ah ton of welcome to worlds apart. europe has to grow out of the mindset that europe's problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not your problems. this is how india foreign minister is summed up his country's position, visit the western frustrate, to take their side in the ukrainian conflict. how is this war changing the balance of how we're responsibility and wisdom? it's been the so called develop and the developing world. well, to discuss that and now joined from massachusetts by christian mac, that senior global justice follow at yellow university. mr. methods. great to talk

to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting. now let's a start with this often quoted statement by the indian foreign minister, which i found fascinating both for historical and psychological reasons. because here we have a former colony telling a former colonial master dug. it needs to get the grip. it needs to part with its infantile illusions of omnipotence, and it needs to take responsibility. how was it perceived and received in the west? well, i think the, what the, what our minister is saying is that the best needs to get out of this mindset that it's problems. other was problems, but the was problems are not the best problems. and i think he's making a very valid point that when we are under stress, whether it is a debt issues, whether it is inflation, unemployment famine,

climate related prices, the west is not, not there to help us. like when the west, once the global sound, to support them on a certain position with respect to the crisis and ukraine. they put a lot of pressure on the globe out to support them to sanction russia, to criticize the war and so forth. and what the situation that he's saying is that look when we have our problems and we need your help, you're not there to support us. so please step back for a moment and understand and empathize other problems are before insisting on a cert letter method. do you think it was heard the same a way it was intended in the west? do you think there was a note of that statement? both in europe and hopefully in the united states? my, my personal view that the narrative is very much i they

much but it. i think the weiss is being heard because the blue south is actually making a plea for peace. they want to stay neutral in this crisis in your brain. they don't want to take sides, they don't want to impose any sanctions. and you know, if any percent of the was population is taking this position. some questions are actually being asked in the best that 80 percent of the world's population is not supporting them on this basis in ukraine. you know, as you know, it is mainly the u. s. lead g 7 countries with now 700000000 is supporting the current best position. the bricks, countries, 3200000 population and many of the countries in latin america, africa, middle east and south asia are referring to stay neutral to fan the flames of this fire. they don't want to take sides. and i think one of the reasons they're doing

this is they're making a plea for peace. the message gets across to the list and russia and the countries that are engaged in this crisis, including ukraine, that 80 percent of the population is choosing not to supply arms, not to sanction, to stand neutral, not to fan the flames. it is sending a message, a plea for peace, and i think how this situation is now being understood because is more and more reporting in the press in the west and press. why is it that this is happening? why? so that will, people are supporting and i think that's what i tried to explain. it's not now i, i'm sure i have a sounds at least that perhaps i would agree with me that no country, including, by the way, russia, in its official doctrine, supports war or even a limited military operation to conduct itself internationally. and yet, you know, russia for certain reasons feels that it was left with no other choice than pursue

this course of policy. and even though, as you sat most countries out of the north west, just try to stay neutral. why do you think that position? at least in my, in my experience, it seems to be far more nuanced and circumspect than the western one. how do you explain that? apart from the plea for peace? because a, i guess maybe it's a leading question, but i sense that there's something more than just that, you know, an abstract desire piece there. i think it has to do with the underground structure of the whole conflict. if not the whole international system. yes, i think now some nuances to this position by the globe and sounds and, and, and that is perhaps a best explained by a few of my circumstances. and i will explain to you. one is,

as we just talked earlier, that the global south believes that the west does not understand or empathize with its problems. and you know, the pandemic was a perfect perfect example of and they were left totally in the cold on this issue. the, the help did come wrong, russia from china, from india to the global south, but the intellectual property was never shared. and then there's a lot of money that if there's another fantastic, be stuck in the same position. i think that's one reason. another reason is that the global south remembers it's colonial history many and they know that most of the o western nations that are part of this alliance with you and they to one of their former colonial powers. and they remember that history much better than the western members. and they also know that it was a former soviet union that stood by them during that very difficult trauma. the colonial history. i think a todd reason is that the global south is saying that this ukraine,

more is not our war. it is a war and more for the future of europe. then for the future of the entire world. but we are paying a very high price through inflation to high food prices, but laser prices, i may have to pay very high price because it's not just the case. and it's the ones deliberately wants to put some of the burden on to the global south. it's not just happenstance, it's a deliberate policy. you know, there was a very interesting interview that the president of the world bank gave a last week. mister damon, one pat, my pass in which he said that as a result off the rest having the capacity to issue a lot of debt to subsidize its households and businesses. as you know, you has issued almost 800000000000 euros of debt to subsidizes the u. s, as you should not have been to subsidize it's, it is people do. mr. mount bus was saying that what is happening is that the west

