valinda, in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process, the murders were particularly horrific and brutal villages were burned and property looted. of eileen yamashita is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. my al ukrainian politicians still reluctant to talk about these events, how to modern day ukraine and poland view this tragedy of the past. and why does the memory of albania still divide people? ah, i hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things considered on peter labelle since you started the military operation? ukraine, we were told the west is in lock step unity. in this case,

unity means following orders without question from washington. well, that unity has begun to unravel. new europe in old europe are clearly not marching in sink. ah, discuss these issues and more. i'm joined by my guess, jord samuel leon, budapest. he's a podcast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and in st. petersburg, we crossed to alexander at am. he is a senior lecture at st. petersburg state institute of technology or a gentleman, crosswalk, rules and effect. that means you can jump any time you want and i always appreciated . i was go to church in budapest, 1st old europe and oh, new york don't seem to be talking oh, from the same him sheet george. i mean, we have, we have ma chrome in his famous visit now to beijing and his,

his returned friends are talking about like me questioning being a follower of america. and then in a better bach goes right after him. and so no, no, no, no, we're, we're in block sync with washington here. i mean, it's kind of, it would be amusing that wasn't so dangerous that there are so many different messages going out and, and it's all through the prism for the most part through ukraine and also to some degree taiwan. george. this distinction between old europe and new europe was drawn 1st by donald rumsfeld, the late donald rumsfeld, secretary of defense under george w bush. and he saw that there was a very different approach taken towards the impending invasion of iraq by the traditional european powers who has been somewhat skeptical of the us adventures such as france, germany and to some extent, italy and the new europe, which was poland. the baltics and some of the former communist states. but now this

is really now come out into the open, the polish prime ministers, more of yes, his visit to washington last week. during his presto, with a, with a vice president come on the harris. he said that ordeal has tried to make peace with russia, and only europe has been found wanting. well, what was needed was the new approach of the new europe, which had experience of communism and therefore, knew exactly how to deal with russia. and so now you're suddenly seeing this, this alliance because all the, or the, you know, the conductor of all of the ukraine venture has always been the united states. and, and the united states now has its allies, the end of poland, the baltics against some of the former communist states who want this to escalate. they want to full scale war. i mean, more of yes, get pretty much says if you know you is, this is

a civilizational struggle against russia. so now you go, this bunch of people have, as you said, either this is over a dangerous and you know, somebody like mark wrong. we still have certain mother common sense and a single this makes use is ludicrous what was going on. the of this is absolutely not in our interest. he talks about strategic autonomy and the polls and the rest. they know we want to know strategic autonomy. what we'll get to that in a 2nd. okay. alexandra in st. petersburg is really quite interesting is because since the end of the cold war, the number of nato members is doubled. ok. now i guess, you know, the numerically that we think, well it's stronger because it's bigger. but i would say reverse is actually weaker because you brought in these eastern players that don't actually bring much to the table when it comes to security. certainly not military. i mean, we have the baltic republics telling germans and italian dinner, but you said more percent more, but you know, they, they don't because they don't have it here. but if there is one part of that is

strengthens all through this and it's washington, this united states is that come out a much stronger power in there too because it can divide and conquer. i would center, i think the smaller states, particularly in the former communist areas of eastern europe. what they think they can do is by getting into this organization, into nato and into e u structures, they think that they'll be able to then leverage their influence and pull these organizations towards their goals. which if it's a very, it's kind of strange. in particular, we with poland, so colon here wants to be confrontational with russia. confrontational with bella. ruth, and they apparently have designs on rebuilding their last empire from previous centuries . and they're very interested in whether they'll be able to regain territories, particularly live off now that ukraine is embroiled in this war. and they

apparently are looking for ways to send peacekeepers into eastern ukraine, so called peacekeepers. so that would strengthen their we don't need to do that. they would only do that if they had walked into and supporting them. that's with free, right? right. so they think they might be able to get washington to agree with this. if they're just going to be agreeable enough, if they just stroke the egos of the american administration enough and sign off on all of their programs and their designs in eastern europe. so whether that's going to work, i'm not sure it doesn't seem like a very good plan. and it also doesn't seem like a very good plan given that all and is attempting to maintain a very traditional conservative culture. and their ruling party is also very traditional and conservative, but that doesn't go along very well with sort of ultra liberal, liberal ideology coming out of washington coming out of brussels. that they're trying to force down on these traditional society,

american backing. they can come above their weight and they know it either george. that's exactly right. it's is very interesting because of course, the woke by doing the ministry and absolutely detest the social policies of the government of poland, but is prepared to overlook it. biden is now made to state visits to poland. ha, there's only been there 2 years. he's already made to state visit, delivered to white belligerent addresses on the war and ukraine in poland. ab poland is welcomed all the time in the white house bowl and gets invited to the democracy summit. hungary doesn't matter. so what's the difference between the 2 states? hunger is as conservative as a polish. a government but hungry is not taking the same line on ukraine or so therefore hungry is completely out of favor. but again, and again,

