where, when the situation like we're talking about is actually the dominant thing and not necessarily what's happening with the consumer price index and domestic inflation stuff. a consequence of other things like that. not to say that that is what's going to happen in the near term. i'm still a dollar bowl in the short term release. in the medium term. i think that the power has been very successful at collapsing credit markets around the world. and that's going to cause a shift back into the united states into the dollar. and we've already seen that we've seen treasury yields drop. we've seen the dollar, even a firm up over where it was during the trumpet ministration. like we are in a much different place than all the headlines are making it out to be right now. so just, it's like it's a process, it's a, it's a thing, it's happening. we should be aware of it, but it's not necessarily going to be like the hemingway thing or. well, how did you go broke slowly then all at once, i think that the dollar will slowly lose his reserve currency status. but the all at once part is still a long way away. tom, it's been

a pleasure. many thanks for speaking to a cheer political market analysts tom longer. thank you. thank you and thank you for joining us. hey, anot scenes, national went back the tell me, ah, i'm after events here. welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the united arab emirates here in the mid least economies. a booming, but the outlook for what some call the post ukraine dying us empire, vassal states in europe. things may not be so rosy while 40000000 will go hungry tonight in the usa, the media may be talking about something called a debt ceiling. they probably shouldn't be, says one economist who advised congresswoman alexandria kazi, a cortez,

amongst others. amidst his fight to end the climate emergency. professor robert hawkins cornell, edward cornell, professor of law and professor public policy cornell university and senior counsel at westwood capital investment bank joins me now from new york city. thank you so much, professor. all get for coming on. yeah, the world's financial markets. they've been concerned about the f o m c, monetary policy interest rates. that doggie will affect the financial, the indices around the world. but i mean, here, maybe in the global south is de dollarization the environment. and the issues of the impact of ukraine is bricks. bank and chang. i cooperation organisation, movement occurs. what do you think the impact of ukraine will be on e, u. u. s. economies. thanks, i should be with you. i think i'm either a number of distinct. i think effects that are worth tracing. what is, as you suggested, there is a good deal more talk now about the dollarization that there used to be, i think largely going to the back of

a number of the brit nations and other nations as well. are trying to kind of get out from under the u. s. dollar as the sort of principal, trans national cur. and of course, the reason for that in turn is that the, the role of the dollar in the global economy enables us to exert a good deal of leverage through there. there is, however, one possible sort of it to that, that might stand in the way. and i think what it's going to do as far as the bricks, in particular, china, to essentially make some sort of so called hard choices as they say here in the u. s, so the thing about the dollars global roll is that it's actually been in a certain sense helpful to china and other economies who's growth model has been an export lead growth model. the reason being that the dollars of course, over valued in virtue of its role in the global economy. and that, of course, makes american exports more expensive than they would otherwise be. and it makes other nations exports less expensive to americans. at least they would otherwise be,

and that's course why the u. s. has been encouraging current account deficits of large magnitude over the past decades. however, we also know right from the words of president g, himself and from other bricks leaders, that they are engaged in efforts to sort of move off of export growth strategies and more towards domestic demand generated growth strategies. and in so far as they succeed in doing that, the idea of the coupling from a dollar or at least lessening their dollar dependence, will become much more realistic to, to put into practice. yes, some people estimate that china won't even be able to satisfy domestic demand. and as regards planning, actually since you write so much about planning and your desire for planning actually in the united states, how can companies is how these dasia and the global south plan given this sanction regime that you allude to changing every other day. i mean, they say japanese electronic firms don't know how to plan to make things

given that they don't know when the next chinese chip is going to be sanctioned. yeah, that's a good point. i mean, i think for china and foundations that would like to be engaged in a, a kind of a long term. and indeed plan of all are predictable trading relation with china is concerned. the real key is to sort of heighten domestic autonomy, you might say, or something approaching on tarkey right, are self sufficiency when it comes to the capacity either to produce most or all of what you need right there at home, or to be engaged in tight trade relations with other nations that can supply whatever needs are not able to satisfy domestically or domestic production or domestic supply. so training block form, say between china, russia, maybe some other bricks, members, maybe all the other bricks members and maybe a few other nations. it's highly likely that you would actually have the makings of