is devouring the capital of the won't to service this debt. it was on into high interest rates. the capital is flowing into the e u and the u. s. to service is debt. and as a result, the vast is being high price because the cost of that service is going up, their ability to use resources to financed it on development goes down. and this is combined with inflation with high food prices and energy prices. and in a sense, they are paying a very high price, but a war in which they had nothing to do with it. it's, they're now being subject to pressure to try to take sites. in one of your articles, you mentioned that nelson mandela often said that it was the soviet support both moral and material and that how the south africans to you overthrow the apartheid regime. and i think the kremlin at this point is trying to use a similar framing presenting the, the warranty ukraine as not just the, you know,

a war between the 2 countries and certainly no other war for additional territory. but a conflict between the one country and the system that divides the global community ensure eternally privileged, the west and the eternally damned thought they wrap her brave. huh. which may be russia, china, iran, and many, many others. do you think that kind of framing resonates with the rest of the world? you know, i cannot speak with the entire human sound, but for me suddenly to travel grades in a significant way. you know, i come from india, which has been at the receiving end of the british colonial one. assume 150 years. as you know, britain's g d p, today's around 3.2 trillion. but various studies have estimated that during the 150 years of the colonial history, the wealth that was taken from india alone was almost 20 trillion. to just think

one country, the wells that was absorbed by britain was 40 trillion and india was not the only economy of to be honest, i think the global south remembers it's colonial history much more than the west to dies. it is a rotten area for them. i know people in mexico, for example, remember that it was the war in the mid 1900 century when united states. i went to war with mexico and took over a california and new mexico and texas. american children may not remember it, but children in mexico do. so in a sense, i, what i'm saying is that the memory of the loan is history is long. the global sounds this almost forgotten in, in the not. and i, one of the concerns and the, and the, and you mentioned mister mandela is that kind of sentiment that mister mandela was expressing that it was a warren and material support of the former soviet union. that inspired the

southern africans to rise up on account apartheid was very much understood and empathize with the rest of the stuff. and, you know, the global south also remembers that after independence came, it was not only in the struggle for independence, but after independence game. it was the former soviet union that stood by them. i come from india, the belie, still launch the largest infrastructure, steep landing post independent. india was designed and built by the former soviet union. so even though russia is not the soviet union, and the communist systems did not transfer over the russia in many so many different than the truth is in the eyes of the low, the south. russia is still seen as the i do not, you can success of the phone with mr. method. this is such an important point because i think here in russia we have had maybe 2030 years of being ashamed of our soviet past. and sure, there's some very dark truck tested, but there's also,

you know, many of the good things and inspiring things and things that are worthy of respect, geniune, and humanitarian respect that you know, we ourselves have to, you know, come to grips with. and i often hear, for example, from my south african guests that come on guys, you don't have to be so ashamed of yourself for spending your own ground, which leads me to my next question. because you mentioned before that many countries developing countries view the ukranian proxy war as a sort of a war for the future of the european security rather than the entire world. and i agree with that but to this side, to discipline x x. and this is not what i hear from my south african indian or pakistani gas because, oh, sure they understand that russia is out for it's on the security strategic security interest that are sort of contextualized by the european security. but when one

country takes on behalf jasmine and the system, the very exploitative and very unfair system that you know, it wants to protect at all costs. doesn't it also have certain global, you know, implications. i think in the global south, there is a much clearer understanding of the causes leading up to this crisis. even though the western position is that it is an unprovoked war. i think the global understand that this is part of the u. s. lead western strategy for the containment of russia on the pathway to the containment of china and nato expansion. as being a big part of it. in spite of the constant promises that were made in the 1st bush administration about not an inch eastward. and in spite of the red lines that russia continued to reiterate of ukraine at georgia,

so it seems to us in the long south that the narrative as many dimensions to it, many nuances to it. but it is quite easy to sort of the sent it as a one sided narrative and i think many people in a little bit. so see through that. they also see through the fact that this so called space international order under which the sanctions are being embossed, i really lacking in credibility and on it. i'm okay, well, can i stop here right here because this is a fascinating question. we need to explore them more detail, but before we do that, let's take a very short break. we will get back in just a few moments. ah ah, ah

