i am government officials relying they are obscuring just how bad the war is going for ukraine, the level of casualties. so they want to deflect attention away from that and focus on discourse, allegedly, this kind of pirate network, or, you know, network for misfits or extremis. and then they take a lot of those documents down. i think the government doesn't want the public to know what's in those documents because they're trying to sustain this narrative. you know that the crane more is going great and the u. s. is supporting democracy and they're going to the feat russia soon. but i think there are elements within the pentagon, se military establishment at this point that are questioning us policy. and i think that's all i mean, the source of these lakes and you know, growing this affection and the vision about the war in the pentagon, many thanks for joining us on the program is really great to get your take on things we've been speaking to managing editor of covert action magazine, jeremy could not thank you. thank you. thank you for joining us. say i'll naughty

international will be back with more related to the top of the ha, ah, i'm after a dancing welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the united arab emirates here in the mid least economies. a booming, but the outlook for what some cool, the post ukraine dying us empires vessel states in europe. things may not be so rosy while 40000000 will go hungry tonight in the usa, the media may be talking about something called the debt ceiling. they probably shouldn't be, says one economist who advises congresswoman alexandria casa cortez, amongst others. amidst his fight to end the climate emergency. professor robert hawkins cornell, edward cornell,

professor of law and professor public policy. cornell university senior counsel at west wood capital investment bank joins me now. from new york city, thank you so much for us. all get for coming on. yeah, the world financial markets, they've been concerned about the f o m. c monetary policy interest rates. that doggie will affect the financial, the indices around the world. but i mean, here maybe in the global south is d dollarization, the environment. and the issues of the impact of ukraine is bricks, bank and shang i. cooperation organisation. movement occurs. what do you think the impact of ukraine will be on you u. s. economies. thanks ashley. great to be with you. i think i'm either a number of to state. i think the effects that are worth tracing. one is as you suggested, there is a good deal more talk now about the dollarization than there used to be. i think ours are the number of the brit nations and other nations as well, are trying to kind of get out from under the us dollar as the sort of principal,

transnational currency. and of course, the reason for that in turn is that the, the role of the dollar in the global economy enables us to exert a good deal of leverage through a sanctioning activity of a kind. of course that's been fairly active over the last year. there is, however, one possible sort of itch to that, that might stand in the way and i think, but it's going to do as far as the brits in particular, china to essentially make some sort of so called hard choices as they say here in the u. s, so the thing about the dollars global role is that it's actually been in a certain sense helpful to china and other economies who's growth model has been an export lead growth model. the reason being that the dollars of course, over valued in virtue of its role in the global economy. and that, of course, makes american exports more expensive than they would otherwise be. and it makes other nations exports less expensive to americans. at least they would otherwise be,

and that's course why the u. s. has been incurring current account deficits of large magnitude over the past decades. however, we also know right from the, the words of president g himself and from other bricks leaders, that they are engaged in efforts to sort of move off of export growth strategies. and the more towards domestic demand generated growth strategies. and in so far as they succeed in doing that, the idea, the coupling from a dollar or at least lessening their dollar dependence, will become much more realistic to, to put into practice. yes, some people estimate that china won't even be able to satisfy domestic demand. and as regards planning, actually since you right, so much about planning and your desire for planning actually in the united states, how can companies in se asia and the global south plan given this sanction regime that you allude to changing every other day? i mean, they say japanese tronics firms don't know how to plan to make things given

that they don't know when the next chinese chip is going to be sanctioned. yeah, that's a good point. i mean, i think the key for china and foundations that we'd like to be engaged in a, a kind of a long term. and indeed plan of all are predictable trading relation with china is concerned. the real key is to sort of heighten domestic autonomy. you might say, or something approaching on tarkey right, are self sufficiency when it comes to the capacity either to produce most or all of what you need right there at home. or to be engaged in tight trade relations with other nations that can supply whatever needs are not able to satisfy domestically or domestic production or domestic supply. so, training block form, say, between china, russia, maybe some other bricks, members, maybe all the other bricks members and maybe a few other nations. it's highly likely that you would actually have the makings of

