$48.00, that would be of course, friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance. treaty signed between them and then the soviet union that was extended 3 times. the fins and russians signed a new cooperation agreement after the 1990 to follow the soviet union. so for the better part of the 20th century, the russo finish relationship was peaceful. this despite the fins back tracking on a deal made during the so called winter war of 939 to 40 after finland. in fact help the nazis from 1941 to 1900. 44. by allowing hitler's troops to transit through finland. and of course, some fins also took up arms against the soviets side by side with the nazis. by 944 . the soviets beat back the finish supportive nazis and an armistice was struck between the neighbors. so since 948, the f c m a treaty, there has been no political or physical fighting between the 2. fast forward now to

2023. despite no hospitality for nearly a century. russia's northern neighbor suddenly felt threatened and joined nato. so here we are. joining us to discuss and perhaps explain all of this is professor of political science at the university of oslo in norway g, a political analyst and author. his latest book is called, russo phobia propaganda and international politics professor of glen decent is with us professor. thank you so much for joining us. my pleasure. thanks for inviting me . so finland has just made a successful bid to join nato. there. accession to the block completed april 4th. first. can you tell us why finland seemingly out of the blue wish to join nato? i mean, were they facing some sort of imminent threat by anyone, specifically russia with whom they share this very porous border?

well, i think that's obviously a lot of things that changed was rush us in nation of ukraine, which spoke many and again, the media of course, was also consumed by this. so there was a huge and foss pushed towards joining nato. and because traditionally, finland has not had the political support for joining nato among the public. but again, because of the war and the sentiment changed quickly, and, and i would argue the key problem was that the, instead of sparking a reason a reasonable debate, given that, you know, the neighboring country went to war. and i think there was more emotions taking over because i haven't seen any sensible debate. they're about to what extent joining nato would actually help their security. again, it's not just the, the sometimes insecurity less is more, in other words,

if you bring in the american weapon systems, for example, or, or become part of this huge military lines. now, 31 states an anti rush military life is gonna cause our reaction from russia and will this then undermine your security enough so. so there wasn't really any debate to just that we fail greater threat from russia. it's less to nato, and very little discussion around the pros and cons in terms of their own security . and again, i think what's been missing is sir oldest focused. now that, you know there's war in europe with russia and, but no one really has thought much about peace. in other words, how can we figure out how we're all going to live on the same continent instead, it's just less ourselves, but send weapons. let's join nato, and last would also say this also had to, i think there was a deliberate effort of going into the say quickly, again,

the one in finland are suggesting that cross i'm, i said pack them. but because of the, the huge security concerns. now in europe and, and the sentiments had changed, and there was, i think there was an interest in the government to move while the public was on their side. and it's no secret that all from the political leaders, military leaders would like to be in nato. and, you know, but still didn't get the public with them. so i think there's an interesting to get inside nato before the war is over. so they don't risk loosing the public. so just so we're clear, there was no imminent threat to them by russia. and i should note, normally the nato accession process, historically it takes years. so why did this one happen so quickly? well, of, well, they're considered to be a lot of the sessions. previously had was with countries which used to be part of

their worth of packed or actually soviet republic, former republics of the soviet union. so there have been that will seem as needing more work. however, it is seen linda. sweet and i've been cooperating with natal for so long that a lot of the interpret realty has been already aligned, so it was easier, but also it was a huge interest to this country, joy and even you know, for long for a long time now. so and, but of course, you know, there was an opportunist and going on and there's a war. and now it's a good chance to expand the military lines during conflicts in human nature, people seek internal and solidarity in order to face off an external threat. so it is an easy time to call for expanding the military, expanding military alliances. so i guess every most in the rush to get this done quickly before and alone before the war might come down or piece

might emerge so. so this may be a chicken or egg question, but i'm going to ask it anyway. is it russian aggression or posturing of some sort on the global stage that causes these nations to want to join nato? or is it the expansion of nato some nearly 20 times now? 11, just since the fall of the soviet union, technically collapsing in 1991. that is provocative, thus creating, you know, this self fulfilling prophecy if you, well, well, i guess as many reasons why states who want to join nato, one of them is that the united states pays for a lot of the security. so it's seen as be giving our cloud security guarantees the while paying little so it's usually consider a bit of a pro call in which do not states provide space for the security. meanwhile,

leer pee in surrender, or some other political independence. so we follow america. leadership and in return america pays for our security, but i would say that's whether not it's russian aggression or well, what does it cost us this? i think it i'm on the list becomes a self fulfilling profit. because nato, after the cold fans, at some point, russia will roll the proponents are made to expensive deterrent against russia. on the same time, we're trying to assure russia, it's not against you. and, and that is, have to really matter what russia do, really because if the remainder expanse and russia doesn't object well, then it's another threats. and, you know, this no problem to expire to expand. but if nato, sorry, russia would object. well, that's a very aggressive thing to do if it starts to resist or find back. and now we have to expand that to contain russia. so it's, it's a difficult procession. we kind of put the russians and because we,

we essentially said that nato is just about democracy, and anyone who would oppose expanding it would therefore me anti democratic will be anti civilizational. so essentially told the russians who gave them a dilemma. we're going to expand the lock up there, border either 6 cylinder, nothing or we will campaign you so and yes so, so, so feeling prophecy, i think this is right for to use as we say in the states professor. damned if you do and damned if you don't. all right coming up next. nukes, nord stream, the you, when we'll talk proliferation and investigations. when we return with professor glen deezen. sit tight m o will be right back. ah ah.

