cultivate their ancestors, land the discussion next on worlds apart and stay close with me. hello and welcome to wells apart. when i was coming of age in the early 19 nineties to ride in the aftermath of the cold war, the biggest dream for many youngsters around the world was to get a scholarship or even a one way plane ticket to western country. and never look back. 30 years along many of those seekers of greener grass or about a life returning home with a conscious desire to help cultivate our ancestor lands what's behind that

phenomenon and how is it changing the world we live in? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by mcqueen hon. a pakistani public policy analyst and tv broadcaster between. that's great to see you. thank you very much for your time. it's a pleasure. santa. now, unlike many post cold war immigrants whom i had just mentioned, you were actually born and raised in a foreign country were born and raised in london. you've got a degree from cambridge and other one from harvard. you had a number of seemingly fancy jobs, including one with the euro, and yet you quit it and return back to your ancestor land. i wondering this decision seemed a bit a centric to put it mildly even to your own family. well, it was actually a family decision. and the thing is that when i was growing up in

london in the eighty's and ninety's and i was at school and university, it was a very different place to the u. k that we see now. i mean, recently we've seen the 1st minister of scotland has been elected, and he's a young british pockets. connie, we've got the mayor of london so on. there's also a focus on the origin. and of course, you have an indian origin prime minister in the u. k. now, 30 years ago in the ninety's and we would have been hard pressed to predict that it was a very different society. and i think most of my life was actually my childhood and my student years were dominated by the true government, a tory government, which was not known for them. in fact, it spoke to a lot of racial tensions. racism was very old, but in england and i'm very happy to say that the new generation so much more open

minded been much more aware of the races, so discriminatory americans and pretty much better place i think, for minorities now than it was in the ninety's. now i think for anyone who is dreaming about the future in a foreign land, there is a great degree of idolize ation there. the bigger it is, the stronger is the disappointment later, i wonder how it was for you that you know, cultural shock off by meeting the land that you jumped about. yes, so it's interesting that i grew up in england, which is the destination of choice for many buck is felonies and many asians in general. and i do, i mean, i'm very grateful. i grew up there because i got an excellent education. i think england is an amazing country in terms of the m, a chest,

the national health service, the rule of law, access to justice. and there is a relatively compared to the rest of europe and certainly to america a more free and balanced media. so i absolutely understand that people want to acquire those things, but i would say nowadays people should look to their own country 1st. because if you take it, if you have a sense of security in your country, you know, apart from those people who are, god forbid being repressed, all their lives are at stake, or they're so below the poverty line that they cannot even survive. that's a different type of migration, but it's a middle class people who are educated. i would say if you have a certain level of respect to your country and security and your basic needs are met. you know, the grass is always greener, but when you get there, especially if you go to like, say, the united states, you would be a 2nd or even

a 3rd class for many, many years. now in one of your interviews here, described the cultural shock that you had when you went to one party in pakistan here, where the only one who wasn't drinking or smoking there, despite the fact that you're warned, actually born in that country. but it was almost like while being born in the u. k, you were last westernized than many of the people who have leave the impact on their entire life. and i think this is such an interesting point. you also mentioned, you know, the british society is now being increasingly so their age, an ice pack, the nice or i don't know into, in the house the if, if i can put them that way. and i was thinking about whether one can really understand and fully inhabit their culture, their tradition, their spirituality consciously, without having some distance from it. because i think one of the reasons why you can see the pakistanis society, the way you see is because you have, you know,

so they're, they've the benefit of several different perspectives. i agree. i think that's absolutely right. having grown up in england and then coming to pakistan, which was an identity that was very strong in me. i was very focused on the british buck. it's funny. and then coming here and realizing that i actually focused funding identity is june of course of transformation for me. and the other thing i noticed for 80 of them were inevitably information. i think people have discovering their own history, islamic history, muslim history, asian history, and nothing into their own historical background rather than relying on the mainstream press, which certainly notice it is not blocking it out completely. you know, i, one of the things that i was kind of surprised a surprise me about here is, is when you said again and one of your interviews is that what you miss the most about britain is it's intellectual stimulation. and i'm certainly biased here. and