a kind of odd heart within that particular training block. as we know, russia has vast natural resources as well as a great deal of technical know how we also know, of course, that africa is very resource rich in china in particular. but also russia have been expanding their trade relations and their economic relations with africa. and, you know, between africa, russia and china, it would seem to me that you got the same sort of diversity of resource availability. and maybe even a greater degree of diversity of resource availability and productive capacity than you have say, in north america or in europe. as a whole, so if a block of some sort of form among those countries, there would be simply no need for them to rely on the dollar or to be dollar dependence. and thus there would be no real danger posed to them by dollar related sanctions. but everything, of course, rides on whether they can actually do that. they've of course, the resource capacity to do all that. and they got the productive,

as it gets to say, to technical know how to do all of that. the real key is going to be whether they have this or elliptical capacity to do it. i do, i mean you advise ro, connor elizabeth warren a, or see the progressive gorgeous. what. what do they say when you say things like you've just said to me because they all voted for more military aid to ukraine? a receiver to $40000000000.00 and military aid. i mean they've, they've turned around the 1.3 trillion spending bill from 2018 that specifically said the, as of regiment with their nazi ties could be, were the ones being sanctioned in effect. what did they say to you when you say, look, some of these policies may unite and make the u. s. declining bow. basically the context in which subjects of that kind of come up when i'm talking with these, these legislators is a little bit different than the current context that you and i are talking about

these things in connection with. so in general, when i talking to american policymakers, progressive legislators, i'm talking more about the need for a kind of re diversification of and a re, let's say autonomy or all harkey restoring set of policies for the american economy . right. i mean, the us itself used to have a very diversified economy and it used to be able to produce most of what it needed for itself. and in fact, it was the out sort of thing that was kind of carried on by capital here in the u. s, sort of essentially seeing lower wage labor abroad. they're brought about the sort of hollowing out of the american economy. so when i talk to legislators here, i say, you know, actually a certain degree or greater to be about on the part of non american economies. and closer relations among non american economies, that would accompany a sort of real conversation of the american economy would actually be good for everybody. it would be good for the world itself, right?

there's been a great deal of dysfunction in the relations between the u. s. and other economies worldwide, and part of, i think restoring health is restoring a certain degree of self sufficiency to all of the economies. or, you know, reasonably size trading blocks worldwide. and in that context, i think they're quite receptive to what i'm suggesting. we haven't, i haven't talked with any of these legislators about the current war itself or about us sanctions or anything like that that, that i think all of their boats in that connection have to be sort of understood in relation to the politics of washington. and that's just not something that i'm very much engaged in, but there's something connected there because of course, that money is being recycled through these big multinational weapons companies. and you want money to go into infrastructure and debt. you want to create that order key that you, you speak of. i mean, i don't know where to start or whether to be ironic about joe biden,

talking about rail links on the east coast of the united states when i'm talking to you from dubai. and the whole of the middle east is engaged in massive solar projects. china to the east to this studio is, is, i mean, you can't underestimate the amount that they're working on, or whether president lula is stopping of all the deforestation in the amazon. we're happy with joe biden, so little a railway link. he's talking about on the east coast. well, i'm somewhat happy with it. of course, i'm happier about it because it's part of a much larger package of initiatives that he'll be pursuing. it might be worth noting in this connection. that part of while i'm not really engaged in the politics of washington, one thing i am aware of is that there is a kind of growing reading. there's some, are some republicans to sort of join forces with certain democrats on various infrastructure bills, various productive renewal type bills. back is a major piece of legislation that i crafted or wrote on,

on the one hand. and mark of rubio is a republican in the senate is where the war comes into this war. but at least defense spending. one way to get republicans on board with the restoration of americans, productive capacity. both in and infrastructural sense and an industrial sense is by pointing out to them that a country that loses its industrial capacity and it's productive capacity, becomes much weaker, right? than an economy that has a robust productive capacity. and so there's sort of appeal that you have to make to these republicans a sort of adjacent to a national security or defense really, the tight rope at that present to us progressives of course, is you know, you don't want in any way to be encouraging militarism or imperialism, or adventure ism of the times that the u. s. is engaging a lot in recent decades to its own detriment. but at the same time, you want to keep republicans interested in productive capacity. and the only way,

