of ukraine recede, bill number's 7204. on banning the activities of the ukrainian orthodox church of it's exempted, the state will efficiently take away all the remaining buildings and shrines from the canonical church. under the new law orthodox priest and believers who refused to recognize the new nationalist, ukrainian church will be declared state criminals. ah i'm rec center, and i'm here to play with you. whatever you do, do not watch my new show. seriously, why watch something that so different my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else work of it please. if you have the state department,

the cia weapons breakers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations, choose your facts for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do, don't watch my shelf stay mainstreet, because i'm probably gonna make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change. and the wayne thing ah, during the 2nd world war to nazi occupied poland valinda was a farming region to dalliance mont of ukraine between 19431945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army, led by stepan. bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia, in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the murders were particularly horrific and brutal villages were burned and property looted. the valinda massa is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. why al, ukrainian politicians still reluctant to talk about these events,

how to modern day ukraine and poland view. this tragedy of the past and wide as the memory of aline, us to divide people. 2 2 let's say you're one of the most highly respected scientists in your field. let's say you're a patriot. let's say that you are committed to providing the best technical analysis and leadership possible all while trying to maintain the highest level of ethics. many of the hundreds of thousands of people who work in the american military industrial complex would describe themselves in exactly this way. so why are there so few whistleblowers? we'll discuss that with our next guest. i'm john kerry. aku welcome to the whistleblowers. ah.

2 so brought a gosh, roy was an engineer for nearly 20 years in both civilian and military research, much of it at the start of his career related to the so called strategic defense initiative. president reagan's idea for a space based anti missile system. that detractors called star wars. let me share with you a vision of the future, which offers hope. it is that we embark on a program to counter the awesome soviet missiles with measures that are defensive. what if free people could live secure the knowledge that their security did not rest upon the threat of instant us retaliation to deter a soviet attack that we could intercept and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reached our own soil or that of our allies. i know there's a formidable technical task one that may not be accomplished before the end of the century. yet current technology has attained a level of sophistication where it's reasonable for us to begin this effort in the early 19 eighties he was working in a research laboratory,

developing high powered lasers for missile defense. after some time, it became clear to the research engineers performance requirements greatly exceeded the capabilities of even the pentagon's most sophisticated technology. it just didn't work. but work on these lasers continued as if no problems existed. congress approved more and more money, and the pentagon gladly sent that money onto the defense contractors. eventually it became clear to sabrina that the program would fail, but it continued for several more years until the weight of the lie of its operability became too much and the project fell apart. so brought attempted to bring these problems to the attention of his superiors, but he failed. he also approached program managers with his concerns, but again, he had no success. the question then was what to do next. with highly technical skills, not easily transferable. so brought, i had to decide whether to blow the whistle or to just go along to get to broad.

gosh roy, thank you so much of the strategic defense initiative. same results that you were seeing after all. so the project got started in full swing about 8485 because he announced it in 1983 in a major speech which later later came to where he called the soviet union, the evil and i now and then talked about the shield that he was going to build to stop. so with miss side. so that was 1983. so i think our contract really got rolling 8485. we've been working on on laser, on a smaller contract before that. but now the money really i came in in tens of millions. so we grew in a big way. and that went on until, let's say for 1989. so 5 or 6 years. and, and after reagan left, the office and president bush came in george bush, 41,

and is at that time bushel is intelligent enough to realize that all this technology that we have been claiming we have all over the place on the, in the united states. just mostly science fiction and he really was quickly pulling it back. so and then bill clinton came in in $92.00 and he put a, a big come boss on the star wars act. so this transition happened sometime between 89 and 92. when lot of our colleagues, also as, as you correctly asked the question, what were the thinking, many of them knew this is not good, but this was a common refrain i was told by our senior vp don't you want to pay our mortgage. and so if we don't lie, then some other people will lie and get the contract and, and you will be holding them back so to speak. you made