a kind of all tarkey within that particular training block. as we know, russia has vast natural resources as well as a great deal of technical know how we also know, of course, that africa is very resource rich in china in particular. but also russia have been expanding their trade relations and their economic relations with africa. and, you know, between africa, russia and china, it seems to me that you got the same sort of diversity of resource availability. and maybe even a greater degree of diversity of resource availability and productive capacity than you have say, in north america or in europe as a whole. so if a block of some sort of form among those countries, there would be simply no need for them to rely on the dollar or to be dollar dependence. and thus they would be no real danger posed to them by dollar related sanctions. but everything, of course, rides on whether they can actually do that. they've of course, the resource capacity to do all of that. and they've got the productive capacity to

get to say, to technical know how to do. all of the real key is going to be whether they have the sort of political capacity do it. i do, i mean you advise ro, connor elizabeth warren. oh, see the progressive gorgeous. what. what do they say when you say things like you've just said to me because they all voted for more military aid to ukraine or a receiver to $40000000000.00 and military aid? i mean they've, they've turned around the 1.3 trillion spending bill from 2018. that specific be said the as of regiment with their nazi ties could be, were the ones being sanctioned in effect. what did they say to you when you say, look, some of these policies may unite and make the u. s. a declining bow. basically the context in which subjects of that kind come up when i'm talking with these, these legislators is a little bit different than the current context that you and i are talking about

these things in connection with the. so in general, when i talking to american policymakers, progressive legislators, i'm talking more about the need for a kind of re diversification of and a re, let's say autonomy or all tarkey restoring set of policies for the american economy . right. i mean, the us itself used to have a very diversified economy and it used to be able to produce most of what it needed for itself. and in fact, it was the out sort of thing that was kind of carried on by capital here in the u. s, sort of essentially seeing lower wage labor abroad that brought about the sort of hollowing out of the american economy. so when i talk to legislators here, i say, you know, actually a certain degree or greater to be about homie, the part of non american bodies. and closer relations among non american economies, that would accompany a sort of real conversation of the american economy would actually be good for everybody. it would be good for the world itself, right?

there's been a great deal of dysfunction in the relations between the u. s. and other economies worldwide, and part of i think restoring health is restoring a certain degree of self sufficiency to all of the economies or reasonably size trading blocks worldwide. and in that context, i think they're quite receptive to what i'm suggesting. we haven't, i haven't talked with any of these legislators about the current war itself or about us sanctions or anything like that that, that i think all of their boats in that connection have to be sort of understood in relation to the politics of washington. and that's just not something that i'm very much engaged in, but there's something connected there because of course, that money is being recycled through these big multinational weapons companies. and you want money to go into infrastructure. and if you want to create that order key that you you speak of i'm, i mean, i don't know where to start or whether to be ironic about joe biden,

talking about rail links on the east coast of the united states when i'm talking to you from dubai, and the whole of the middle east is engaged in massive solar projects. china to the east to the studio is, is, i mean, you can't underestimate the amount that they're working on, or whether president lula is stopping of all the deforestation in the amazon. what happy with joe biden, so little a railway link he's talking about on the east coast. well, i'm somewhat happy with it. of course, i'm happier about it because it's part of a much larger package of initiatives that he'll be pursuing. it might be worth noting in this connection, that part of while i'm not really engaged in the politics of washington, one thing i am aware of is that there is a kind of growing readiness. some are some republicans to sort of join forces with certain democrats on various infrastructure bills, various productive renewal type bills back and