at least initially to get their attention on that is to sort of point out the national security significance in fairness, in fantasy professor, it's the republicans, a few republicans voted against these tens of billions was $66000000000.00 approved by congress. last year, i don't know how many billions of public money it was. republicans anti war in ukraine. republicans known only a few. the great majority of the great bulk of republicans are still very much very pro war, very pro defense, very pro national security. even g to west, there's just a smaller i sort of marginal group of republicans who in voting against the war against defense expenditures. well, i mean, it's hard. i didn't really kind of say, you know what we should do. we should take the stuff where we're selling the saudis, and obviously saudi arabia, in the u, a refusing biden's calls to increase oil production,

which is what washington white house wanted and broke on with used to be going ahead with the yeah, let's punish these countries when lowering prices an increasing production. and this is all in the context of the perez reforms of the democrats to be able to get lobbying from fossil fuel companies. i mean, i, i don't think the congress congressman kind of can be one together with those folks who want to penalize saudi arabia. i mean send the arms from that to your grain, da zalinski, which is what ro connor was tracing. yeah, i think, well, there's a long standing of course, concert on the part of many democrats with those sort of ongoing support that we've been giving to the current saudi regime. and there's kind of growing concerned among some of the more progressive democrats about the sort of support that's being led to the more right wing elements of because really government as well. and of course, as we know, right, the more right elements of the israeli government are putting out feelers to and

looking to sort of establish some kind of alliance with saudi arabia itself. so they don't think they don't see the relevance of the green new deal. i mean, just forgetting the fossil fuel emissions of the us military, which are unfathomable, in terms of how much will these aircraft carriers and miss up production to do what they do to the environment. they don't see that the exploitation of l. n. g gas refracting jo biden's, obsession with racking is attract, call it, sending it to europe and the cost of that to the environment. none of the progressive caucus understand, i don't think it's true actually. i think they do see the relevance and i think what they're doing is they're thinking in terms of sequencing, right? they're all pushing, they're all, all in or a complete transition to renewables. but they also recognize that that's going to take about 5 to 7 years at the least, and maybe up to a decade. and so they're trying to keep energy prices down during that transition precisely because when energy prices go up, that gives a didn't comfort to republicans who are trying to sort of quash the move toward

a green economy and trying to expand fracking and other things. and that's where you're in the u. s. i don't, by the way, see any obsession on job biden's part with ranking. i do see an obsession of our go mansion who joe biden has to kind of keep, you know, happy in order to keep him on board with various pieces of legislation. but i think that buying himself at this point is all in the transition. there's simply a recognition that takes a while and if the best way to, you know, kind of keep that transition under way, is to take away the strength that some republicans have when energy prices go up. professor robert hawkins. l you the more from the advisor, joy alexandria, cause your cortez and elizabeth warren after this break. ah, ah . since you started the military operation in ukraine,

we were told the west is in lock step unity. in this case, unity means following orders without question from washington. well, that unity has begun to unravel. new europe in old europe are clearly not marching in thing with welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the edward cornell, professor of law and adviser to alexander, kazi cortez and elizabeth warren. professor robert hawk, it as an advisor to these progressive circle, the icons of the, i don't know, m s, m b, c. not cnn. so much like elizabeth warren and ro, connor and so on. clearly you see them as making a difference and that there is

a clear difference between the 2. but what do you make a fan of the criticisms from the left, which they know the fact that they are actively supporting the war spending trillions of public money while 40000000 go hungry. i know it's been said that you can't find a bridge and i know you write about infrastructure and the need for more bridges. you can find a bridge in the united states without someone sleeping under it. and none of these progressive caucus people tried to put medicare and some kind of health care system into the massive spending bills that they've been past. the huge jumble of spending bills, i all made it as a, in terms of a, made it a veto position. and what is the i, i don't, i don't know of anybody who we claim that the progressive all of the number of parties actively supporting any of this stuff. people like ro and people like l. c . will vote in favor of legislation that there are sort of massive majorities,

