a with me hello and welcome to wells apart. when i was coming of age in the early 1990 to ride in the aftermath of the cold war, the biggest dream for many youngsters around the world was to get a scholarship or even a one way plane ticket to western country. and never look back. 30 years on many of those seekers of greener grass or about a life returning home with a conscious desire to help cultivate our ancestor lands. what's behind that phenomenon and how is it changing the world we live in? well, to discuss that i'm now joined by. we put it mildly even to your own family. well,

a different place to the u. k that we've seen. we would have been hard pressed to predict that it was a very different society. and i think most of my life was actually my childhood and my student years were dominated by the fact true government, a tory government, which was not known for them. in fact, it spoke to lot of racial tensions. racism was very old. but in england, and i'm very happy to say that the new generation so much more open minded, been much more aware of the races. so discriminatory marriages, and the bridge and much better place, i think for minorities now than it was in the ninety's. now i think for anyone who is dreaming about the future in a foreign land, there is a great degree of idolize ation there. the bigger it is, the stronger is the disappointment later, i wonder how it was for you that,

you know, cultural show off by meeting the land that you jumped about. yes . so it's interesting that i grew up in england, which is the destination of choice for many buckets, felonies and many asians in general. and i do, i mean, i'm very grateful. i grew up there because i got an excellent education. i think england is an amazing country in terms of the m, a chest, the national health service, the rule of law, access to justice. and there is a relatively compared to the rest of europe and certainly to america a more free and balanced media. so i absolutely understand that people want to acquire those things, but i would say nowadays people should look to their own country 1st. because if you hated, if you have a sense of security in your country, you know,

apart from those people who are, god forbid being repressed, all their lives are stake or there is so below the poverty line that they cannot even survive. that's a different type of migration, but it's a middle class people who are educated. i would say if you have a certain level of respect in your country and security and your basic needs are met. you know, the grass is always greener, but when you get there, especially if you go to like, say, the united states, you would be a 2nd or even a 3rd class for many, many years. now in one of your interviews here, described the cultural shock that you had when you went to one party in pakistan here, where the only one who wasn't drinking or smoking there, despite the fact that you're warned, actually born in that country. but it was almost like while being born in the u. k, you were last westernized than many of the people who have leave the impact on

their entire life. and i think this is such an interesting point. you also mentioned, you know, the british society is now being increasingly so their age, an ice pack and eyes or i don't know into, in the house the if, if i can put them that way. and i was thinking about whether one can really understand them fully inhabit their culture, their tradition, their spirituality consciously, without having some distance from it. because i think one of the reasons why you can see the pakistanis society, the way you see is because you have, you know, so they're, they the benefit of several different perspectives. i agree. i think that's absolutely right. having grown up in england and then coming to buckets on which was an identity that was very strong in me. i was very focused, funny, british pockets funny. and then coming here and realizing that i actually responding identity is also in change. and of course of transformation. and so the

identity i thought was focused on was a few decade. oh, because that related to an identity my parents had left behind when they moved decades earlier. and so with immigrant communities, what happens is the home country, they leave behind a culture and they, the memories are stuck in that time. whereas coach and lose on and transforms and modernize it. so yes, i think it was very interesting for me. and the other thing i noticed was that ultimately so cool in the, in every country are fairly westernized, whether it's focused on or any other country. because i was interacting with the sort of educated one percent in the, to a very well off. they were, majority of them were inevitably equated westernization with modernization and i think that is changing now with the,

with the internet and with citizen journalism and the access to information. i think people have discovering their own history. islamic history must limited asian history and building into their own historical background rather than relying on the mainstream press, which thoroughly filtered if not blocking it out completely, you know, i, one of the things that i was kind of surprised about that surprised me about here is is when you said again and one of your interviews is that what you miss the most about britain is it's intellectual stimulation and i'm certainly biased here and russian, you can have perhaps the worst relationship ever. but when i look at british media and how predictable they are, you know, how homogeneous then narrative is. when i look at certain reports by think town tanks and you know, see the buyers and the sort of their relationship with the fact how casual it is to

put it mildly again. and when i compare it, for example, with the pakistani discourse as messes as it is, it strikes me a far more genuine and intellectually honest. so i wanted to ask you, what kind of intellectual stimulation you had in britain that you can get an hour in pakistan. so i think that was when i was very new spots. and i think things have improved a great deal in the past few years in buckets done with the advent of opening up the private media channels. at the time we only had one or 2 and largely it was dominated by the state channels. so there wasn't as much freedom of debate now you're absolutely right. responding media and bog responding society is much more open to debating different perspectives, especially on international issue. we don't reflect much on our own internal issues

with, with that much objectivity mindedness. but it's certainly an international issue. yes. focus on is a very vibrant place to discuss. things that i think coming from a russian background or a chinese background. yes. diplomats and the journalists with different than the notice then narrative carried in a much more balance fashion. i do want to discuss broader issues, but before we go there, let me ask you specifically about your success as a high profile woman, professional woman. and you said before that it was a little bit of a challenge. because with ma'am, if i'm quoting your, played there is a presumption that they are competent. and though with women at least the initial presumption is that they have a pretty face. now you clearly have both i one day that gives you any advantages serious advantages and they're still fairly patriarchal society. like pick a some bigger sir. you know that i assumed they are not too many women like like

yourself or have the power of both the beauty and the brains. so i think son is, is a patriarchal society or right. and in most feels there is a male dominant structure. i think women are doing fantastically well in some areas, but really it's got to be scaled up. yes, women from a certain club who are already educated for an education do very well and they have access to capital through that family. well, you know, so those people are doing well and i, although i'm from a middle class family, i had access to educational opportunities in england on marriage. and i think that's where focused on is has to be a challenge. is that marriage has been eroded to such an extent, why?

