[000:00:00;00] a ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things considered on peter lavelle since you started the military operation and ukraine? we were told the west is in lock step unity. in this case, unity means following orders without question from washington. well that unity has begun to unravel. new europe in old europe are clearly not marching in sink. ah,

discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, jord samuel leon, budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and in st. petersburg we cross to alexander at 10. he is a senior lecture at saint petersburg state institute of technology or a gentleman crosswalk, rules and effect. that means you can jump any time you want and i always appreciated. i was go to church in budapest, 1st old europe, and no new york don't seem to be talking from the same hem sheet. george. i mean, we have, we have ma crone in his famous visit now to beijing and his, his return to france are talking about me questioning being a follower of america. and then in a better bach goes right after him. and so, no, no, no, no, we're, we're in block sync with washington here. i mean, it's kind of, it would be amusing that wasn't so dangerous that there are so many different messages going out of that. it's all to the prism for the most part, 3 ukraine and also to some degree taiwan george. this distinction between old

europe, new europe, was drawn 1st by donald rumsfeld, the late donald rumsfeld, secretary of defense under george w bush. and he saw that there was a very different approach taken towards the impending invasion of iraq by the traditional european powers who has been somewhat skeptical of the us adventures such as france, germany and to some extent, italy and the new europe, which was poland. the baltics and some of the former communist states. but now this is really now come out into the open, the polish prime minister, more of yes, his visit to washington last week. during his presto, with a, with a vice president come on the harris. he said that audio has tried to make peace with russia,

and only europe has been found wanting. what was needed was the new approach of the new europe, which had experience of communism, and therefore, knew exactly how to deal with russia. and so now you're suddenly seeing this, this alliance because of all the, or the, you know, the conductor of all of the ukraine venture has always been the united states. and, and the united states now has its allies, the end of poland, the baltics against some of the former communist states, who want this to escalate. they want to full scale war. i mean, more of yes, get pretty much says this is, this is a civilizational struggle against russia. so now you've got this bunch of people as, as you said, either this is over a dangerous and you know, somebody like micron was still has certain amount of common sense and saying, well, this makes, you know, this is ludicrous what was going on here. this is absolute in and out in our interest. he talks about strategic autonomy and the polls and the rest,

they know strategic autonomy. yes. act. okay. alexandra in st. petersburg is really quite interesting is because since the end of the cold war, the number of nato members is doubled. ok, now i guess, you know, you the numerically, that we think, well, it's stronger because it's bigger. but i would say reverse is actually weaker because you brought in these eastern players that don't actually bring much to the table when it comes to security. certainly not military. i mean, we have the baltic republics telling germans and italian dinner, but you said more percent more, but you know, they don't because they don't have it here. but if there is one party that is strengthens all through this and it's washington, this united states is the come out a much stronger power in there too because it can divide and conquer. i would center, i think the smaller states, particularly in the former communist areas of eastern europe. what they think they can do is by getting into this organization, into nato and into e u structures,

they think that they'll be able to then leverage their influence and pull these organizations towards their goals. which if it's a very, it's kind of strange. in particular, we with poland, so colon here wants to be confrontational with russia. confrontational with bella. ruth, and they apparently have designs on rebuilding their last empire from previous centuries . and they're very interested in whether they'll be able to regain territories, particularly live off now that ukraine is embroiled in this war. and they apparently are looking for ways to send peacekeepers into eastern ukraine, so called peacekeepers. so that would strengthen their we don't need to do that. they would only do that if they had one content supporting them that's with re, right, right. so they think they might be able to get washington to agree with this. if they're just going to be agreeable enough,

if they just stroke the egos of the american administration enough and sign off on all of their programs and their designs in eastern europe. so whether that's going to work, i'm not sure it doesn't seem like a very good plan. and it also doesn't seem like a very good plan given that poland is attempting to maintain a very traditional, conservative culture. and their ruling party is also very traditional and conservative, but that doesn't go along very well with sort of ultra liberal, liberal ideology coming out of washington coming out of brussels. that they're trying to force down on these traditional societies. so how they can get the empire and military aspects out of nato and the you without getting the social aspects of extreme liberalism. i'm not sure what their plan is for georgia. i'm used about this quite a bit because if you look at the hierarchy of institutions, you look at the, you and you look at nato, nato trumps everything. ok,

