with a conscious desire to help cultivate our ancestor lands what's behind that phenomenon, and how is it changing the world's believe then? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by mcqueen han, a pakistani public policy analyst and tv broadcaster between. it's great to see you . thank you. very much for your time. it's a pleasure. santa. now, unlike many post cold war immigrants whom i had just mentioned, you were actually born and raised in a foreign country, were born and raised in london. you've got a degree from cambridge and other one from harvard. you had a number of seemingly fancy jobs, including one that would be your am and yet you quit it and returned back to your ancestor allowed they one day this decision seemed a bit a centric to put it mildly even to your own family. well, it was actually a family decision. and the thing is that when i was growing up in

london in the eighty's and ninety's and i was at school and university, it was a very different place to the u. k that we see now. i mean, recently we've seen the 1st minister of scotland has been elected, and he's a young british focused on me. we've got the mayor of london so on. there's also a focus on the origin. and of course you have an indian origin prime minister in the u. k now, so he is ago in the ninety's and we would have been hard pressed to predict that it was a very different society. and i think most of my life was actually my childhood and my student years were dominated by the true government, a tory government, which was not known for them. in fact, it spoke to load it racial tensions. racism was very oh,

but in england and i'm very happy to say that the new generation so much more open minded, been much more aware of the races. so discriminatory marriages and the bridge and much better place, i think for minorities now than it was in the ninety's. now i think for anyone who is dreaming about the future in a foreign land, there is a great degree of idolize ation there. the bigger it is, the stronger is the disappointment later, i wonder how it was for you that you know, cultural shock off by meeting the land that you jumped about. yes, so it's interesting that i grew up in england, which is the destination of choice for many buck is funny. is many asians in general and i do, i mean, i'm very grateful. i grew up there because i got an excellent education. i think

england is an amazing country in terms of the m, a chest, the national health service, the rule of law, access to justice. and there is a relatively compared to the rest of europe and certainly to america a more free and balanced media. so i absolutely understand that people want to acquire those things, but i would say nowadays people should look to their own country 1st. because if you are you located, if you have a sense of security in your country, you know, apart from those people who are, god forbid being repressed, all their lives are stake or they're so below the poverty line that they cannot even. so that's a different type of migration, but it's a middle class people who are educated. i would say if you have a certain level of respect to your country and security and your basic needs are met. you know, the grass is always greener, but when you get there, especially if you go to like, say, the united states, you would be a 2nd or even

a 3rd class for many, many years. now, in one of your interviews here, described the cultural shock that you had when you went to one party in the, in pakistan here, where the only one who wasn't drinking or smoking there, despite the fact that you're warned, actually born in that country. but it was almost like while being born in the u. k, you were last westernized than many of the people who have leave the impact on their entire life. and i think this is such an interesting point. you also mentioned, you know, the british society is now being increasingly so their age, an ice pack, the nice or i don't know into, in the house the if, if i can put them that way. and i was thinking about whether one can really understand them fully inhabit their culture, their tradition, their spirituality consciously, without having some distance from it. because i thing,

one of the reasons why you can see the pakistanis society the way you see is because you had, you know, so there the, the benefit of several different perspectives. i agree, i think that's absolutely right. having grown up in england and then coming to focused on which was an identity that was very strong in me. i was very funny in british box funny. and then coming here and realizing that actually spawning identity is also in change and of course of transformation. and so the identity i thought was focus on was a few decade don't because that related to an identity my parents had left behind when they moved decades earlier. and so with immigrant communities, what happens is the home country, they leave behind a culture and they the memory, the stuck in that time. whereas coach and lose on and transformed and modernize it . so yes, i think it was very interesting for me. and the other thing i noticed was that

ultimately the so called in the, in every country are fairly westernized, whether it's focused on or any other country. because i was interacting with the sort of educated one percent in the, to very well off. they were, majority of them were inevitably equated westernization with modernization and i think that is changing now with the, with the internet and with this is in journalism and the access to information. i think people have discovering their own history, islamic history must limited asian history and building into their own historical background rather than relying on the mainstream press which thoroughly, if not blocking it out completely, you know, i, one of the things that i was kind of surprised about surprise me about here is,