by favoritism, and by politicize ation of organizations, government organizations and entities and even in the private sector. so i do think that in that sense that has to be an overall re thing of the way our society is structured because it is turning away the middle class. and it's also inhibiting women's talents. but in terms of women striving and making good stripes in society. yes, absolutely. but female pilots, fighter pilot, even people, lady who's climb mount everest, you know. yeah, it's funny. women are forefront of fashion, music, textiles, all sorts of architecture of all sorts of fields. but it is not wide spread throughout society, and we do have some very real issues. for example, i was in

a corporate entity hearing currency where i live and i to encounter sexual harassment in the workplace. and in fact, i have launched a case, filed a complaint against the ceo company, which is ongoing in the courts. and i've learned a great deal about the real challenges women face in the workplace even today, and it has to be ready to fight. well, that's interesting, you say that because you also spoke a lot about respecting yourself. i mean, taking yourself seriously not pompously narcissistic lee, but seriously enough to stand for, for what you believe and to develop the talent that that were given to you. and as much as that seems to be a key to your own personal success, i wonder if that's also something that allows any nation to grow, you know, taking yourself seriously from what you are with all your witnesses, but also your strength. absolutely. i mean,

self belief is a trait that you cannot do it out. it's a prerequisite of success. if you don't believe in yourself, nobody else will. and so belief is about a core value that you have. i mean, it's about having a set to guiding principles in your life and sticking by them and believing that that road map your life is the one you're going to follow with those principles. what you don't abandon this principle. you can change route, you can change tactics, you can even sometimes change the destination. but the principles of that to carry you through, you've interviewed this was prime minister focused on iran. and, you know, he talked about that as well. and he's a great proponent of that incredible determination and self belief and to give a vision to a country on a national level,

but also to display that in your own lifetime with his achievements. i think he's a great example of what self belief can do this transform you from a well clos cricket to whoa, last, i'm therapist, an educational list and now to a national leader, and indeed, a global leader. i mean, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. ah ah, ah, ah.

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welcome back to worlds apart with con, about the sunny public policy analyst and t. v. broadcast time. marine before the break, we started talking about self perception and national perception, and i know that since to returning to pakistan, they have done a lot of consulting and that communication work for various pakistani introduce including, i believe, a couple of our government agencies. and when our i speak to back to signing people, i tend to hear that pakistan has an image problem. is that indeed an image problem, or is it a problem of self perception? i think it's both, i think, and maybe the image problem is because of the self perception problem. i think having lived here now for over 2 decades, i feel this is funny. still working through the journey of developing an identity

and national identity. there is, you know, we talked earlier about the vibrancy and the dynamics of the media were all sorts of use and narrative have a chance to debate and come to the for. but that also has a downside in that. everything is up for debate, so nothing is agreed on from the most fundamentals. for instance, right now, our country is going through a massive political, economic and constitutional crisis. because even politicians can say that they would choose not to accept the supreme court. now in any other 5, they're not yes, and those decision making seats and position that i think the old agenda, joe and generation page, the way younger people will come and that entity will become more solid when you say that 75 percent of the population out fairly young, i mean for people of those age, it's natural to be concerned about how they look in be in the eyes of the outside

world. speaking of which we both participated in a conference recently organized by the lama by security dialogue. and you gave a very interesting presentation, analyzing various countries efforts to present that national image to the world. and what i found very funny is that the pakistanis continually trying to develop one seems sort of a upcoming potential. you had the campaigns like viber and pakistan, the rising pakistan, emerging packets. and so there is always summer dissertation of the same theme. and yeah, you don't seem to be able to stick with, with one slogan in particular. why do you think that is? i mean both the commitment to this particular theme of and developing potential, but also not being able to quite like let it open. yeah. because i think the one thing that everybody does agree on is that we haven't reached out to me. so there's

lots of potential, but it hasn't been maximized. it hasn't actually grown and bloomed yet. i think that's what we do all agree on. so various reasons. so that's why the theme it always emerging are coming up for about to come up. we're about to fully realize the reason they can agree on the theme as again, were so politically fractured, new governments come in, they immediately change everything that the previous government did as far as possible. and i think until we reach that level of political maturity, it's going to be very difficult. as i said, i do have a great deal of pope as the most people in august on that the new generation will allow this change to happen because, you know, as they come off and they come into these decision making positions, they will not have the baggage of history and division that the older generation does and that's why i'm very hopeful of that. but on the other hand,