the interesting thing with the, the baltic states that they are in good order. well, you know, i'm very gets constantly attacked for it's a unenlightened attitude towards what was sexual and transgender. sure. but he risen on the question of the gay marriage. i mean hungry recognizes of gay civil unions. the baltic stage don't. there's no, even if they don't have a soul unit. nonetheless, the baltic states are always in favor with charlton, but also on the line and in washington. so nato trump's all. yeah, exactly. it's, you know, i'm glad you brought up a poems, historical grievances when it comes to last territory. you know, when you look at the history, the last 2 centuries of eastern europe, everybody's borders have been changed a lot. ok. and they're not, they don't stand out there. but i mean this, this, this was a trip wire for europe. because as a member of nato in good standing on its machinations,

could disapprove disastrous for everyone. and it seems, you know, when that, when the polls are given such a welcome in washington, it seems to be giving them an indication that they have a lot more leeway than we like to think. what are your thoughts on that? because that again, this would be all laughable, but were so very dangerous. thank to point out to everybody. i lived in poland for 10 years. okay. i understand that the extreme is people can go, let's put it that way better. well, i am not quite convinced that poland is going to be able to get away with maintaining its traditionalism inside of nato. i think that perhaps they're being tolerated in this, but it's temporary in the same way that the global is tolerated. china, until it became clear in the last few years to them that you know, the chinese are not going along with the global this plan. they're not integrating into this liberal world order. and i think poland, it's expected that they will at some point submit to this. maybe maybe it's,

you know, put on the backburner at the moment because of the conflict in ukraine, but i don't, i don't think they're going to be lead also easily. no one in the u. s. empire. and this trans atlantic empire has been lead off in the end. so these new states are probably given a grace period of however many years a decade or 2. but i think the implications from washington, the pressure and the n g o is, are all going to come in? they're all at work. it's kind of like, you know, you have your job where they try to band the n g owes from functioning or at least, you know, get them label is being funded by for an actors which means working for the us government effectively. and that wasn't tolerated well if you had that kind of action going on in poland, then there would be a stronger reaction against it from washington, d. c. but you know, i think they're slowly going to have to acquiesce to this. so all and has to make a choice, do they want their, they want to pursue their imperial ambitions?

or do they want to keep their traditional society? i don't think they're going to get away with both. sure your thoughts on that because hungry. it doesn't have, well, it doesn't, i wouldn't say it has territorial ambitions, but it certainly is concerned about how gary and minority is badly treated in, in ukraine. but, you know, we and in poland has these long claims and all of that. so the dispensation only works so far as you further the interests of empire after that, don't count on any kind of further support. i think. so i do think that what's key here is your position on the american empire. i mean, george is an interesting case because yes, the americans came down like a ton of bricks and g o. lo, but what have triggered it was a trigger that was the georgia had refused to go along with the sanctions regime. they were expecting georgia to fully support the whole nathan, it runs 2nd. exactly because our role georgia and ukraine were offered nato

membership on the same day in 2008. and suddenly a was georgia, which not only was not going along with sanctions, was, was each and even suggesting that he was going to lift the ban on air travel with russia. this was really insult to injury so. so that's really was was key and all of this, so i think bone can get away with it. it's socially retrograde of views, as long as it's sufficiently anti russia. and i don't see that changing. i mean it, this is something in owen's dna or, you know, what's going to happen is that, you know, when everything is said and done, they're still going to be anti russian and the, you are still not going to accept their political order. so they're on a losing and no matter how you can lose lose, there's no win win here. when you take this position here though, you can get in the headlines and like, and again, you know, they want to be at the adult table. they want to be one of the power break brokers . they only the power broker if the west allows them. and that's where we stand

right now. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, well can you or discretion on some we'll need to stay with our team. the oh, a name. it wasn't simply put bombing in this. it will be a good call yet. no blessed assassin should be the she do. so do you know, i don't think she'll let us, but that's our growth net. i'm almost in mind. you may still removing that. you're going to want to continue listening. okay. and yes, so it's just purely, can you me see it is an instant for us all as i box, which i put in a 2nd,

a little boys. even lynch 6 going out of the 6 good jenna assistance images for the saw say on the present, ask you, i'm sure political mon, i southern to us on the 3rd, the english and medicare. not so much so much. nathan saw to see last bill is the one that you have, but they were not on their promises. plenty of run away. no payment. mm. the welcome back. across stock. were all things considered on peter bell?