a conscious decision to go through your chain of command and you told your superiors that the science just simply didn't support the policy. tell us about some of the specifics there. you made. one specific complaint at the beginning that was about a leisure's weight. can you tell us what that was all about? yes. well, the laser was for space basing. that's where the controversy happened before that we were mostly developing lasers in the laboratory. and we didn't pay attention to the way as wait, wait. so what we were paying attention to is a will the laser lays properly? will the laser put out the right amount of power, and can we build an engineering prototype and then actually a full board fillable laser. after we have proven the physics of the laser, that is the key that it has to work in the laboratory,

the physics at to be done, right. and then we can build a prototype that under the normal procedure. but here, the, the process of doing this in the physics phase is when we discovered in the laboratory far from actually addressing the weight question. but we discovered in the laboratory, one particular piece of information that to make the laser small, we have to pump the laser very, very hard and, and if we couldn't pump the laser very hard, then the system would grow. and for the same amount of energy outputs, so we only get the weight. and so we just said, yes, we have demonstrated a b, c, which was completely not right. this was a fundamental physics limit that riveted us from claiming the kind of weight that we would get because we couldn't pump in that hard the lives that wouldn't work if

we pump in that you didn't get any satisfaction from your superior. so you went to the program managers, what happened there? yeah, so i, i didn't, it was not an official complaint like written complaint. so i talked to a tough program manager on, on this, on the laser programs for the army which was leading the lasers at that time for the star was program. and it was very nice man. and we had very poor gentle relations because we always go to briefings, we bring them in after we have a beer placed on volleyball or whatever. and so these are scientist or scientists contacts. but when i actually went to them with my specific complaints about the claims we were making that are not verifiable, demonstrate bill and there are physics limits,

he really did not respond. i later found out that when i had filed the few, tam is that and d j eventually refused to join the same program manager. high level scientist a duty came back to d o j saying, wow, these are all experiments they so we have different things when experimentally, some fails and don't fail. well, it wasn't because we were building actually equipment that will fly in space if it could. so but, so he basically deflated a d o j senior pentagon scientist telling d j that hey, this is our in the i'd like to ask our guest to hold on and remain with us. we're going to take a short break and come back for more of our conversation with us defense department

whistleblower sir brought a gosh roy stay to the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 0 i feel that focused on me still working. a through the journey, all developing and identity and national identity various, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media were all sorts of use and merit chance have a chance to, to base and come to the for. but that also has a downside in everything is up for debate. nothing is agreed with, but i think a call when you get a bunch of up pull, no other key. for example, pres watson reach you or the appointment they will match that as if the books you put up with somebody about anybody. when i tell a game or half a day,

gamble for fire that key panel for gold. and i guess i'm a do not need the inside until a gina. i don't home on bad a deal because of the game both immanuel good. i'm part of the dick is off. i was a way for us to well by follow it your kiddos. i was on the bus, i saw a van o capital children. i spoke with central lab looking in the modem, which we think will ah, welcome back to the whistleblowers and john kerry who were speaking with us defense

department whistleblowers who brought gosh roy. so brought a welcome back. you lived with this for more than a decade, and then you decided to accept congressional fellowship for less than half of your previous salary. with that said, your fellowship was with one of the most important members of congress at that time . then ranking member of the house foreign affairs committee representative, lee hamilton. at the end of that fellowship you went to work for one of my own personal heroes representative, ron deleon's, who was then the ranking member of the armed services committee. you developed a new expertise on the military appropriations process, and it was with this new expertise that you were able to blow the whistle yet again, this time on a missile defense program called the airborne laser. it took another decade, but that program was eventually canceled. tell us about that experience on john 1st, a little correction that the whistle blowing at jail happened

not on the airborne laser. i can, i can talk for a long time about emberly's, but it was on a different part of the missile defense system. it was hard at that time national missile defense and now it's called the g m d, which is the ground based mid course defense. it is about defense of united states against strategic meaning, intercontinental ballistic missiles coming from the so called rogue states like dpr, k, iran, libby at that time, iraq and not to me. they didn't mention china, russia, but these are the threats that they were home during, in building what's called a hit appeal system into countries. and that was the basic building block of reagan style. i said at the start of the show that you elected in the 1900 eighty's to go