. ah, welcome back to well support with kristen back 1st senior global justice fellow at yellow university. mr. matter, just before i interrupted you, you were talking about the, the so called rules based order that it lacking credibility. and you also, bro, than the one of your previous articles. the many in the developing world viewed the

ukranian war as a sort of distraction from the most pressing issues facing the, the global south. but in order to be distracted, one's 1st needs to be involved. and this is this something that i want to ask you about has the west over the last couple of decades, at least been genuinely involved in solving the, the most pressing developmental issues. not paying lip service to it, not the pursuing its own commercial interest on that the guys of you know, aid or council, but truly trying to lead, alleviate suffering for the sake of those who suffer. has there been periods of time when that was manifested, the help that has come from the will bang from the i met with olivia over a certain period of time as being helpful. but if you look at the more recent history of santa, if you look at what the global south went through in the pandemic,

then despite constant appeals to share the intellectual property on the vaccines. nothing was shared. we ended up, you know, one and 4 persons in the west was vaccinated by mid 20211500 was wax a to the globe in many low income countries of the global south. we also saw how it was russia and china and in that came to our help as you know, egypt program on, on the been them, it was jump started by splitting maxine and jerry, i also received the signal from vaccine from china, south africa, received from the c, them, institute of india, know the vaccines, the maximum that we needed. so been help, was really needed. it was not as was coming wrong, the west as well as what that did or desired. the fact of the matter is that

the health that has gone in the more recent past rom, china, wrong, russia, rama even india to some of the building up countries has been much more significant . i'll give you an example. over the past 20 years, china has provided loans, $250.00 countries to the extent of around $900000000000.00 over the past when he has not think of this $193.00 countries in the world. and 50 of those countries, most of them and now i've received loans both $900000000000.00 on china just 2 weeks ago and present good and met with the african leaders. you forgave debt around $20000000000.00 that the african countries owed to russia. you know, as they look to the future, they see russia as a source of war. what eliza and energy they see china is

a source of infrastructure, financing, and manufacturing. so they're saying is the rest, the only game in town, or we have other options as we move me from the uni when a world into a more money cycle. it was, is the future on which children and our grandchildren generation better protected by being open, not just the best, but the other countries. what i'm hearing you say is that russia, china, india, many other the so called developing countries are providing their neighbors and countries, worlds apart with tangible assets, with something that they can actually improve people's lives. whereas the west continues a lot of, you know, doing the preaching. and this is something that is very interesting to me from a psychological point. this insistence on alicia because there is demand of

leadership. sounds very infantile, both demanding and very insecure in the sense. and because when you are a self sufficient leader, you don't need others for validation, you know, your own value and your share, what you can share. but when your insist, so indignantly on, you know, the, they are much being paid than the other countries joining with you. i sounds a bit of insecurity there, and this is what i want to ask you about. do you think the west is really secure about morally secure another militarily, but morally secure about the kind of developmental paradigm that it's offering or rather imposing on the rest of the world? i think units really, really valid point because there is some degree of uncertainty that has in my view that is coming about with regard to the best positions. because to see

a certain mom wow. aqua seek would be a, what would be a certain, do a standard, you know, for example, the west points to a number of un resolutions that have come about that have been critical of russia's intervention in ukraine. but they totally ignore the various un resolutions that have been there that have that have challenged the vest on actions in yugoslavia, in iraq, in libya, in syria, in yemen and so forth. so it is nice to look at certain, hold on to certain aspects that would strengthen the best position. you know, in substance what is happening is from these countries are not functioning, russia, they're saying in spite of these resolutions reacting to certain stance, that is important. so the best sees this and is saying, wait a minute, this is something to think about because that sensor one fitness and pride that

they would be exceptional nation. if whatever they said, the one would look up to is stop now starting to be question and whether ukraine crisis has done is it has put some of these issues much more into the spotlight for the rest thing that 80 percent of the world. so i knew speak article last week in which said that almost 87 percent of the world is not sanctioning. russia is the reason for it. this is misinformation is in russia. ok, and so forth. so they're starting to question, why is the reality so different from their expectations? well, because for years they believe that perception is reality, but it's actually different. i mean, the reality is, reality and perception is perception. no matter how much money you try to put into it now on the issue of sanctions, i read recently a very interesting interview with an advisor to the brazilian president sell. so amory and he meets the single point of developing countries could not succumb