so it least temporary dispensation. ok. because the polls i, you know, the poland in the ball to republics because they have american backing. they can punch above their weight and they know it. ok. and, and they're taking advantage of here. and of course they put because they can punch about their weight. they can kind of, they can kind of shame old europe, which of course mo, chrome, the mac rounds of this world don't take lightly to that, but there may not be much he can do about it either george. yes, exactly, right. it is very interesting because of course, the woke biden administration absolutely tests the social policies of the government of poland, but is prepared to overlook it. vital has now made to state visits to poland. ha, there's only been there 2 years. he's already made to state visit, delivered to white belligerent addresses on the war and ukraine in poland. ab poland is welcomed all the time in the white house bowl and gets invited to the

democracy summit. hungary doesn't matter. so what's the difference between the 2 states? hunger is as conservative as a polish, a government, but hungry is not taking the same line on, on ukraine or so. therefore hunger is completely out of favor. but again, and again, the interesting thing with the, the baltic states that they are in good order. well, you know, hungary gets constantly attacked for it on the enlightened attitude towards what was sexual and transgender issue. but the resistance on the question of the gay marriage, i mean, hungary recognizes of gay civil unions. the baltic stage. don't know, even if they don't have k. so unit. nonetheless, the baltic states are always in favor with shoulder good. will also look on the line and in washington. so nato trumps all. yeah, exactly. you know, i'm glad you brought up a poems,

historical grievances when it comes to los territory. you know, when you look at the history, the last 2 centuries of eastern europe, everybody's borders have been changed a lot. ok, and they're not, they don't stand out there. but i mean this, this, this was a trip wire for europe because as a member of nato in good standing, it's machinations, could prove disastrous for everyone. and it seems, you know, when that, when the polls are given such a welcome in washington, it seems to be giving them an indication that they have a lot more leeway. then we'd like to think, what are your thoughts on that? because that again, this would be all laughable, but weren't so very dangerous. like to point out to everybody. i lived in poland for 10 years. ok. i understand the extremes, people can go. let's put it that way. elder. well, i am not quite convinced that poland is going to be able to get away with maintaining its traditionalism inside of nato. i think that perhaps they're being tolerated in this,

but it's temporary in the same way that the global is tolerated. china, until it became clear in the last few years to them that you know, the chinese are not going along with the globalist plan. they're not integrating into this liberal world order. and i think poland, it's expected that they will at some point submit to this. maybe maybe it's, you know, put on the back burner at the moment because of the conflict in ukraine, but i don't, i don't think they're going to be let off so easily. no one in the u. s. empire. and this trans atlantic empire has been led off in the end. so these new states, they're probably given a grace period of however many years a decade or 2. but i think the implications from washington, the pressure and the n g o is, are all going to come in? they're all at work. it's kind of like, you know, you have your job where they try to band the n jose from functioning or at least, you know,

get them label is being funded by for an actors which means working for the u. s. government effectively. and that wasn't tolerated well if you had that kind of action going on in poland, then there would be a stronger reaction against it from washington, d. c. but you know, i think they're slowly going to have to acquiesce to this. so all and has to make a choice, do they want their they want to pursue their imperial ambitions? or do they want to keep their traditional society? i don't think they're going to get away with both. sure. what's your thoughts on that? because hungry. it doesn't have, well, it doesn't, i wouldn't say it has territorial ambitions, but it certainly is concerned about how gary and minority is badly treated in, in ukraine. but, you know, we and in poland has these long claims and all of that. so the dispensation only works so far as you further the interests of empire after that, don't count on any kind of further support. i think. so i do think that what's key

here is your position on the american empire. i mean, george is an interesting case because yes, the americans came down like a ton of bricks and g o low. but what had triggered it was a trigger that was the georgia had refused to go along with the sanctions regime. they were expecting georgia to fully support the whole nature runs. second, actually because our role georgia and ukraine were offered nato membership on the same day in 2008. and suddenly a was georgia, which not only was not going along with sanctions, was, was each and even suggesting that he was going to lift the ban on air travel with russia. this was really, you know, insult of injury. so that's really was, was key and all of the, so i think bowman can get away with it. it's socially retrograde of views, as long as it's sufficiently anti russia. and i don't see that changing. i mean it's, this is something in owen's dna or, you know, what's going to happen is that,

you know, when everything is said and done, they're still going to be anti russian in the you, it's still not going to accept their political order. so they're on a losing and no matter how you ok, it's lose lose. there's no win win here. when you take this position here though, you can get in the headlines and like, and again, you know, they want to be at the adult table. they want to be one of the power break brokers . they only the power broker if the west allows them. and that's where we stand right now. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, well can you or discussion on some real new stay with our tea? ah ah, i look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings,

