[000:00:00;00] ah loitering munitions all cat, me kazi drones have been a game changer. the specially military grade, or where the variance prized western armor that ukraine has put so much faith in has become drone fodder. now,

kiev is attempting to catch up. on the 1st world war, we now have 2 of them. the 1st one was grounded with an anti drone gun, and the 2nd one was a gift. it was grounded with electronic warfare and handed over to us for analysis . these are the kamikaze drones. ukraine is mass manufacturing made from commercially available parts. they fly up the line g 5 kilometers an hour to a distance of 7 kilometers those northern stanford with this one came with its payload detached, quite heavy, about a kilogram of explosives. it's relatively cheap because of the poor quality components. $400.00 or so at them. the ukranian conflict has sparked a drone arms race troops now fear them. more than artillery. after all, a shell can't follow you. a drone. can. laura gas d of

r t from logan screeching. that's all right for now. thanks for joining us for the latest breaking news and updates head over to r t dot com and be sure to follow us on all social media platforms. and we'll see you back in touch with november 22nd 2022 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service offices looking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for, alleged russian spies among the monks. we mean deal of seeming or formal reason for the brutal crime down one church is parishioners said, song a song about ah,

it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any all the dogs, christian attack, imprison and even kill them. russia, what i knew russia finance, a big rush when you love store and you in your store of grow our slider, newish total thought as you used to me stop a samuel sample i use from this dog with ah. 2 2 let's say you're one of the most highly respected scientists in your field. let's say you're a patriot. let's say that you're committed to providing the best technical analysis in leadership possible all while trying to maintain the highest level of ethics. many of the hundreds of thousands of people who work in the american military industrial complex would describe themselves in exactly this way. so why are there so few whistleblowers?

we'll discuss that with our next guest. i'm john carry out to welcome to the whistleblowers. ah . 2 so brought a gosh, roy was an engineer for nearly 20 years in both civilian and military research, much of it at the start of his career related to the so called strategic defense initiative. president reagan's idea for a space based anti missile system. that detractors called star wars. let me share with you a vision of the future, which offers hope. it is that we embark on a program to counter the awesome soviet missile threat with measures that are defensive. what if free people could live secure the knowledge that their security did not rest upon the threat of instant us retaliation to deter a soviet attack that we could intersect and destroy strategic ballistic missiles before they reached our own soil or that of our allies. i know there's

a formidable technical task one that may not be accomplished before the end of the century. the current technology has obtained a level of sophistication where it's reasonable for us to begin this effort in the early 19 eighties he was working in research laboratory, developing high powered lasers for missile defense. after some time, it became clear to the research engineers performance requirements greatly exceeded the capabilities of even the pentagon's most sophisticated technology. it just didn't work. but work on these lasers continued as if no problems existed. congress approved more and more money, and the pentagon gladly sent that money onto the defense contractors. eventually it became clear to sabrina that the program would fail, but it continued for several more years until the weight of the lie of its operability became too much and the project fell apart. so brought attempted to bring these problems to the attention of his superiors, but he failed. he also approached program managers with his concerns, but again,

he had no success. the question then was what to do next? with highly technical skills, not easily transferable. sir brought a had to decide whether to blow the whistle or to just go along to get along. we're happy to be joined by so broad. gosh roy, thank you so much for being with us, brother. thank you john. it's my pleasure. take us back to the early 19 eighties. president reagan in a nationally televised address told the american people that he was taking the arms race to space and he announced the creation of the strategic defense initiative or star wars. i assume that you had already been working on the project for some time . how long was it before you realize that this project just simply wasn't going to work? and how are your colleagues reacting? they were seeing the same results that you were seeing after all. so the project got started in full swing about 8485 because he

announced it in 1983 in a major speech which later later came to where he called the soviet union, the evil m. i. and then talked about the shield that he was going to build to stop . so with miss on the so that was 1983. so i think our contract really got rolling 8485. we've been working on, on laser, on smaller contracts before that, but now the money really came in, in tens of millions. so we grew in a big way. and that went on until, let's say for 1989, so 5 or 6 years. and, and after reagan left, the office and president bush came in george bush, 41, and is at that time bushel is intelligent enough to realize that all this technology that we have been claiming we have all over the place on the,