through your chain of command to report your concerns that got you nowhere. but it made you a whistleblower. you continued that whistle blowing on capitol hill while working with 2 of the most important members of congress. but a major revelation that you made came even later when you were working as a senior analyst for the government accountability office or ga. oh, for those of our viewers who don't know what the j o is, it's supposed to be the all tra, ethical, governmental entity that ensures the highest ethical standards and government. but that wasn't your experience at ga or was it? yes, that was the most. i mean, i still have deep respect, i would say for most people at my level or are somewhat lower level than me at jail, they are very sincere public servants. they do extremely good research and tried to write the best report they can at that level. and i was trying to be basically one

of them. i was a fairly senior person there because that come from congress and, and i had a broad technical experience which nobody did. and i was actually in the beginning, my boss, who hired me out of the congressional committee. lou rodrigues' was a fantastic man. he was a head of the national security and international affairs division. and he had interacted meet with me while i was on the committee staff. and so he hired me once he found that della had quit. and so, and i my, my, i would be gone because somebody like i tell them that taken over at our services, which is ultra conservative from missouri and anyway, so lou was exce excellent. and under lieu, i was doing really well at jail. i got most of the assignments were basically somewhat technical in nature because they had only me and a couple of other people who are technical. and so it was great. and then came this

project, this project to review the allegations of fraud in the national missile defense program. so my boss, bob 11. and he says she brought out this looks like just up your alley, all the missile defense stuff. so they gave me the job as the technical lead technical evaluator for the project. and i was assisted by another senior person, dave and who was doing most of the jail work for the, for the project. and i was doing all that review and things and everything went, was going very well. bob 11 was fantastic and supportive of everything i wanted to do to interview so many people. pentagon request absolutely original documents, tapes from the past and all that stuff. bob was totally behind me. and, but when it came to years later, when you came to writing the report that, i mean,

we were already facing some, some raid resistance from the legal department in jail. and they had one of their people, a senior legal person who just had come from pentagon. and so she had pretty close connection with the pentagon people. and i think it was through her that most of the influence initially came that look guys, i mean, you really have to turn this thing down and so forth. i mean, i don't know the exact words. i was not part of the conversation, but the net product was i was writing results of my analysis and, and review of documents in secret and secured compartmentalized. you know, information john knows all about that. and was it working day after day after day looking at the secret documents and taking mental notes and,

and trying to get some things declassified. so i, we could go publish the report properly. so i was succeeding that many, many stories that go along this time. but the bottom line was they basically put it combust on the report of what i could say. so i write a paragraph that the test was a total failure. and in fact, the boeing chip signed is a bob caswell, who kind of became my friend and he just looks umbrella. i mean, this is politics. so this is boeing, chief scientist. you became the 1st whistleblower in jos 98 year history. now 100 year history, your whistle blowing this time centered on your discovery of fraud by contractors in the missile defense program. you alleged that jail covered up the wrong doing 1st. why would they do that when their job is to do exactly the opposite? and what was the fall out?

the jail is, you know, is takes pride on being non partisan and that it is the watch dog of congress. it's bipartisan, of course, so. but in reality, jail has to worry about its budget every year is, is its budget is approved by the ledge affairs committee in the senate. and so there is some hearings and stuff where the jo chief has to make a budget presentation and so forth. and while when i was joining jail in 1998, just before that after the republican takeover in 1994 with newt gingrich, they really went big time against jail jail. last huge number of people in this inter graham between 1994 and in 1998. when i joined that