russia and the u. k. have perhaps the worst relationship ever. but when i look at british media and how predictable they are, you know, how homogeneous then narrative is. when i look at certain reports by think, tanks and you see the by isn't there the sort of the relationship with the fax, how casual it is to put it mildly again and when i compare it, for example, with the pakistani discourse as messes as it is it strikes me as far more genuine and intellectually honest. so i wanted to ask you, what kind of intellectual stimulation you had in britain that you cannot get enough in pakistan. so i think you know that the nation was when i was very new spots done. and, and i think things have improved a great deal in the past few years in buckets with the advent of opening up

a private media channels. at the time we only had one or 2 and largely it was dominated by the a channels that there wasn't as much freedom of debate. now you're absolutely right . responding media and responding society is much more open to debating different perspectives, especially on international issue. we don't reflect too much on our own internal issues with with that much objectivity mindedness. but it's certainly an international issue. yes. focus on is a very vibrant place to discuss things. and i think coming from a russian background or a chinese background. yeah. diplomats and the journalists with different and he noticed that then narrative carried in a much more balance fashion. i do want to discuss broader issues, but before we go there, let me ask you specifically about your success as a high profile woman, professional woman. and you said before that it was

a little bit of a challenge, because with ma'am, if i'm quoting your correctly, there is a presumption that they are competent with women. at least the initial presumption is that they have a pretty face. now you clearly have both. i one day that give you any advantages, serious advantages and still fairly patriarchal society like pakistan because you know that i assume they are not too many women like like yourself or have the power of both the beauty and the brain. so i think son is, is a patriarchal society, you're right. and in most fields there is a male dominant structure. i think women are doing fantastically well in some areas, but really it's got to be scaled up. yes, women from a certain clubs who are already educated for an education do very well and they have access to capital through that family. well, you know,

so those people are doing well and i know i'm from a middle class family. i have access to educational opportunities in england on marriage, and i think that's where the focused on is has to be a challenge is that marriage has been eroded to such an extent why? by favoritism, and by politicize ation of organizations, government organizations and entities and even in the private sector. so i do think that in that sense that has to be an overall rethink the way our society is structured because it is turning away the middle class. and it's also inhibiting women's talents, but in terms of women striving and making good stripes in society. yes, absolutely. but female pilots, fighter pilots,

even people ladies climb mount everest, you know? yeah, it's funny. women are up before front of fashion, music textiles, all sorts of architecture, all sorts of fields. but it is not wide spread throughout society, and we do have some very real issues. for example, i was in a corporate entity hearing currency where i live. and i to encounter sexual harassment in the workplace. and in fact, i have launched a case, filed a complaint against the ceo company, which is ongoing in the courts. and i've learned a great deal about the real challenges women face in the workplace even today. and that has to be ready to fight. well that's interesting. you say that because you also spoke a lot about respecting yourself. i mean, taking yourself seriously, not pompously, not the analysis stickly but seriously enough to stand for it for what you believe

and to develop the talent that that were given to you. and as much as that seems to be a key to your own personal success, i wonder if that's also something that allows any nation to grow, you know, taking yourself seriously from what you are with all your, you know, weaknesses, but also your strength. absolutely. i mean, self belief is a trait that you cannot do it out. it's a prerequisite of success. if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. and so belief is about a core value that you have. i mean, it's about having a set to guiding principles in your life and sticking by them and believing that that road map your life is the one you're going to follow with those principles. what you don't abandon this principle. you can change route,

you can change tactics, you can even sometimes change the destination. but the principles of that to carry you through, you've interviewed this war, prime minister focused on iran. and, you know, he talked about that as well. and he's a great proponent of that incredible determination and self. ready belief to give a vision to a country on a national level, but also to display that in your own life time with his achievements. i think he's a great example of what self belief can do is transform you from a well class cricket to whoa class. i'm therapist and educational list and now to a national leader and indeed a global leader. we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments session. ah,