is when you said again and one of your interviews is that what you miss the most about britain is it's intellectual stimulation. and i'm certainly biased here. and russian, you can have perhaps the worst relationship ever. but when i look at british media and how predictable they are, you know, how homogeneous then narrative is. when i look at certain reports by think town tanks and see the buyers in there, the sort of their relationship with the fact how casual it is to put it mildly again. and when i compare it, for example, when the pakistani discourse has message as it is, it strikes me a far more genuine and intellectually honest. so i wanted to ask you, what kind of intellectual stimulation you had in britain that you cannot get enough in, in pakistan. so i think that the nation was when i was very nice, but one. and i think things have improved

a great deal in the past few years in buckets with the advent of opening up the private media channels. the time we only had one or 2 and largely it was dominated by the state channels. there wasn't as much freedom of debates. now you're absolutely right. focused on the media and responding society is much more open to debating different perspectives, especially on international issue. we don't reflect much on our own internal issues with, with that much objectivity mindedness. but it's certainly an international issue. yes. focus on is a very vibrant place to discuss things. and i think coming from a russian background or a chinese background. yes. diplomats and the journalists with different than the notice, but then narrative that carried in a much more balance fashion. i do want to discuss broader issues, but before we go there, let me ask you specifically about your success as

a high profile woman, professional woman. and you said before that it was a little bit of a challenge. because with ma'am, if i'm quoting your plead, there is a presumption that they are competent. and though with women at least the initial presumption is that they have a pretty face. now you clearly have both i one day that gives you any advantages serious advantages and they're still fairly patriarchal society like pakistan. because sir, you know that i assume they are not too many women leg like yourself or have the power of both the beauty and the brains. so i think son is, is a patriarchal society, you're right. and in most feels there is a male dominant structure. i think women are doing fantastically well in some areas, but really it's got to be scaled up. yes, women from a certain clubs who are already educated for an education do very well and they

have access to capital through that family. well, you know, so those people are doing well and i, i know i'm from a middle class family. i have access to educational opportunities in england on marriage. and i think that's where focused on is, has to be a challenge, is the marriage has been eroded to such an extent, why? by favoritism, and by politicize ation of organizations, government organizations and entities and even in the private sector. so i do think that in that sense that has to be an overall re thing of the way our society is structured because it is turning away the middle class and is also inhibiting women's talents. but in terms of women striving and making

good stripes in society. yes, absolutely. but female pilot fighter pilot, even people, lady who's climb mount everest, you know. yeah, it's funny. women are forefront of fashion, music textiles. all sorts of architecture, also fields. but it is not wide spread throughout society, and we do have some very real issues. for example, i was in a corporate entity hearing her id where i live, and i to encounter sexual harassment in the workplace. and in fact, i have launched a case, filed a complaint against the ceo company, which is ongoing in the courts. and i've learned a great deal about the real challenges women face in the workplace even today, and it has to be ready to fight. well, that's interesting, you say that because you also spoke a lot about respecting yourself. i mean taking yourself seriously not pompously,

not the analysis stickly but seriously enough to stand for it for what you believe and to develop the talent that that were given to you. and as much as that seems to be a key to your own personal success, i wonder if that's also something that allows any nation to grow, you know, taking yourself seriously for what you are with all your, you know, weaknesses, but also your strength. absolutely. i mean, self belief is a trait that you cannot do it out. it's a prerequisite of success. if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. and so belief is about a core value that you have. i mean, it's about having a set to guiding principles in your life and sticking by them and believing that that road map your life is the one you're going to follow with those principles.