in the united states. where just mostly science fiction and he really was quickly pulling it back. so and then bill clinton came in in 92 and he put a, a big boss on the star wars act. so this transition happened sometime between 89 and 92. when lot of our colleagues, also as, as you correctly asked the question, what were the thinking, many of them knew this is not good, but this was a common refrain i was told by our senior vp don't you want to pay our mortgage. and so if we don't lie, then some other people will lie and get the contract and, and you will be holding them back so to speak. you made a conscious decision to go through your chain of command and you told your superiors that the science just simply didn't support the policy. tell us about some of the specifics there. you made. one specific complaint at the beginning that

was about a leisure's weight. can you tell us what that was all about? yes. well, the laser was for space basing. that's where the controversy happened before that we were mostly developing lasers in the laboratory. and we didn't pay attention to the wait, wait, wait. so what we were paying attention to is a will the laser lays properly? will the laser put out the right amount of power, and can we build an engineering prototype and then actually a full board fillable laser. after we have proven the physics of the laser, that is the key that it has to work in the laboratory, the physics at to be done, right? and then we can build a prototype that would be the normal procedure. but here, the, the process of doing this in the physics phase is when we discovered in the laboratory

far from actually addressing the weight question. but we discovered in the laboratory, one particular piece of information that to make the laser small, we have to pump the laser very, very hard and, and if we couldn't pump the laser very hard, then the system would grow. and for the same amount of energy outputs, so we only get that weight. and so we just said, yes, we have demonstrated a b, c, which was completely not right. this was a fundamental physics limit that riveted us from claiming the kind of weight that we would get because we couldn't pump in that hard the lives that wouldn't work if we pump in that you didn't get any satisfaction from your superior. so you went to the program managers. what happened there? yeah, so i,

i did. it was not an official complaint like written complaint. so i talked to a top program manager on, on this, on the laser programs for the army which was leading the lasers at that time for the star wars program. and it was very nice man, and we had very poor gentle relations because we always go to briefings, we bring them in after we have a beer or placed on volleyball or whatever. and so these are scientists to scientists contacts. but when i actually went to them with my specific complaints about the claims we were making that are not verifiable, demonstrate bill and there are physics limits, he really did not respond. i later found out that when i had filed there see tam is that and,

and deal j eventually refused to join. ah, the same a program manager, i level of scientists a duty, came back to d o j saying while these are all experiments they are. so we have different things with an experiment for some fails and don't fail. well, it wasn't because we were building actually equipment that will fly in space if it could. so but, so he basically deflated a d o j senior pentagon scientists selling dear j that hey, this is our indie, i'd like to ask our guest to hold on and remain with us. we're going to take a short break and come back for more of our conversation with u. s. defense department whistleblower. so broader gosh roy, stay tune. 2 2 2 2 2 2 ah

little had now been good along and i don't remember for those of those did you do not actually show. so i assume you will use to send this to new york to, to just use the where you of course a nicholson i was you ah ah oh

a a a ah with ah, welcome back to the whistleblowers and john kerry, who were speaking with us defense department whistleblowers who brought gosh roy. so brought a welcome back. you lived with this for more than a decade, and then you decided to accept congressional fellowship for less than half of your previous salary. with that said your fellowship was with one of the most important members of congress at that time. then ranking member of the house foreign affairs committee representative,

lee hamilton. at the end of that fellowship you went to work for one of my own personal heroes representative, ron delena, who was then the ranking member of the armed services committee. you developed a new expertise on the military appropriations process. and it was with this new expertise that you were able to blow the whistle yet again, this time on a missile defense program called the airborne laser. it took another decade, but that program was eventually canceled. tell us about that experience. john. first, a little correction that the whistle blowing at jail happened not on the airborne laser. i can, i can talk for a long time about emily's a, but it was on a different part of the missile defense system. it was hard at that time national missile defense and now it's called the g m d,