this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. the ah ok, let's go back down center in saint petersburg, a strategic autonomy that was already brought up in this program here. and it's something that mc chrome not only talked about last week, but he's actually made reference to it in using the same words or the same concept over the last few years. it's not relatively new though. the neocons in washington in london in brussels, they take umbrage to this. and i think of from a lot of common sense people, certainly realist thinkers, simply saying that is not really a big deal. it's not an epiphany. the problem is, is that why is he saying it now? because isn't he a day late in a buck short? i mean, hasn't france, germany, italy, or the other great powers in europe?

and they've just really had to make their peace with the u. s. it being dependent on american energy of their trade and trade relationships that they have. i mean, countries like france have very limited options right now, and it's actually humiliating to talk about autonomy when you've already given it up. alexander, i would suggest that actually mac crohn isn't late. he is early because i think he is seeing what's happening in china with them rising to being an important world player in a way that we haven't seen before in political situations like making peace between saudi arabia and iran. so i think he's starting to read the tea leaves and he sees that the influence of washington is declining. the influence of beijing is increasing. so the rhetoric in itself, it's just a rhetoric, like you said, there's not a whole lot that they can do. frances,

too deeply embedded in this nato e u system, which the strings are being pulled from washington d. c. and there's not much he can do about that. however, the rhetoric i think does indicate that he sees the way that the future could could change. so he is at least trying in a rhetorical way to get france on to the right footing for that kind of a thing. he's trying to not alienate china because he sees that they're going to be very important over the next several decades. so near term it doesn't really mean anything. well, i mean, it was interesting here, george is that um, i think what alexander, they've been very a very interesting to me. but the, the more that china becomes an independent actor on the world stage, the more the u. s. for crowds and swarms. it's so called allies. i mean, it's interesting is it, that the, when china is going around the world around saudi arabia and the events and syria

going on, you know, the, the u. s. it squeezes its allies even more to stay in line is this is it is creating this new cold war and a new iron curtain. and it's, you know, it's liberal democracies are shutting everybody else and trying to the, was just trying to concentrate its control over its allies, nor thing to go ahead. no. that, that's exactly right. because now it's very striking that more of yet scape an anal in a bad book, both within days of the hours of macros interview declare that taiwan is of absolutely fundamental vital to existential interest to us. europeans, then other words, we clearly saying, oh, this is ross, you know? absolutely. you know, there, there's no daylight at all between our position and that of the united states. and when my call was to, this thing is that we are going to get dragged into this war with i one because, you know, the, the arc of the, of this conflict with china is exactly the same as the arc of the conflict with

russia. and we kind of got dragged along with this. we have this alliance, we can get ourselves out of it was so entangled in this alliance that once america gets into this, a conflict in the taiwan straits. we will inevitably be a part of it. and, you know, he, he suggests that it may be, you know, is going to be very difficult for us to get out of it. and it, and it is obviously very difficult, precisely because of poland and the rest of them, including that germany with alina. but they want to be in a counseling, and it is getting worse. i mean that this conflict in the taiwan straits has got worse. not because of anything china has done, but it's all been done by the united states. it's a deliberate policy of provocation, and macro does see it. we're getting dragged into this. well, it's, it's really interesting here is that i am, i surmise, alexander, that mc crown is been reflecting upon the fact how did friends good soap into this

mess with ukraine of no strategic interest whatsoever to the, to nato, to the you, certainly not our friends. ok. and he sees that, you know, what, the quagmire that nato was created for you frame, they're going to do the same thing with taiwan. so he's kind of saying, you know, we, we see where this can go. but what's in, seem to me is it, you know, what are the strategic into? so francis reaching interest of, you know, of the, of the, you, it's not really about that. it's about a lead capture. it's about a better box. ok. it's about the polish prime minute, it's their interest in their, in their pecking order in the higher that's when it's all about here. i mean, when you, it's really quite bewildering. you have the, the german foreign minister, basically a spitting in the face of the french president. what? because her elite interests are at stake. not necessarily ideological. alexander.

oh, we do know that all these people, they socialize with each other at these conferences. they fly around on each other's jazz. there old great friends. they do unethical things during their elections in order to be able to continue attending these clubs. if they're so unfortunate as to actually lose an election, then they just get hired by various agencies or get appointed to some office so they can continue hanging out with their friends. so i think you're pointing to the right spot on. they're trying to keep up appearances among all of their buddies in this system. and it's kind of, it's just like any large organization that has an overbearing culture that it forces down on people. people are going to go along with this culture no matter what they may have thought about it before. money might influence their thinking on the matter. so yeah, i think that they're trying to keep that going. i don't think that france is really going to be able to do much with though, regardless of what they start to notice. macros might be kind of unnerved by the