except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification for should be very careful about of personal intelligence at the point, obviously is to create trust or rather than fear, i would like to take on various job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with obama protect his own existence with oh, during the 2nd well, when nazi occupied, poland valencia was a farming region. today, it's part of ukraine. between 1943 and 945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army led by stepan bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the murders were particularly horrific and

brutal villages were burned and property. looted the bellini. a massacre is without doubt, one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history, while ukrainian politicians are still reluctant to talk about these events. how to modern day ukraine and poland view. this tragedy of the past. and why does the memory of belinda still divide people? ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter la bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. ah ok, let's go back down center in saint petersburg. a strategic autonomy that was already brought up in this program here. and it's something that mccomb not only talked about last week,

but he's actually made reference to it in this using the same words or the same concept over the last few years. it's not relatively new though, the neocons in washington in london in brussels. they take umbrage to this. and i think from a lot of common sense, people, certainly realist thinkers. but it's saying that it's not really a big deal. it's not an epiphany. the problem is, is that why is he saying it now? because isn't he a day late in a buck short, i mean has, in france, germany, the italy of the other great powers in europe. and they've just really had to make their peace with the u. s. in being dependent on american energy of their trade and trade relationships that they have. i mean, countries like france have very limited options right now, and it's actually humiliating to talk about autonomy when you've already given it up. alexander, i would suggest that actually mac crohn isn't late. he is early because i think he

is seeing what's happening in china with them rising to being an important world player in a way that we haven't seen before in political situations like making peace between saudi arabia and iran. so i think he's starting to read the tea leaves and he sees that the influence of washington is declining. the influence of beijing is increasing. so the rhetoric in itself, it's just a rhetoric, like you said, there's not a whole lot that they can do. frances, too deeply embedded in this nato e u system, which the strings are being pulled from washington d. c. and there's not much he can do about that. however, the rhetoric i think does indicate that he sees the way that the future could could change. so he is at least trying in a rhetorical way to get france on to the right footing for that kind of a thing. he's trying to not alienate china because he sees that they're going to be

very important over the next several decades. so near term it doesn't really mean anything. well, i mean, it was interesting here, george is that um, i think what alexander, they've been very a very interesting to me. but the, the more that china becomes an independent actor on the world stage, the more the u. s. for crowds and swarms. it's so called allies. i mean, it's interesting is that the, the, the, when china is going around the world around saudi arabia and the events and syria going on, you know, the, the u. s. it squeezes its allies even more to stay in line is this is it is creating this new cold war and a new iron curtain. and it's, you know, it's liberal democracies that are setting everybody else and trying to, and the was just trying to concentrate its control over its allies, nor thing to go ahead. no. that, that's exactly right. because now it's very striking that more of yet scape an anal

in a bad book, both within days of the hours of macros interview declared that taiwan is of absolutely fundamental vital to existential interest to us. europeans then ultimately clearly saying, oh, this is ross. you know, absolutely, you know, there are, there's no daylight at all between our position and that of the united states. and one micron was the, this thing is that we are going to get dragged into this war with, i won because, you know, the, the arc of the, of this conflict with china is exactly the same as the arc of the conflict with russia. and we kind of got dragged along with this. we have this alliance, we can't get ourselves out of. it was so entangled in this alliance that once america gets into this, a conflict in the taiwan straits. we will inevitably be a part of it. and, you know, he, he suggests that it may be, you know, it's going to be very difficult for us to get out of it. and it, and it is obviously very difficult,

precisely because of poland and the rest of them, including germany with alina. but they want to be in a counseling, and it is getting worse. i mean that this conflict in the taiwan straits has got worse. not because of anything china has done, but it's all been done by the united states. it's a deliberate policy of provocation, and macro does see it. we're getting dragged into this. well, it's, it's really interesting here is that i am i surmise, alexander, that mc crown is been reflecting upon the fact how did friend skidded soap into this mess with ukraine of no strategic interest whatsoever to the, to nato, to the e. u. certainly not. france. ok, and he sees that, you know what the quagmire that nato was created for you frame they're going to do the same thing with taiwan. so he's kind of saying, you know, we, we see where this can go. but what's in seems to me is that, you know, what are the strategic into so francis reaching interest of, you know, of the,