what you don't abandon this principle. you can change route, you can change tactics, you can even sometimes change the destination. but the principles of that to carry you through, you've interviewed before prime minister focused on the wrong one. and you know, he talked about that as well. and he's a great proponent of that incredible determination and self. ready belief and to give a vision to a country on a national level, but also to display that in your own life time with his achievements. i think he's a great example of what self belief can do this transform you from a well clos cricket to whoa, last, i'm therapist, an educational list and now to a national leader, and indeed, a global leader. i mean, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station. ah,

i mean what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have crazy confrontation, let it be an arms. race is often very dramatic development only i'm going to lose it. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical. i'm time to sit down and talk ah, ah, welcome back to world support with com, back us danny, public policy analyst and tv breakfast time, marine before the break we started talking about self perception and national

perception. and i know that since to returning to pakistan, they have done a lot of consulting in the communication of work for various pakistani entities, including i believe, a couple of government agencies. and when i, when i speak to back to signing people, i tend to hear that pakistan has an image problem. is that indeed an image problem, or is it a problem of self perception? i think it's both, i think, and maybe the image problem is because of the self perception problem. i think having lived here now for over 2 decades, i feel this is funny that's still. a working through the journey of developing and identity and national identity. there is, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media, were all sorts of views and narrative have a chance to debate and come to the for. but that also has

a downside in that everything is up for debate, so nothing is agreed on from the most fundamentals. for instance, right now, our country is going through a massive political, economic and constitutional crisis. because even politicians can say that they would choose not to accept the supreme court. now, in any other country, that would be infallible, you know, inviolable. you couldn't say that. so here, even those basic fundamentals are still being debated and fought out. 75 years old and i think the self identity is going to transform younger people are coming in at 65 percent of the population. then under the age of 35, they're not yes, in those decision making seats and position that i think the older gentlemen joe and generation page, the way the younger people will come and that identity will become more solid when

you say that 75 percent of the population are fairly young, i mean, for people on those age, it's natural to be concerned about how they look in be in the eyes of the outside world. speaking of which we both participated in a conference recently organized by the lama about security dialogue. and you gave a very interesting presentation, analyzing various countries efforts to present that national image to the world. and what i far found very funny is that the pakistanis continually trying to develop one theme sort of a upcoming potential. you had the campaigns like vibrant pakistan, the rising pakistan, emerging pakistan. so there's always some herb this esthetician of the same theme. and yeah, you don't seem to be able to stick with one slogan in particular, why do you think that is? i mean both the commitment to this particular theme of and developing potential,

but also not being able to play like let it open. yeah. because i think the one thing that everybody does agree on is that we haven't reached home. so there's lots of potential, but it hasn't been maximized. it hasn't actually grown and bloomed yet. i think that's what we do all agree on. so various reasons. so that's why the theme is always emerging, are coming up or about to come up. we're about to fully realize the reason they can agree on the theme as again, were so politically fractured, new governments come in, they immediately change everything that the previous government did as far as possible. and i think until we reach that level of political maturity, it's going to be very difficult. as i said, i do have a great deal of pope as the most people in august on that the new generation will allow this change to happen because, you know,

as they come off and they come into these decision making positions, they will not have the baggage of history and division that the older generation jobs, and that's why i'm very hopeful that. but on the other hand, i think it's not only pakistan who is going through this very difficult challenge of essentially differentiation because we leave in an era in the political era. when most countries have to think consciously, not about just the external image, but about, you know, where they stand politically, economically, whom they support whom they don't support what they want to get for themselves. what, what they're willing to give to others. it's, and it's a very, very difficult process for most countries. i interview people from around the world . and i think everybody's pretty much going through the same process of sort of awakening of the self who are not only on a personal level, but on, on

a national level and even the international level. and i know it's a big question, but you're a person. those big reasons are. so i want to ask you, what do you think is taking all of us as humanity? this says that a burgeoning of potential all around the world and everybody seeing themselves somewhat differently from how you know others prefer them to be seen a. this is one of the great revolutions of social media. it has opened up access to information, but it is also allowing people to get their point of view. so we're no longer reliant on these global news networks which dominated the eighty's and ninety's. but you didn't receive any alternative information or viewpoints about some casting . and we are seeing a shift from a unipolar superpower dominated world to this region, china, russia, bugs on iran, and the gulf states taking the key role in this region. now,