i think it's not only pakistan who is going through this very difficult challenge of essentially differentiation because we leave in an era in the political era. when most countries have to think consciously, not about just the external image, but about, you know, where they stand politically, economically, whom they support whom they don't support what they want to get for themselves. what, what they're willing to give to others. it's, and it's a very, very difficult process for most countries. i interview people from around the world and i think everybody's pretty much going through the same process of sort of awakening of the self, what not only in a personal level, but on, on a national level and even the international level. and i know it's a big question, but you're a person, those lab big vision says so i want to ask you what you're seeing. it's taking all of us as humanity. this is sort of burgeoning of potential all around the world and

everybody seeing themselves somewhat differently from how you know others prefer them to be seen. i am, this is one of the great revolutions of social media. it has opened up access to information, but it is also allow people to get their point of view. though we're no longer reliant on these global news networks which dominated the eighty's and ninety's. but you didn't receive any alternative information or viewpoints about some testing . and we are seeing a shift from a unipolar superpower dominated world to this region. china, russia tried to bug on the wrong, and the gulf states taking the role in this region. now, india is obviously a strategic ally of the united states, but it has a started, it's independence and policy issues and decisions, for example,

importing oil from russia. so focus on unfortunately, hasn't been able to do that because as you know, iran government was ousted to a very controversial no confidence last year, immediately after he visited russia and wanted to negotiate with president about importing oil from russia. and i think that's the classic example of where superpower has used its influence to interfere with either directly or indirectly, the politics of a developing country. and, you know, it's sad that they do that because i think those days are over. now the public is much more aware of what's being done to them. you know, it's not 953 where you can replace an elected democratic government in iran and replace it with the shop cars. i mean, if a country can,

you know, if some people are used to certain ways of doing politics, they will try it until those, the ways will become totally ineffective. so anyway, it's a natural process. you know, it was very interesting. a few years i saw the late tony ben, who is a real stool to politics and he on bbc world. and he was opposite john bolton, who's a us diploma. and they were talking about something and tony been made this amazing comment. he said, you know, both are in the u. k and the us are in decline and you got to accept. and you know, he got a very rude on so from the american, from john bolton. but he was an amazingly gracious person. but i think he was absolutely right. those in part are in decline and throughout history you've seen them decline and others take that place and now it is the right the 21st century. and these regions will we want to trade with our neighbors. we should be able to

trade with russia, you know, we should be able to trade with iran, and yet we are sanctioned. and it doesn't make any sense for us to be sanctioned, like that and not to be able to trade with our neighbors. i mean, neighbors, you can't change your neighbors, you can change foreign policies, but you can't change over your neighbor. now, we only have a couple of minutes of the few potential factors, but i want to own the round the world. i think he was a, you know, he liked a lot. you are already without certainly closing all for the outside influences. some of them are very beneficial, but also, you know, feeling enough debility in your own identity. i think there was a fantasy question and of course, mom of the legion upside down them is the founding father focused on and he is yes, a much under research figure. he was an amazing person who was so intellectually strong, he had conquered the legal world. he was a barrister from lincoln's in england, so well respected,

highly paid highly in demand. and yet he had that ability to honor his groups and the muslims of partition via their identity, which was a separate identity. and you know, it comes back to what you were talking about that cell filament, by entity. so yes, i think we have an enormously brilliant example in mama religion. and increasingly the younger generation is learning more about him. i'm politicians like him wrong. have brought that to the for, you know, iran upon and his speech is, does quote along a ball a great deal, the purchase for the east. and he talks about self determination and realizing your human potential, you know, flying like shocking the bird in the air rather than pulling on the line. and i think that is something that focused on given the massive popularity that iran has amongst youngsters. millions of people saw him and i think he is really starting to invigorate people to say you can be proud. yes. a western education. it's great.

yes, it's fantastic to have skills, but ultimately you have to be rooted in your identity because went out but you will flow to a dentist in principles. and i think one of the quotes about him i, i've read and now in one of the books by his contemporary he said that genetics confidence in himself was incredible. but it didn't make him analysis. it turned into this very strong dedication to public service. took his land and full acceptance of not only who he was but whose his countrymen were and what his country represented. so i guess i'm saying that to wrap up and to wish that to all of us and all the viewers around the world from whatever they are. absolutely. i think you have to look into your own history. you have to have a sense of pride in your national identity and a sense of pride in your leaders,

if they're giving you a vision and you agree with that vision. you know, the wild media certainly is not the right thing to judge your country. because it is so selective and so biased. and so agenda driven, i think the debate has to be within your own country. sure. within your own country or the country is that for me that's go for a big record, has been great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for that. thank. it's been a pleasure and thank you for watching hope to sara, down on the wells apart. ah. mm hm

with so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on, often very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk a hours that forth is came to a fees the presidential palace and the student needs capital call 2. i mean the 2nd day of heavy fighting between the power military group and the national army across the country. even at least 56 people killed and hunger wounded. china defense minister leave the country. relations with russia have been to the new era as he's

hosted by vladimir putin out the kremlin. also ahead with one civilian is killed and 7 wounded in don't yet stop. the ukrainian shells hit an orthodox church in the middle of the east. the service early on sunday for a warning the following images are.