which is the ground based mid course defense. it is about defense of united states against strategic meaning, intercontinental ballistic missiles coming from the so called rogue states like dpr, k, iran, libby at that time, iraq and, and not to mit and didn't mention china, russia. but these are the threats that they were countering in building what's called a hit appeal system, inter continental villa. and that was the basic building block of reagan style. i said at the start of the show that you elected in the 1900 eighty's to go through your chain of command to report your concerns that got you nowhere. but it made you a whistleblower. you continued that whistle blowing on capital hill while working with 2 of the most important members of congress. but a major revelation that you made came even later when you were working as a senior analyst for the government accountability office or ga. oh,

for those of our viewers who don't know what the j o is, it's supposed to be the all ethical, governmental entity that ensures the highest ethical standards in government. but that wasn't your experience at ga or was it? yes, that was the most. i mean, i still have deep respect, i would say for most people at my level or are somewhat lower level than me at jail, they are very sincere public servants. they do extremely good research and tried to write the best report they can at that level. and i was trying to be basically one of them. i was a fairly senior person there because i've come from congress and, and i had a broad technical experience which nobody did. and i was actually in the beginning, my boss, who hired me out of the congressional committee. lou rodrigues' was fantastic man, he was

a head of the national security and international affairs division. and he had interactive meet with me while i was on the committee staff. and so he hired me once to found that valence had quit. and so, and i my, my, i would be gone because somebody like i skelton that taken over at i'm services which is ultra conservative from missouri and anyway, so lou was exce excellent. and under lieu, i was doing really well at jail. i got most of the assignments were basically somewhat technical in nature because they had only me and a couple of other people who are technical. and so it was great. and then came this project, this project to review the allegations of fraud in the national missile defense program. so my boss, bob 11. and he says she brought out this looks like just up your alley, all the missile defense stuff. so they gave me the job as the technical lead

technical evaluator for the project. and i was assisted by another senior person, dave and who was doing most of the jail work for the, for the project. and i was doing all that review and things and everything went, was going very well. bob 11 was fantastic and supportive of everything i wanted to do to interview so many people. pentagon request absolutely original documents, tapes from the past and all that stuff. bob was totally behind me and but when it came to us later, when you came to writing the report that i mean we were already facing some, some resistance from the legal department in jail. and they had one of their people have senior legal person who just had come from pentagon. and so she had pretty

close connection with the pentagon people. and i think it was through her that most of the influence initially came that look guys, i mean, you really have to turn this thing down and so forth. i mean, i don't know the exact words. i was not part of the conversation, but the net product was i was writing results of my analysis and, and review of documents in secret. and it is secured compartmentalized, you know, information john knows all about that and we're sitting there, you know, can pick out anything can just working day after day after day looking at the secret documents and taking mental notes and, and trying to get some things declassified. so i, we could go publish that in for properly. so i was succeeding there are many, many stories that go along this time. but the bottom line was they basically put a combust on the report of what i could say. so i write

a paragraph that the test was a total failure and in fact, the boeing chip signed is a bob caswell, who kind of became my friend. and he just looks umbrella. i mean, this is politics. so this is boeing, chief scientist. you became the 1st whistleblower in jose 98 year history. now 100 year history, your whistle blowing this time. so on your discovery of fraud by contractors in the missile defense program. you alleged that jail covered up the wrong doing 1st. why would they do that when their job is to do exactly the opposite? and what was the fall out? the jail is, you know, it takes pride on being non partisan and that it is the watch dog off congress. it's bipartisan, of course, so. but in reality,

jail has to the ledge affairs committee in the senate. and so there is some hearings and stuff where the jo chief has to make a budget presentation and so forth. and while when i was joining jail in 1998, just before that after the republican takeover in 1994 with newt gingrich bay really went big time against jail jail. a last huge number of people in this inter graham between 1994 and in 1998. when i joined that was the height of the republican revolution. no vigorous revolution and they went after the jail. they de eliminated the only scientific, somewhat independent organisation within congress, which was called the office of technology assessment o t o d, a had

a staff of 200 people, mostly ph. d 's. and as budget was $20000000.00, can you imagine? i mean that kind of money is nothing for pentagon and they cut it, they just got an agency's gone, so no independent scientific voice for congress. similarly for g l that went after geo, so the jail management realize that because they're probably going to accuse them of just doing the job. mostly democrats, not that the gem democrats, was that terrific on national security, but on other social issues there were very many times. very good. so j, all right, some scathing reports on, on the health and human services department, the education at the commerce and all this stuff. but they didn't do that from the pentagon because the pentagon committees that supervise jail how some services which i was on it. and the senator services,

