaks christian attack in prison and even kill them or go a flyer. i knew in total thought i shoot the youth here. miss scott, at the receiving end is emily was singing mom, i used to miss dom is senior. he just sat down

and i am exemptions and i'm here to play with you. whatever you do, do not watch my, your show. why watch something that's so different. my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else, work of it please. if you have the state department, the cia weapons, bankers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations, choose your facts for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't watch my show, stay main street because i'm probably going to make you a every night ask myself, why should every country have to be tied to dollars for trade? why can't we trade in our own currency? king the dollar and using national currency as bricks. cast an even bigger shadow on the g 7 economy with ease but not like this. an american face funded think tank. rage is that saudi arabia restores ties with us regional rival,

syria and iraq.