a major piece of legislation that i crafted for roadrunner on the one hand to mark and ruby is a republican in the senate on the other hand is devoted specifically to that and we're getting republican support for that. but here's where the war comes into this got the war, but at least defense spending. one way to get republicans on board with restoration of americans, productive capacity. both in and infrastructural sense and an industrial sense is by pointing out to them that a country that loses its industrial capacity in its productive capacity becomes much weaker. right, than an economy that has a robust productive capacity. and so there's the sort of appeal that you have to make to these republicans, a sort of adjacent to a national security or defense. really, the tight rope at that present to us progressives of course, is you know, you don't want in any way to be encouraging militarism or imperialism, or adventure ism of the times that the u. s. is engaging a lot in recent decades to its own detriment. but at the same time,

you want to keep republicans interested in productive capacity. and the only way, at least initially they get their attention on that is the sort of point out the national security significance. in fact, in fantasy in fantasy professor, it's the republicans, a few republicans voted against these tens of billions. what $66000000000.00 approved by congress last year. i don't know how many billions of public money it was. republicans anti war in ukraine, publicans know, can be only a few that the great majority, the great bulk of republicans are still very much very pro war, very pro defense, very pro national security, even g to west, there's just a smaller i sort of marginal group of republicans in voting against the war against defense expenditures. well, i mean, rose hall and i didn't really kind of say, you know what we should do. we should take the stuff where we're selling the saudis, and obviously saudi arabia, in the u,

a refusing biden's calls to increase oil production, which is what washington white has wanted. and rocha was used to be going ahead with the yeah, let's punish these countries when lowering prices an increasing production. and this is all in the context of the perez reforms of the democrats to be able to get lobbying from fossil fuel companies. i mean, i, i don't think that congress congressman kind of can be once together with those folk who want to penalize saudi arabia. i mean, send the on from that to your grain. does the landscape, which is what ro connor was tracing. yeah, i think, well, there's a long standing of course, concert on the part of many democrats with those sort of ongoing support that we've been giving to the current saudi regime. and there's kind of growing concerned among some of the more progressive democrats about the sort of support that's being last to the more right elements of because really government as well. and of course,

as we know, right, the more rightly elements of the israeli government are putting out feelers to and looking to sort of establish some kind of alliance with saudi arabia itself. so they don't think they don't see the relevance of the green new deal. i mean, just forgetting the fossil fuel emissions of the us military, which are unfathomable, in terms of how much will these aircraft carriers in miss productions do what they do to the environment. they don't see that the exploitation of l. n. g gas refracting jo biden's obsession with racking is detractors. call it sending it to europe and the cost of that to the environment. none of the progressive caucus understand, i don't think it's true actually. i think they do see the relevance, but i think what they're doing is they're thinking in terms of sequencing, right? they're all pushing, they're all, all in or a complete transition to renewables. but they also recognize that that's going to take about 5 to 7 years, at least, and maybe up to a decade. and so they're trying to keep energy prices down during that transition precisely because when energy prices go up,

that gives 8 uncomfort republicans who are trying to sort of quash the move toward a green economy and trying to expand fracking and other things. that's where you're in the u. s. i don't, by the way, see any obsession on job biden's part with ranking. i do see an obsession of our job mansion who joe biden has to kind of keep, you know, happy in order to keep him on board with various pieces of legislation. but i think that buying himself at this point is all in the green transition. there's simply a recognition that takes a while, and the best way to, you know, kind of keep that transition under way, is to take away the strength that some republicans have when energy prices go up. professor robert hawkins, you the more from the advisor to alex andrea cause your quote has and elizabeth warren after this break. ah, ah,

ah, and i to miss with the modem boss with key at the when or should just keep the process is to the dealer. molly, complete with lexi professional in the city and to walk you through the list of all the huge with ah, with

welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the edward cornell, professor of law and advisor to alexander kazi cortez and elizabeth warren. professor robert hawk it as an advisor to these progressive circle, the icons of the 8 it as a in terms of it made it a veto position. i, i don't, i don't know of anybody who would claim this actively supported any of this stuff. people like ro and people in favor of legislation that there are sort of massive majorities risk pushing. but when you, if you actually follow aol seen hosts or whatever, where people are o'connor, they're all talking about all americans. that's what they're actively pushing and actively supporting. and anytime they happen to join the democrats to vote in favor of some other piece of legislation that people like you or i might be less inclined