was the height of the republican revolution. good revolution. and they went after the jail day. they eliminated the only scientific, somewhat independent organisation within congress, which was called the office of technology assessment ot a old here had a staff of 200 people, mostly ph fees. and as budget was 20000000, can you imagine? i mean that kind of money is nothing for babylon and they cut it, they just got in the nation at the commerce and all this stuff, but they didn't do that from the pentagon, because the pentagon committees that supervise jail how some services which i was on it and the senator services they were primarily demo you public us of course, gung ho if optical flight duncan hunter from california will who, who just won the defense budget to grow like matter. no criticism of the defense

department and democrats were just trying to get money from the pentagon budget and just ship it to that constituency. so either way, there was no kind of supervision of jail didn't have any backing when it came to the pentagon, but other stuff they had little bit, but they did, did they, they got their lesson said g i, we and republicans were very powerful at one time that taken over congress, i mean the senate and house boat, which a lot there and gender, it's there. so it was impossible for them to do really independent work. so it's a political pressure was number one, they were very afraid. so everything is just to go down the middle, go down the middle, you know, he said speech read whatever. and on the one hand, on the other hand, don't say nothing. and that's, that's the political atmosphere where this report was coming out. and missile

defense, you have to know. it is ronald reagan spect program, correct. but he was representing this community of people ad los alamos, ad livermore, people who have been advocating getting out of the abm treaty and go against russia for strike and all this stuff. they didn't want any kind of cut to the missile defense. so that was the, that was the situation being a whistleblower, especially in national security, can be a very lonely life. but you had some significant support. tell us about that and tell us how the rest of your career has gone. you certainly seem to have landed on your feet. it looks can be deceiving, but no idea that i was very careful. you know, 1st of all, i had to be careful for many reasons because i'm, is, i'm one of the 1st scientists engineer whistleblower who's talking about

technical issues. not financial. i mean, there's plenty of financial fraud that happens in the pentagon. but people like snowden, of course, reveal fantastic information, but they're not per se, technical. so and then the von has, this are indeed budget which is now over 100100100 1000000000 and 20000000000. and under that, the missile defense program fits and this are in the budget, is a very lucrative gravy train for the contractors. so there are guarding it, you know, tremendously. so i have to be very careful that i was a foreign born and that i had very high level security clearance because i was in congress at the committee at the highest level as a professional staff member who is responsible for the r d t. any budget for the democrats and that time because we're only 7 people for the on the minority staff.

so i had a huge portfolio that was amounting $54000000000.00 at that time. just kind of take a look at, look at the budget and also make sure that the interest of the democrat members are properly taken care of. so and ron didn't chat about this kind of stuff, but the many other members did. so i had it sensitivity that i was a foreign born person with high security clearance. and i was dealing with very, very sensitive information because of the, just the politics of these programs against russia, china, whatever. so those are both foreign policy locations and technical. so i have to be extremely careful that i couldn't just go out there and face things just to get publicity. that's why it was so quiet and i didn't get the kind of appreciation and being a foreign born minority person of color. it wasn't easy to function in

a very, very white national security establishment. so it definitely did tempered what i could say what i could do. but i also had a very good relationship, bob bloomfield, congressman berman, chief of staff, bobby's a friend and he and punishment berman were very careful, continuously telling jail that you'd you don't take an adversarial or negative steps against mr. grocery. so i think jail didn't dare do that, but they had their ways of making my life quite miserables. i would like to thank our guests who brought gosh roy and thank you, are yours for joining us again. the great author, william faulkner once said, never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against

injustice and lying and greed. if people all over the world would do this, it would change the entire planet, will leave you those words. thanks again for joining us. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah, who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing the additional strong sanctions. today. russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. and number those constantly growing a list of course. sure. as we speak on the bill in your senior, mostly mine or wish you were banding all in ports of russian oil and gas, new g, a k. with regard to joe by imposing these sanctions on

russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's your boomerang ah, with breaking news on our t, the japanese prime minister is evacuated after a loud explosion, and white smoke hates an area where the official was said to speak. a suspect has been detained. also ahead with the united states needs to stop encouraging more to start talking about peace. it is necessary for the european union to start talking about p u. s. and the you need to stop encouraging the war and ukraine worth spoke .