ah, during the 2nd world war and nazi occupied, poland valinda was a farming region today as part of ukraine between 19431945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army, led by step on bendara. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly her if they can. brutal villages were burned and property looted the bellini. a massacre is without doubt, one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. my r ukrainian politician, the still reluctant to talk about these events, how to modern day ukraine and poland view this tragedy of the past. and why does the memory of belinda still divide people ah, sitting over at craig middle school with

madison both both the model she need to do both got nelson with as also asked about the leases or not with a home owners government performance going over a lot of numbers and floyd them boss will grow, you might be lost or earlier if you've already leased that mr. levy and he's not because tanya normally mentors for dinner with he's here with us orders from 0. i'm says audio is if i'm dish with auditors are there was the 1st phone number here

for you. bear with me to mac center and i'm here to plead with you. whatever you do, you do not watch my new show. like why watch something that's so different opinions that you won't get anywhere else. welcome please do have the state department c. i a weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. true your fax for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't watch my show just a mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but i guess we don't want to watch it because it might just change and the way you thing the the welcome back to the ammo. i'm manila chan,

so with finland expanding, benito footprint around russia, and no doubt nato weapons will proliferate another 800 miles. meanwhile, russia is making moves of its own with tactical nukes moving into velo ruth, professor glen deezen, author of the book, russo phobia propaganda and international politics is back with us. so professor, recently weimer prudent made a deal with neighboring bella roost to build a storage facility for rushes, tactical nukes, and exchange for modernizing bella versus warplanes. expected completion for this site will be this summer. actually, this will be near the bella russian western border. the exact location is classified, latvia, lithuania and poland are very upset by this barrel, nato countries. but could this latest push to bring in finland and maybe someday sweden into the block. be the impetus as to why russian tactical nukes are moving

in the bellow roof. well, it could be, i mean there was an interview with the former secretary general, nato doesn't listen. and he was arguing in the future for conflict, the rest conflict, nato with russia and the benefit of having sweden and finland into matters who could put a full blockade on on saint petersburg and denied them complete access into the baltic sea. so obviously, this is the problem we imagine if it was the other way around this, china, russia was mounting. their military in mexico or canada, united states would, would react them at the end of the day. it wouldn't benefits in one security. and this is the case here as well. so obviously, i think that's a symbol and it could have something to do with this obvious of the war in ukraine has something to do with it. and but overall, i think for the russian to stay and they decided that the, well,

the so called rules space international order where this one set the rules for the united states and another set of rules for russia, that it would be no longer acceptable. let's keep in mind that the non per proliferation treaty, that main treaty to address the proliferation of nuclear weapons. is there a specific the 1st 2 articles make it clear? and that's the nuclear weapon states are not allowed to place nuclear weapons into non nuclear weapon states. but as we know in europe, do not, a states displaced its nuclear weapons in belgium, germany, netherlands is only a turkey. so, so we're nato, we're in violation of this both united states and this 5 european countries for, well, for hosting the missiles are slow so, so this is problematic. rush, us descent is minute time. so we're like, you know, maybe should abide by the st is all non proliferation. and now we see russia effectively placing its, its own nuclear weapon stem in mellows and why

again, it can be many aspect anything from the war to finland, to the nato's reluctance to live by the nonproliferation treaty. but it could also be the reason why melody says more open to this now is because this will entail some surrender or solvent at some level, at least. it's because the details of fairness, nathan could have some aggression against villainous, especially poland, could attack. this is the fear because no one would attack russia directly. this would be lead to nuclear war. but the packing bellows might be a natural middle step from the escalation letter. so this could be a but again, them speculating. the one in moscow is telling me what the main motivation is, of course. now let's not forget under us president donald trump,

he withdrew the us from the i n f treaty as well. so that causes quite a danger for the rest of the world. switching gears here, professor, let's talk a little bit about the recent un vote on nord stream. the russian delegation spearheaded a vote at the united nations to conduct a joint investigation into who was responsible for destroying this multi 1000000000, multi, multi $1000000000.00, multi national project. only 3 votes in favor, russia, china, and brazil, all the other 12 security council members, abstained, rushes un ambassador by ceiling. a ben via said this ahead of the of the vote. he said, quote, without an objective and transparent international investigation. the truth will not be uncovered as to what happened. so the draft resolution seemed necessary. i would say, given that russia was borrowed from conducting their own investigation into the