to support, they're doing that largely by insert, going long to get along in order to avoid having to find over that stuff, yeah, but i, i understand they retracted the letter o'connor and a will see that they tried to school for negotiations. they received from clips on you, you gotta walk around without being shouted. harold had saying that you're going to start world war 3. what is the role and you've been around, you know, you worked with you, i am f u as well as being a scholar. what's it like the role of law being by big companies to destroy an attack? in effect, your scholarly work. we know that, as i said, don't perez, in 2018 permitted fossil fuel lobbying to democrats. it is the problem here that so many of the initiatives you want to happen, they will, they are going to happen because your initiatives are aimed at making the united states more equitable and always to those who are very rich and well being clearly

don't want to give away their money. well that's of course the struggle, right? i mean, yes, the principal lobbyists, the entrance of the various sectional interest, pay or higher on the paper won't be a star wars massive and of course as you know, own most of the mainstream media here in the us as well. so they tend to, you know, not only to lobby directly, various members of congress, but they also shape the message and shape or determine the framing of the public discourse as conducted over most of the mean sort of social media sites and meet me media. and that's of course the fight, right? and this is nothing new and this is not surprising, right? karl marx wrote, you know, almost 2 centuries ago at this point. that's how it works, right? the particular class interests tend to purchase and dominate most of the sort of institutions of the culture as well as most of the institutions of all the intend

to make the job of those who are to fight for some kind of change. all of them were difficult, but be that as a matter, we keep, you know, we persist and we every now and then have significant factories. i think we're probably headed for a sort of a polar shift or a significant change of the sort of new deal magnitude. we're not there yet, but i think we're getting there. and certainly the sorts of calamities that are being brought on by the right wingers are making our job a lot easier. frankly, it's a lot easier to appeal to folks when all you have to do is sort of point to what's happening around them to make your case, which is what we do. well, tucker carlson on fox news, news, trumpeting peace negotiations rather than war. i don't know when you mentioned the media, how many televisions that you get through. i don't know whether you destroy them. the debt ceiling is the issue. congress people then reflected,

mirrored by august and ogre for mainstream circle, mainstream media over there that is owned by 6 companies, just explained to his way. it's all nonsense in the main what we're hearing about the dead ceiling. this feeling is nonsense for a very straightforward reason. it's rooted an old anatomy, the congress 19 that was passed in 1970 the liberty bond at that particular act was passed at a time when the president was the only government official who actually formulated the budget. congress essentially conferred a great deal of budgetary discretion on the president in those days. and so the debt ceiling that was put into about liberty bond at which of course, was inactive during a time that the u. s. was spending a great deal more than it had previously done in preparation for the world war. one mobile is ation was a way for congress to sort of remind the president that it has some kind of oversight role. all of that change trying to mentally, almost 50 years ago in 1974. when congress passed a new, an accident, which essentially you totally changed the budgetary or the budget making regime

here in the us, ever since 974. congress itself has formulated the budget, and that budget is a legal inaccurate every year that it's passed. it's a legal and accurate and it includes not only all the expenditures of the federal government, but all the revenue raising and all the methods of revenue raising, including taxation and bond issuance id debt undertaking. and so in effect, the budget is its own debt ceiling. so all these journalists a stupid, then i'm not even talking to people, you know, either, either they're stupid or they're wilfully ignoring this because they enjoyed the theater. it's hard to know why they're doing this. i can see where the politicians do it. they seem to enjoy the circus, right. and they like to grandstand and this gives them a great opportunity to grandstand on both sides. right. but i don't understand why journalists don't point this out because it's fairly straightforward. it's not particularly arcane or recondite or difficult to understand,