really sort of crazy things that the americans are starting to say. part of it may be that parts of the as a lead, particularly from washington d. c. they're just coming off as not being competent at all. so you have these mum blurs like lloyd austin, who somehow didn't know about these leaks of their secret plans for weeks. you have antony blink and whose every 2nd word he says is, and you have a vice president who has never put 2 sensical words together. and you have a president who is suffering from dementia. so these, these folks are not, they're not sending their best. and i think that some people just on a basic human level in europe are starting to lose patience with these guys. yeah, well, if it goes back to the vin, you know, saying, you know, the inter agency consensus, george, because that's really what it's about. and that's what's really scary about all of

this is, and we can have all these, you know, that we can have, you know, sergeant schultz in abilene a bad about can list trust, you know, they're, they're all entertaining because they're so incompetent. ok. but the inter agency consensus move on. yes, i think that's right. i mean, it's up we can easily get distracted by the all of the weaknesses and the foibles of leaders. but there, underneath it, there is, you know, we're looking for want of a better word, a deep state that is, does move relentlessly. and clearly has this agenda, which is to provoke a conflict. i mean, they are desperate to provoke this conflict with russia. and then with china, i think my microns diagnosis is right. there will be a conflict with china. i mean, there's a question, i mean, just as a conflict with russia, we're heading towards a conflict with china because the united states wants it and there's nothing you can do to stop it just as then, you know, with the people like victoria newland,

the, the permanent fixture in washington english is, goes $11.00 administration to another. and what is she doing in all of these administrations? the same thing is always provoking conflict. advancing american interest. what she sees as american interest by provoking prices to which then america is always the answer and that's how they will move towards china. so you know that there may well be voices within europe. that will say that we agree with macro, but there's really very little they can do, but there is a trans atlantic elite you know, the, the, the military in europe is thoroughly integrated into nature. the in the military industries in europe, always a kind of non existence. i come across a year and we really need to get our military. the stays off the ground and then poland says, yeah, but we're not buying anything from europe. we're buying exclusively from the united states. i was going to be, i was the thing. we don't want to buy any of these thinking your friendship planes

. we want to buy our planes from washington. so it's unfortunate that you know, you can just simply say, yeah, this is, this is really stupid or bon says the same thing, but the transit land, a gravy train is just the inexorable. yeah. the, that's exactly what it is. and, and, alexander what's, what's most dangerous here is that one of the things that we learned from the cold war, one of the things you should not do during the cold war, is go toe to toe with a peer power. you don't do that, you could have vietnam, you can have afghanistan, you can a fighting in africa, but you don't go toe to toe, and this is a, a break. and i think maybe it has something to do with, you know, we have a empty president. we have an empty suit for a president because a lot of friends and say, yeah, i know what you guys want to do, but it's my presidency is my legacy and i'm not going to go down. i'm not going to be on the brought down the empire here. there's no breaking these people right now . and so having nato going against russia toe to toe,

one's going to win and was going to lose. that was a lesson you should. it was one thing you didn't do during the cold war. they have broken that taboo. alexander, as i have suggested, i think that the people running the show in washington are not altogether that smart. i think that they've inherited systems power institutions from people who were smarter and more competent than they are and they didn't know what to do with it. so at this point now that the u. s. is running out of soft power because of what happened in afghanistan. what's happening and ukraine is just defeat after defeat for the u. s. empire. so i think that now they're being, they're just flailing around. they don't know what to do. they're sanctions and backfired. and so their only option now is to threaten and bully and to suggest, well, maybe we'll use military force because they don't have any tricks left up their sleeve. so that's effectively all these guys have left. they're not smart enough to

come up with any new plans. they're not smart enough to come up with anything that could fix this changing situation. they were handed a strategy down from previous generations and they don't know how to operate it in the changing world. yeah, well i think that's probably the most depressing ending of this program of all. okay, as all the di we gentlemen, i want to thank my guest and in saint petersburg and in budapest, i think our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time. remember cross talk roles. ah ah me. yeah. watching was if i give you the ball and the shadow shorter one, and i'm not trying to scan know when i was with

georgia session, i provided a shot a i think in the moment. so there is a much a clear understanding of the causes leading up to this crisis. even though the best in position is that it is an approval for i think the promise of understand that this is part of the u. s. lead to question strategy for the containment rational on the pathway to the containment of china. ah

ah ah, we will work closely together at the un, within the framework of the security council, where brazil is currently a non permanent member. brazil and india should become permanent, members of the un security council has the message from russian foreign minister, and he thought a 5 day trip across last new america. as a rod announced the new era for the middle east. the push for peace india and his in the face with the latest prisoners, but the red cross, the crisis, and the war torn country is being largely ignored by the international community. and he's not making the headlines anymore, but we shouldn't forget.