a, a . i'm still working through the journey of developing an identity and national identity. there is, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media. were all sorts of use and narrative have a chance to debate and come to the for. but that also has a downside in that everything is up for debate, so nothing is agreed on from the most fundamentals. for instance, right now, our country is going through a massive political, economic and constitutional crisis. because even politicians can say that they

would choose not to accept the supreme court about it. now, in any other country, that would be infallible, you know, inviolable. you couldn't say that. so here, even those basic fundamentals are still being debated and for out of 75 years old. and i think the self identity is going to transform younger people coming in at 65 percent of the population that under the age of $35.00, they're not yes. and those decision making seats and position that i think the older gentlemen and joe and generation page, the way the younger people will come and that entity will become more solid when you say that 75 percent of the population are fairly young. i mean, for people of those age, it's natural to be concerned about how they look in be in the eyes of the outside world. speaking of which we both participated in

a conference recently organized by the lama by security dialogue. sam, you gave a very interesting presentation, analyzing various countries efforts to present that national image to the world. and what i found very funny is that the pakistanis continually trying to develop one theme sort of a upcoming potential. you had the pains like vibrant pakistan, the rising pakistan, emerging fax sensor. there's always some are this expectation of the same theme. and yeah, you don't seem to be able to stick with one slogan in particular, why do you think that is? i mean, both the commitment to this particular theme of and developing potential, but also not being able to play like let it open. yeah, because i think one thing that everybody does agree on is that we haven't reached our potential. there's lots of potential, but it hasn't been maximized. it hasn't actually grown and bloomed yet. i

think that's what we do all agree on. so various reasons. so that's why the theme is always emerging, are coming up or about to come up. we're about to fully realize the reason they can agree on the theme as again, were so politically fractured, new governments come in, they immediately change everything that the previous government did as far as possible. and i think until we reach that level of political maturity, it's going to be very difficult. as i said, i do have a great deal of pope as the most people in august on that the new generation will allow this change to happen because, you know, as they come off and they come into these decision making positions, they will not have the package of history and division that the older generation jobs and that's why i'm very hopeful of that. but on the other hand,

i think it's not only pakistan who is going through these very difficult challenge of essentially differentiation because we leave in an era in the political era. when most countries have to think consciously, not about just the external image, but about where they stand politically, economically, whom they support whom they don't support what they want to get with themselves, what, what they're willing to give to others. it's, and it's a very, very difficult process for most countries. i interview people from around the world . and i think everybody's pretty much going through the same process of sort of awakening of the self will not only on a personal level, but on, on a national level and even the international level. and i know it's a big question, but you're a person of a big vision, says so i want to ask you, what do you think it's taking all of us as humanity. this is sort of burgeoning of potential all around the world and everybody seeing themselves somewhat differently

from how you know others prefer them to be seen. i am, this is one of the great revolutions of social media. it has opened up access to information, but it is also allow people to get their point of view. though we're no longer reliant on these global news networks which dominated the eighty's and ninety's. but you didn't receive any alternative information or viewpoints about some topics . and we are seeing a shift from a unipolar superpower dominated world to this region. china, russia tried to bug on the wrong, and the gulf states taking role in this region. now, india is obviously a strategic ally of the united states, but it has a started, it's independence and policy issues and decisions, for example, importing oil from russia. so, focused on unfortunately,

hasn't been able to do that because as you know, iran government was ousted to a very controversial no confidence last year, immediately after he visited russia and wanted to negotiate with president about importing oil from russia. and i think that's the classic example of where super power has used its influence to interfere with either directly or indirectly, the politics of a developing country. and you know, it's sad that they do that because i think those days are over. now the public is much more aware of what's being done to them. you know, it's not 953 where you can replace an elected democratic government in iran and replace it with the shop car. i mean, you know, you for country can, you know if some people are used to certain ways of doing politics,