right. it's very straightforward. it's been 1974 law supersedes the 1917 law. and in consequence, the budget is its own debt ceiling. that's either you made that point very, very clearly. do you find yourself triangulating on the green? you deal with these people on, on the hill that again you, you advise eminent progressives as they don't. why some sell out by others. do you get triangulate between green wash? quite a bit. we had no less than an advisor to now king charles the 3rd on going underground people can look up the interview and rumble. he was horrified. he told us that it was the whole thing. the big corporations are basically just lying, and i presume the king charles knows, but he's been told in britain that he kind of a talk about it is that way you'll hear that sometimes something you say is accepted. and then you realize that you written it in a vague enough way that those who are powerful in those corporate lobbies actually

think what you are saying something different can make money out of it. i haven't experienced that yet. actually if it's happening, i'm not aware of it and i would like to be made aware of and it is happening. but happily thus far, i haven't been made aware of any such thing. i'm not, i don't know of any setting. it might be partly because my role is fairly limited, right? essentially, what i'll do is provide advice on policy matters to certain progressive congress members, if they want that they asked me or if they want to know and then they'll just sort of focus on that. and i focus on the merits of the thing and only to a very minimal degree on the politics. like if a choice of word looks less likely to raise red flags and the eyes of some republican congress. members, i might choose a different word, but essentially i just sort of work on the merits of these things and don't pay that much attention to the public discussion about them or how various other politicians might be using them. i know that i've seen myself, you know, sort of caricature or bit by right wing media. and that's usually just as more

amusing than anything else. well, i should just finish on crypto currency because you, we started on sanctions and you've written that. you're not that enamored by, by it all, but actually crypto argue be, i mean, devise a one of the centers of crypto as being an amazing method for companies and individuals to get round these us sanctions and allow free trade to occur across the global south. you think crypto is on the way out? you know, you don't think it as a future. i think crypto has a future within very small circles, but crypto is not going to become a beach reform of currency. and i think it's going to go away and the old wildcat bank notes that used to be the primary form of paper currency here in the u. s. and the 1900 century. and what happened was, was every bank issued its own paper currency and all the people who spent paper currency had to use all these different paper currency, some of which were discounted, a great deal relative to base value,

others which were discounted less. they constantly fluctuated wildly and value and so forth. there were just lots of them the same with us, but as soon as the us issued its own paper dollar, notice the green back during the civil war. all of that stuff sort of went by the wayside for the most part and the only people who retained or kept using those currencies were relatively small circles. i think when the fed begins issuing the digital dollar, maybe a little dock, a plan that i put before it over the last 5 years. maybe it won't. but whenever it does, once it does that, i think wildcat crypto will go the way of the wildcat bank. know what will the point if what will the point be if the buddy sanctions, cesar type sanctions is applied to syria? say, i replied across the global south is lead to magar african southeast asia, and most eurasia does business with countries, the washington sanctions and has, does it. and obviously, incur the wrath of the us sanctions acts and just says we'll,

we'll trade and somebody else will. then we're then we're back to where we were before. right. that's back to the question whether the dollar will retain its dominance. i think the dollar real reason it's dominance is precisely or as long as other countries depend on us citizens buying their products for their growth models . but as soon as they become less dependent on american consumer markets or their growth. at that point, the dollar ceases to be a global currency and goes back to be a national currency, which is what should've been all along in which is what it was right before the $900.00 forty's. robert, how good, thank you. great, thanks so much. i can get to be with you. that's it for the show will be back next saturday with another brand new episode. but until then you can still keep in touch my role as social media, which is not sensitive in your country, but you can always had to watch out going on the grantee on rebel dot com to watch new and old episodes going undergrad. so you very, ah ah,

since you started the military operation in ukraine, we were told the west was in lock step unity. in this case, unity means following orders without question from washington. well, that unity has begun to unravel. new europe in old europe are clearly not marching in sink ah ah, we will work closely together at the un, within the framework of the security council where brazil is currently a non permanent member. brazil and india should become permanent,

members of the un security council has the message from russian foreign minister, the again law for these thoughts, a 5 day trip across last new america. as iran announced the new era for the middle east, the push for peace in the face with the latest prisoners. that's the red cross that the crisis from the war torn country is being largely ignored by the international community. yeah, many is not making the headlines anymore. do we shouldn't forget about yemen because even you did call.