blast of their own pipeline. how do you read this vote and what happened there at the u. n. s c? well, it's not many ways to read it. really. it's the west does not want an independent investigation into the tackle. nordstrom, it's i know that's a new link and came out and said, well, the only reason why russia is doing this is because it's because they want to try to criminal to the united states to make it look guilty about that. you don't have an evidence, but again, this is the whole point. you have to have the investigation to have evidence. and i think it's quite extraordinary that the not just us, but all it's the are being partners as well. i do not really want to know how many independent instigation interests i think is about the referred to us stuck on the syndrome, but it is, it is quite strange. so again, i don't think because this is so politicized. someone attacked the main as some of

the key european energy infrastructure, a causing economic devastation to europe, but also an environmental disaster. and. and again, even the united states now said that it's up, the russians are behind this. they will try to throw the ukrainians on the bus. but anyways, if someone has done this, is shirley, this is important enough to, to investigate and the, and the, well, i would agree, i don't think any names, any investigation now, either by the natal side or by the russian side would be credible. you need to have in dependence investigation and keep in mind that the early on the sweden did an investigation in the didn't they want to share the results than with denmark and germany, which are their nathan ls in the site, the national security. so something obviously has happened here because someone attacked this pipelines and it's a good chance that this is natal country,

packing and other nato countries. and so if you would think an investigation would be of interest, but i think to control now it's important. we have to keep natal solidarity, which means we cannot know who would, who did this and just caught an article by washington post only a few days ago. it said that the come, it said that, well, something like a leader is slow to see no benefits from digging too deeply and finding an uncomfortable answer. so this is the, this was, this is the sentiment now in nato. we, i think we know who did this and, but we do not want to have it confirmed because then this will be very uncomfortable. it would so divisions within the military lines. and we can't have divisions. now we have to all march in the same tune and staff together against russia. according to sy hersh his article about how north stream was destroyed.

this would have required approval, or at least acceptance or understanding by denmark. given that the blast site was just off the coast of foreign home island, which is danish territory, not to mention, according to her, she is reporting the bombs were planted during the nato exercises called bolt ops. denmark is a native member. up until this point, what was denmark relationship with russia, and now that denmark has rejected russia's request to conduct their own investigation? where does that put their future relations? well, the trust is completely gone, obviously. now that goes both ways. obviously, the denmark, us lost a lot of trust in russia, but also russia has lost all trust now in, in denmark, because, again, some on the attack, the energy infrastructure built by the russians. as you said before, i think everyone knows who's done it now,

and that they are now seen to effectively obstruct an investigation in this kind of thing. so usually make you sound like a conspiracy if there is. but there are no other explanations at this point anymore . so so i think here this is just going to continue to damage the relationship between denmark and rush, obviously. but also i think over over a long term, i think this will also cause some divisions within, within the ranks of nato. because as i mentioned before at the moment, and we don't want to find out who actually attacked us because we're afraid that this could create divisions. but there's only because we need to have sol barrett. and now, because we're in the fact the war against, with russia now, once this war comes to an end, there's more chance that we're going to start looking around at the, you know, who, who attacked us. because for, for germany,

this is quite the devastating they are the leading economy in europe. they're the locomotive driving forward. and a lot of their industries are quite energy intensive and all of these industries and faltering and again it's industries can't be competitive anymore. and that's with expensive energy to buy from the united states. so so the main driving force of the airplane economy has now well gone off the rails and, and the is taking rest of your with it. so once, once everything started going wrong with the economy and when the war is over, i think we're going to start to look among each other for him to blame. so at least that's my prediction. russia, china, brazil, the yes boats at the u. n. s. c, all members of bricks. is there any coincidence their nose? no, not really. they are well, they're aligning their economies more and more, and also having more security or military cooperation. and at the same time,

we see that the bricks country are harmonizing their, their, their, their policy, political statements to a greater degree. so again, their biggest countries are also members of the sun high corporation organizations . not brazil, of course. and and, but it shouldn't be a surprise, but i'm more, i'm more surprised to be honest about the, the, the soul dorothy who, who with, with, with, in the west that more because i think for countries on the outside it's not just a bricks country. i think the rest of the world's looking at this and thinking, well, what other explanation could there be? keep in mind that the united states, they used to sanction the european allies for participated in building the nor stream project. and you had their reports from rand corporation, which is us think bank in order in 2019 by the us army. and one of the steps to weakening russia was the 1st step was to stop the north stream to you had the leading us politicians from mike from pale from cotton and cruz all of them

saying even jake fell in those saying we had to stop nordstrom too. and this was before us that we had joe biden said, we're going to bring it to an end victoria newland before before. and after the attack saying that this was a good thing that this was blown up in. so it's just been over and over again where we, we see that, well, the united states have been threatening to destroy it. and then of course, after they destroyed it, we have people like the blinking, you know, no uncertain term, arguing that the destruction of nor street was a tremendous opportunity. so, and in europe, we're not even allowed to say that the u. s. will benefit from destruction even know that they're celebrating in washington we, we can't even say because this will be this information. instead, we're claiming, you know, this is the russian playbook and the, and this is, this is a situation where, so i think when the rest of the world looks at this, what, what,

what other conclusion can they reach? and again i, i think i think that the unity now within the, within the rigs countries is.