alas, in congress pushing. but what you, if you actually follow a o c intermedia up here in cities or instagram post or whatever. or if you follow con, um they're all talking about renewed deal transformation. they're all talking about restoration of american productive capacity restoration, middle class, building jobs, restoration of or bringing about of pretty health care and for higher education as well as re entry level education. all americans, that's what they're actively pushing and actively supporting. and anytime they happen to join the democrats to vote in favor of some other piece of legislation that people like you were, i might be less inclined to support. they're doing that largely by way of sort of going along to get along in order to avoid having to fight over that. so i understand they retracted the letter o'connor, and i see that they tried to school for negotiations. a received from clips on youtube got walk around without being shouted. heck had saying that you're going to

start world war 3. what is the role and you've been around, you know, you worked with your i, m f you as well as being a scholar. what's it like the role of lobbying by big companies to destroy and attack in effect, your scholar, he, we know that, as i said, tom perez, in 2018 permitted fossil fuel lobbying to democrats. is it is a problem here that so many of the initiatives you want to happen, they will, they are going to happen because your initiatives are aimed at making the united states more equitable. and always to have those who are very rich and low being clearly don't want to give away their money. well that's of course the struggle, right? i mean, yes, the, the efforts of the lobbyists, the efforts of the various sectional interests that are paying are higher on them and paid the lobby a start upwards, massive. and of course, as you know, own most of the ministry media here in the u. s. as well,

so they tend to not only to bobby directly, various members of congress, but they also shape the message and shape or determine the framing of the public discourse as conducted over most of the meetings of social media sites and meet mean media sites. and that's of course, right, and this is nothing new, and this is not surprising, right? karl marx wrote almost 2 centuries ago at this point about how that's how it works, right? the particular class interests tend to purchase and dominate most of the sort of institutions of the culture as well as most of the institutions of the quality intend to make the job of those who are trying to fight for some kind of change. all of them were difficult, but be that as many we keep, you know, we persist and we every now and then have significant victories. i think we're probably headed for a sort of a older shifter us a significant change of the sort of new deal magnitude. we're not there yet,

but i think we're getting there. and certainly the sorts of calamities that are being brought on by the right wingers are making our job a lot easier. frankly, it's a lot easier to appeal to folks when you have to do a sort of point to what's happening around them to make your case, which is what we do. well. tucker carlson on fox news, news, trumpeting peace negotiations rather than war. i don't know when you mentioned the media, how many television sets you get through. i don't know whether you destroy them in the debt ceiling is the issue. congress people then reflected, mirrored by august in order for mainstream circle, mainstream media over there that is owned by 6 companies, just explained to way it's all nonsense in the main what we're hearing about the dead ceiling. this silly nonsense for a very straightforward reason. it's rooted an old anatomy to congress 19 that was passed in 1970 the liberty bond act. that particular act was passed at

a time when the president was the only government official who actually formulated a budget. congress essentially conferred a great deal of budgetary discretion on the president in those days. and so the debt ceiling that was put into that liberty bond at which of course, was inactive during a time that the u. s. was spending a great deal more than it had previously done in preparation for the world war. one mobile is ation was a way for congress to sort of remind the president that it has some kind of oversight role. all of that change trying to mentally, almost 50 years ago in 1974. when congress passed a new, an accident, which essentially you totally changed the budgetary or the budget making regime here in the us. ever since 974. congress itself has formulated the budget, and that budget is a legal inaccurate every year that it's passed. it's a legal anatomy and it includes not only all the expenditures, the federal government, but all the revenue raising and all the methods of revenue raising,