of the, you, it's not really about that. it's about a lead capture. it's about a better box. ok. it's about the polish prime minute, it's their interest in their, in their pecking order in the empire. that's when it's all about here. i mean, when you, it's really quite bewildering. you have the, the german foreign minister, basically a spitting in the face of the french president. what? because her, you elite interests are at stake. not necessarily ideological. alexander. oh, we do know that all these people, they socialize with each other at these conferences. they fly around on each other's jazz. there old great friends. they do unethical things during their elections in order to be able to continue attending these clubs. if they're so unfortunate as to actually lose an election, then they just get hired by various agencies or get appointed to some office so they can continue hanging out with their friends. so i think your point is the

right spot on. they're trying to keep up appearances among all of their buddies in this system. and it's kind of, it's just like any large organization that has an overbearing culture that it forces down on people. people are going to go along with this culture no matter what they may have thought about it before. money might influence their thinking on the matter. so yeah, i think that they're trying to keep that going. i don't think that france is really going to be able to do much with though, regardless of what they start to notice. macros might be kind of unnerved by the really sort of crazy things that the americans are starting to say. part of it may be that parts of the as a believe, particularly from washington d. c. they're just coming off as not being competent at all. so you have these mum blurs like lloyd austin, who somehow didn't know about these leaks of their secret plans for weeks. you have

antony blink and whose every 2nd word he says is, and you have a vice president who has never put to sensical words together. and you have a president who is suffering from dementia. so these, these folks are not, they're not sending their best. and i think that some people just on a basic human level in europe are starting to lose patience with these guys. yeah, well, if it goes back to the vin, you know, saying, you know, the inter agency consensus, george, because that's really what it's about. and that's what's really scary about all of this is and we can have all these, you know, that we can have. so, you know, sergeant schultz in abilene a bad about can list trust, you know, they're, they're all entertaining because they're so incompetent. ok. but the inter agency consensus move on. yes. i think that's right. i mean, it's up, we can easily get distracted by the all of the weaknesses and the foibles of leaders. but there, underneath it there is, you know, we're looking for want of

a better word, a deep state that is, does move relentlessly. and clearly has this agenda, which is to provoke a conflict. i mean, they are desperate to provoke this conflict with russia. and then with china, i think my microns diagnosis is right. there will be a conflict with china. i mean, there's a question. i mean, just as a conflict with russia, we're heading towards a conflict with china because the united states wants it and there's nothing you can do to stop it just as then, you know, with the people like victoria newland, the. the permanent fixture in washington english is, goes one, wanted ministration to another. and what is she doing in all of these administrations? the same thing is always provoking conflict advancing american interest. what she sees with american interest by provoking prices to which then america is always the answer and that's how they will move towards china. so you know that there may well

be voices within europe. that will say that again, we agree with macro, but there's really very little they can do, but there is a trans atlantic elite you know, the, the, the military in europe is thoroughly integrated into nature. the in the military, industries in europe are always a kind of non existence, i call macros. and yeah, we really need to get our military. the stays off the ground and then poland says, yeah, but we're not buying anything from europe. we're buying exclusively from the united states. i was going to be, i was saying, we don't want to buy any of these thinking your friendship planes. we want to buy our planes from washington. so it's unfortunate that you know, you can just simply say, yeah, this is, this is really stupid or bon says the same thing, but the transit times a gravy train is during the cold war is go toe to toe with a peer power. you don't do that, you could have the, you know, you can have afghanistan, you can a fighting in africa, but you don't go toe to toe. and this is a,

a break. and i think maybe it has something to do with, you know, we have a empty president, we have an empty suit for president because a lot of friends and say, yeah, i know what you guys want to do, but it's my presidency is my legacy. and i'm not going to go down, i'm not going to be on the broad down the empire here. there's no breaking these people right now. and so having nato going against russia toe to toe, one's going to win and one's going to lose. that was the less than you should was one thing you didn't do during the cold war, they have broken that taboo. alexander, as i suggested, i think that the people running the show in washington are not altogether that smart. i think that they've inherited systems power institutions from people who are smarter and more competent than they are and they didn't know what to do with it. so at this point now that the u. s. is running out of soft power because of what happened in afghanistan. what's happening in ukraine is just defeat after

defeat for this us empire. so i think that now they're being, they're just flailing around. they don't know what to do. their sanctions have backfired. and so their only option now is to threaten and to bully and to suggest, well, maybe we'll use military force because they don't have any tricks left up their sleeve. so that's effectively all these guys have left. they're not smart enough to come up with any new plans. they're not smart enough to come up with anything that could fix this changing situation. they were handed a strategy down from previous generations and they don't know how to operate it in the changing world. yeah. well, i think that's probably the most depressing ending of this program of all time. okay. as all the time we have gentlemen, i want to thank my guest in in saint petersburg and in budapest when i think our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember across the dock

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