to western pressure to impose sanctions on russia for purely physiological reasons . because when you have millions of people to feed, you cannot afford, especially if you are a democratic country, you cannot afford to put somebody is abstract values above your own, very mundane and practical necessities like food and fertilizer experts. so there is a, you know, sort of governmental imperative that countries need to take into account. and that's a simple reason for why they simply cannot afford to, to join the sanctions in this the broadside sanctions campaign even if they wanted to. now, i wonder if the international politics could actually benefit from this influx of the mundane matters. bread and butter matters. ok. even though it came through this admittedly horrible war, do you think there is any silver lining in this whole conflict that we are having in this whole conflagration that we're witnessing right now?

i think that there is a silver lining asana. one most important civil lining is that it is not possible for the rest to expect that the whole world will support them or their actions as we just talked about 80 percent. another civil lining is the fact that as a result of this crisis, we are now seeing a marker shim emerging between russia and china. we're seeing among type will emerging, that is more protective of the global. so especially trade starts to take place in the opportunity of the rest to sanction the global south on a dollar based exchange is far more difficult if the trading is taking place in currencies other than the donor. and so i think what is the another shiver lining in my view of china is the fact that because this crisis has brought the world to

an edge, roma survival standpoint, i think that once the dust settles on this and that is certainly my please abuse. once the dust settles, people are on the whole, we come to realize that we did not need this crisis. we did not bring the whole world to the edge of the nuclear confrontation that to protect our children's generation and grandchildren generation. we have to go back to the fundamental security interest in each country has to ensure that they are on as prison who didn't, has been saying you cannot have security a one at the expense of another the for all right. i mean, i think this is also very important. you cannot have the comfort than the living standards of one part of humanity at the expense of another. and we have only a minute left. but i do, i still, we empathize with your plea for peace with as a russian. i also have a certain urge for fairness and material fairness as well. maybe that's, you know, the echo my communist pass and heritage but you know,

the road and one of your articles that the west can sustain this war as long as it takes because they have the financial resources and capital markets to do so. but is that truly the case? i mean, if we look at what's happening with the banking crisis, with in the united states, the mounting dad and liquidity problems, many countries divesting themselves from the u. s. dollar. what do you think are the best and the worst case scenario for the west that south should the west be concerned about its own comforts and sustainability in this case? i think the best case scenario would be, well, the best to realize that the, on the quote together, we all have to be part of a secure future. and we cannot continue to just support weston approaches to solutions to problems. but other countries interests have to be taken into gone . i think that's, that's the worst case. that's the best case. the,

the other side is in my view of santa is that the, as long as it takes scenario is something that people are saying. but the fact that protests not taking place on the world, the fact that there's inflation in the west is d industrialized taking place in part. so europe, entries are starting to realize that this, as long as it takes scenario, is not what is going to play out in the long run and we need to come to terms for peace. i come from a into background. in the hindu scriptures, it says there's an interesting question that laud, aren't you, not ocelot krishna. how should one treat the other person and not push no replies. there is no other person which basically means that b, o, the same medic, ukraine, the global south, the west and beyond have to find ways and means to work together in peace. and i think that's the lesson we need to take away from this place. i have nothing to add

by that clause here. you know, the golden rule is the oldest rule in the world, treat others as me yourself wanting to treat it. and what you mentioned that just another expression of that, that feel part of the one fabric and there are no exceptional nations. we are all unique in that all in our own special way and we'll have our right to manifest our destiny. it's been a fascinating conversation is a semester. thank you very much for that. thank you. please. thank you for watching . called to see her again on the world's apart. ah. with mm hm. ah,

during the 2nd world war in nazi occupied, poland, virginia was a farming region. today is part of ukraine between 1943 and 945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army, led by stepan. bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly horrific and brutal villages were burned and property looted. of aline, a massacre is without doubt, one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. why are ukrainian politicians still reluctant to talk about these events? how to modern day ukraine and poland view this tragedy of the past? and why does the memory of belinda still divide people with

bad lives this out? a lot of it. this is near the front lines of the resume, incorporated russian. territories of the live gun for public am, has on region to help make the updates directly form the commander the local forces versus a defense mercer meets with his chinese counterpart in moscow. while russia holds that mabel drilled in the pacific, our chorus one in bed with the fleet, which has i love the intention with .