they were primarily demo republicans of course, gung ho if optical, like duncan hunter, from california will who, who just won the defense budget to grow like matt and know pretty soon about the defense department. and democrats were just trying to get money from the pentagon budget and just ship it to desk and stood to see. so either way, there was no kind of supervision of jail. didn't have any backing when it came to the pentagon, but other stuff they had a little bit, but they did. did they? they got their lesson said g i, we and republicans were very powerful at one time they've taken over congress. i mean the senate and house boat which and flogged there and vineyards that so it was impossible for them to do really independent work. so it's a political pressure was number one, they were very afraid. so everything is just go down the middle, go down the middle, you know, he said speech read whatever. and on the one hand,

on the other hand, don't say nothing. and that's, that's the political atmosphere where this report was coming out and missile defense, you have to know. it is ronald reagan spect program, correct. but he was representing this community of people ad los alamos, ad livermore, people who have been advocating, getting out of the abm treaty and go against russia 1st strike and all this stuff. they didn't want any kind of cut to the missile defense. so that was the, that was the situation being a whistleblower, especially in national security, can be a very lonely life. but you had some significant support. tell us about that and tell us how the rest of your career has gone. you certainly seem to have landed on your feet. it looks can be deceiving. but now that i was very careful, you know, 1st of all,

i had to be careful for many reasons because i'm is, i'm one of the 1st scientists engineer whistleblower who's talking about technical issues. not financial. i mean, there's plenty of financial fraud that happens in the pentagon, but people like snowden, of course, reveal fantastic information, but they're not per se, technical. so in and pentagon has this are indeed budget, which is now over 100100100 1000000000 and 20000000000. and under that, the missile defense program fits and this are in the budget, is a very lucrative gravy train for the contractors. so there are guarding it, you know, tremendously. so i have to be very careful that i was the foreign born and that i had very high level security clearance because i was in congress at the committee at the highest level as

a professional staff member who is responsible for the r d t. any budget for the democrats at that time because we are only 7 people for the on the minority staff. so i had a huge portfolio that was amounting $54000000000.00 at the time. just kind of take a look at, look at the budget and also make sure that the interest of the democrat members were properly taken care of. so and ron didn't chat about this kind of stuff, but many of the members did. so i had it sensitivity that i was a foreign born person with high security clearance. and i was dealing with very, very sensitive information because of the, just the politics of these programs against russia, china, whatever. so those are both foreign policy medications and technical. so i have to be extremely careful that i couldn't just go out there and face things just to get

publicity. that's why it was still wide and i didn't get the kind of appreciation and being a foreign born minority person of color. it wasn't easy to function in a very, very white national security establishment. so it definitely did temper what i could say, what i could do. but i also had a very good relationship, bob bloomfield, congressman berman, chief of staff, bobby's a friend and he and punishment berman were very careful, continuously telling jail that you'd you don't take an adversarial or negative steps against mr. grocery. so i think jail didn't dare do that, but they had their ways of making my life quite miserable. i would like to thank our guests who brought a gosh roy and thank you or years for joining us again. the great author,

william faulkner once said, never be afraid to raise your voice for honesty and truth and compassion against injustice and lying and greed. if people all over the world would do this, it would change the entire planet, will leave you those words. thanks again for joining us. 2 2 2 2 2 ah, i'm extension, and i'm here to plead with you whatever you do not watch my show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. what sort of opinion that you won't get anywhere else? welcome, please do have the state department of weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations, to your fax for you, go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't watch my show stay mainstream because i'm

probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact. so i guess you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change and the way you think the a breaking news on our t, the japanese prime minister, is evacuated after a loud explosion. and white smoke hits an area where the official with a suspect has been detained. also i had the united states needs to stop encouraging more and start talking about peace. it is necessary for the european union to start talking about peace result. president labs the west urging it to stop adding feel the ukraine more as the wrapped up