including taxation and bond issuance id debt undertaking. and so in effect, the budget is its own debt ceiling. so all these journalists a stupid, then i'm not even talking to people. yeah. either, either they're stupid or they're willfully ignoring this because they enjoy the theater. it's hard to know why they're doing this. i can see what the politicians do, right? they seem to enjoy the circus, right. and they like to grandstand and this gives them a great opportunity to grants and on both sides. right. but i don't understand why journalists don't point this out because it's fairly straightforward. it's not particularly r gain or recondite or difficult to understand, right. it's very straightforward. but 974 law supersedes the 1917 law. and in consequence, the budget is its own debt ceiling. i think that's where i think you made that point very, very clearly. do you find yourself triangulating on the green? you deal with these people on the hill that again you you advise eminent

progressives as they don't. why some sell out by others. do you get triangulating green wash? quite a bit. we had no less than an advisor to now king charles the 3rd going underground . people can look up the interview and rumble. he was har, if i told us that it was the whole thing, the big corporations are basically just lying. and presumably king charles knows. but he's been told in britain that he kind of a talk about it. is that why you'll hear that sometimes something we use as you written it in a vague, but i would like to be made aware of it. is congress members if they want, if they ask me or they want to know, and a very minimal degree on the politics, like if a choice of words looks less likely to raise red flags in the eyes at some republican congress members, i might use a different word, but essentially i just sort of work on the merits of these things and don't pay that much attention to the public discussion about them or how various other politicians might be using them. i know that i've seen myself, you know,

sort of caricature bit by right wing media. and that usually just is more amusing than anything else. well, i should just finish on crypto currency because you started on sanctions and you've written that, you're not that and i would buy it all, but actually give to i give it to be, i mean, devise a one of the centers of crypto as being an amazing method for companies and individuals to get around these us sanctions and july free trade to a good across the global. so you, you think the crypto is on the way out? you know, you don't think it as a future. i think crypto has a future within very small circles. the crypto is not going to become a beach or form of currency. and i think it's going to go the way in the old wildcat bank notes that used to be the primary or currency here in the u. s. in the 900 century. and what happened was, every bank issued its own paper currency,

all the people who spent paper currency had to use all these different paper currency, some of which were discounted, a great deal relative to face value, others which were discounted less. they constantly fluctuated wildly and value and so forth. there were just lots of them saying that there was a criptos, but as soon as the u. s. issued its own paper dollars, notice the green back during the civil war. all of that stuff sort of went by the wayside for the most part and the only people to retain using those guarantees were relatively small circles. i think when the fed begins issuing a digital dollar, maybe a plan that i would look for it over the last 5 years, maybe. well, but whenever it does, once it does that, i think wildcat crypto will go the way of the wildcat bag. know what will the boy, if well, the point me if the body sanctions sees a type sanctions is applied to serious a are applied across the global south of latin america or african southeast asia. and most of your asia does business with countries that washington sanctions and

has does it. and obviously it goes the roth of the us sanctions acts and just says, we'll, we'll trade in somebody else. well then we're then we're back to where we were before. right? that's back to the question whether the dollar will retain its dominance. i think the dollar real reason it's done is precisely or as long as other countries depend on us citizens buying their products for their rope bottles. but as soon as they become less dependent on american consumer markets or their growth, at that point, the dollar ceases to be a global currency and goes back to be a national currency, which is what should've been all law in, which is what it was right before the 1940s professor robert hogan. thank you. great, thanks so much. i'm going to be with you. that's it for the show. will we back to media? it's not sent in your country, but you can always had to channel going underground tv on rumble, dot com to watch new and old episodes going underground c versus the

ah ah, when i went to the wrong one, i'll just don't the room. yes. to shape out the thing because the kid an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground in rattle had now a bundle on their back. i'm number. oh,

those are those did you do actually? shows him you please go to finish, to move your clue to just to use the way you have. good. let's go to general time i was here. ah, we will work closely together at the un within the framework of the security council. we're brazil is currently a non permanent member. brazil and india should become permanent members of the un security council. pass the message from russian 4 minutes to fill out a lot of properties, thoughts a 5 day trip across last in america with pc war tony.

yeah. and then has a new phase, as saudi arabia release, it's over $100.00 prisoners to be reunited with their families. we have for most folks, posted for the red cross with each other friends kissing the each other on before her children seeing their father. so thanks for the 1st time at the local here.