they will try until those ways will become totally ineffective. so anyway, it's a natural process. you know, it was very interesting. a few years. i saw the late tony ben, who is a real stool to british politics and he on bbc world. and he was opposite john bolton, who's a us diploma. and they were talking about something and tony been made this amazing comment. he said, you know, both are in the u. k and the u. s. are in decline and you've got to accept. and you know, you got a very rude on so from the american from john bolton. but he was an amazingly gracious person. but i think he was absolutely right. those in part are in decline . and throughout history you've seen decline and others take that place. and now it is the rise of asia 21st century. and these regions will we want to trade with our neighbors. we should be able to trade with russia, you know, we should be able to trade with iran,

and yet we are sanctioned and it doesn't make any sense for us to be sanctioned by that and not to be able to trade with our neighbors. i mean neighbors, you can't change your neighbors, you can change foreign policies, but you can't change over your neighbors. now we only have a couple of minutes left and we've talked a lot about sort of the fuse potential of pakistan, but i want to pay homage to your roots as well. and, you know, whenever i visit packets and i'm always sort of stricken by the legacy of your founding father and mother legion. now who i think was a man of this amazing cohort of the life of attitude toward the goal, our church cheryl gunn, the many others, even though he is much less known around the world. i think he was a very interesting and intricate combination of my poetry in western education, fascination with certain aspects of western culture, but also in january and appreciation of his own booth. he was never shamed of pakistan. you know, he liked

a lot this many aspects of traditional culture. and i think this brand of sort of enlightened conservatism is coming back is making a come back around the world. my question is, do you feel in pakistan i, you grounded enough in who you are already without. certainly closing all for the outside influences. some of them are very beneficial, but also, you know, feeling enough stability in your own identity. i think that's the fantasy question and of course mama religion is the founding father focused on and he is yes. a much under research figure. he was an amazing person who was so intellectually strong he had conquered. you know, the legal world. he was a barrister from lincoln's in england, so well respected, highly paid, highly in demand. and yet he had that ability to honor his groups and the muslims of british india, their identity, which was a separate identity. and you know,

it comes back to what you were talking about that cell filament, by density. so yes, i think we have an enormously brilliant example in religion. and increasingly the younger generation is learning more about him. i'm politicians like him wrong. have brought that to the for, you know, iran and his speech. his does quote along a ball a great deal to look for the east and he talks about self determination and realizing no human potential, you know, flying like shocking the bird. and the rather than pulling on the like, and i think that is something that focus on, you know, given the massive popularity that iran had amongst youngsters, millions of people saw him and i think he is really starting to invigorate people to say you can be proud yes, a western education is great. yes, it's fantastic to have skills, but ultimately you have to be rooted in your identity because went out but you will

float away. it's identity and principles. and i think one of the quotes about him i, i've read and now in one of the books by his contemporary he said that genetics confidence in himself was incredible. but it didn't make him analysis. it turned into this very strong dedication to public service ticket, land and full acceptance of not only who he was but whose his countrymen were and you know what his country represented. so i guess i'm saying that to wrap up and to wish that to all of us and all the viewers around the world from whatever they are . absolutely. i think you have to look into your own history. you have to have a sense of pride in your national identity and a sense of pride in your leaders. if they're giving you a vision and you agree with that vision, then you know the wild media certainly is not the right thing to judge your country

. because it is so selective and so biased. and so agenda driven, i think the debate has to be within your own country. sure. within your own country or the country, is that for me to have that scope for a bad migraine has been great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for that . thank you. it's been a pleasure and thank you for watching hope to sara. down on the walls apart. ah, with me right now i've been a member. oh oh. well

those are those did you do? mentioned show switch. can you please do a clue to just to use the way of good. let's go to general. nobody was here with ah, disturbing footage emerges from dawn. yes, one woman is dead and 6 others are injured. following the brutal ukrainian shelling

of an orthodox cathedral during easter services as well as a local kindergarten 56 dead and hundreds more injured as reports of heavy fighting between paramilitary forces and the sudanese army enters the 2nd day. the french prime minister says new reforms are good. com, but the government taking the people's opinion into account that says protesters faith.