india is obviously a strategic ally of the united states, but it has a started, it's independence and policy issues and decisions. for example, in 14 oil from russia. so, focused on unfortunately, hasn't been able to do that because as you know, iran government was ousted to a very controversial no confidence last year, immediately after he visited russia and wanted to negotiate with president about importing oil from russia. and i think that's a classic example of where superpower has used its influence to interfere with either directly or indirectly, the politics of a developing country. and, you know, it's sad that they do that because i think those days are over. now the public is much more aware of what's being done to them. you know, it's not 1953 where you can replace an elected democratic government in iran and

replace it with the shop cars. i mean, you know, you for country can, you know if some people are used to certain ways of doing politics, they will try it until those, the ways will become totally ineffective. so anyway, it's a natural process. you know, it was very interesting to see. i saw the late tony ben, who is a real stool to politics and he on bbc world and he was opposite john bolton, who's a u. s. diploma. and they were talking about something and tony been made this amazing comment. he said, you know, both are in the u. k and the us are in decline and you've got to accept and you know, where you rudo on separately american from john bolton. but he was an amazingly gracious person. but i think he was absolutely right. those empires are in decline,

and throughout history you've seen and decline, and others take that place. and now it is the right the 21st century. and these regions will we want to trade with our neighbors. we should be able to trade with russia, you know, we should be able to trade with iran, and yet we are sanctioned and it doesn't make any sense for us to be sanctioned by that and not to be able to trade with our neighbors. i mean neighbors, you can't change your neighbors, you can change foreign policies, but you can't change over your neighbors. now we only have a couple of minutes left and we've talked a lot about sort of this youth potential practice and, but i want to pay homage to your roots as well. and, you know, whenever i visit packets and i'm always sort of stricken by the legacy of your founding father and mother lead, you know, who i think was a man of this amazing cohort of the life of attitude toward the goal. our church cheryl gunn, the many others, even though he's much less known around the world. i think he was a very interesting and intricate combination. of course,

my bulletin in watson education, fascination with certain aspects of western culture, but also you know, january appreciation of his own move. he was never shamed of pakistan. you know, he liked a lot this many aspects of traditional culture. and i think this brand of sort of enlightened conservatism is coming back, is making a comeback on the well, my question is, do you feel it in pakistan? are you grounded enough in who you are already without certainly closing off or the outside influence of some of them are very beneficial, but also, you know, failing and that's the bill ity in your own identity. i think this is a question and of course, mom of the legion upside down them is the founding father focused on and he is yes . a much under research figure. he was an amazing person who was so intellectually strong, he had conquered. you know the legal world. he was

a barrister from lincoln's in england, so well respected, highly paid, highly in demand. and yet he had that ability to honor his groups and peers, the muslims of partition via their identity, which was a separate identity. and you know, it comes back to what you were talking about that self filament, by entity. so yes, i think we have an enormously brilliant example in mama religion. and increasingly the younger generation is learning more about him. i'm politicians like him, wrong phone, have brought back to the for, you know, iran upon and his speech is just quote along a ball a great deal the for the east. and he talks about self determination and realizing your human potential, you know, flying like shocking the bird in the air rather than pulling on the line. and i think that is something that focus on given the massive popularity, the wrong phone has amongst youngsters. millions of people and i think he is really

starting to invigorate people to say you can be proud. yes. a western education. it's great. yes, it's fantastic to have skills. but ultimately you have to be rooted in your identity because went out, but you will flow to a dentist in principles. and i think one of the quotes about him i, i've read and now in one of the books by his contemporary he said that genetics confidence in himself was incredible. but it didn't make him analysis. it turned into this very strong dedication to public service ticket, land and full acceptance of not only who he was but who his countrymen were and what his country represented. so i guess i'm saying that to wrap up and to wish that to all of us and all the viewers around the world from whatever they are. absolutely. i think you have to look into your own history. you have to have

a sense of pride in your national identity and a sense of pride in your leaders, if they're giving you a vision and you agree with that vision. and you know, the wild media certainly is not the right thing to judge your country. because it is so selective and so biased. and so agenda driven, i think the debate has to be within your own country. sure. within your own country or the country is that for me to have that scheduled for aj and to be my friend has been great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for that. thank. it's been a pleasure and thank you for watching hope to sara young. on the walls apart, ah

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