ah, with tongue of welcome to world to part. europe has to grow out of the mindset that europe, problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not your problems. this is how in this foreign ministers summed up, he's conscious position to visit the western frustrate, to take various side in the ukrainian conflict. how is this war changing the balance of power, responsibility, and wisdom? it's been the so called develop and the developing world. well, to discuss that i'm now joined from massachusetts by christian mac, that senior global justice follow at yahoo university. mr. methods. great to talk

to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting. now. let's start with this often quoted statement by the engine foreign minister, which i found fascinating both for historical and sign. we have a former colony telling a former colonial muslims on i think the, what the wanted minister is saying is that the best needs to get out of this mindset. that it's problems of the world's problems. but the was problems are not the best problems. and i think is making a very valid point that when we are under stress, whether it is a debt issues, whether it is inflation, unemployment famine, i'm it related crisis. the west is not, not there to help us. like when the best ones, the global sounds, to support them on a certain position with respect to the crisis and ukraine. they put

a lot of pressure on the globe out to support them to sanction russia, to criticize the war and so forth. and what the situation go to saying is that look when we have our problems and we need your help, you're not there to support us. so please step back for a moment and understand and empathize. i'm a problem, sar, before insisting on a cert letter method. do you think it was heard the same way? it was intended in the west? do you think there was a note of that statement? both in europe and hopefully in the united states? my, my post and view that the narrative is very much i they much in favor of what the rest would like to believe. but it, i think the weiss is being heard because the rulers south is actually making a plea for peace. they want to stay neutral in this crisis in your brain. they

don't want to take sides. they don't want to impose any sanctions. and you know, if 80 percent of the was population is taking this position. some questions are actually being asked in the best that 80 percent of the ones population is not supporting them on this basis in ukraine. you know, as you know, it is mainly the u. s. lead g 7 countries with now 700000000 is supporting the current best position. the bricks, countries, 3200000000 population and many of the countries in latin america, africa, middle east and south asia are referring to stay neutral to fan the flames of this fire. they don't want to take sides. and i think one of the reasons they're doing this is they're making a plea for peace. the message gets across to the west and russia and, and the countries that are engaged in this crisis, including ukraine,

that 80 percent of the population is choosing not to supply arms not to sanction, to stay neutral or not to fan the flames. it is sending a message, a plea for peace, and i think how this situation is now being understood because is more and more reporting in the press in the rest impressed. why is it that this is happening? why so that will people are supporting and i think that's what i tried to explain in the topic now and i rose, i'm sure i have a sense of things that perhaps i would agree with me that no country, including, by the way, russia in its official doctrine supports war or even the limited military operation to conduct itself internationally. and yet, you know, russia for certain reasons feels that it was left with no other choice than pursue this for the course of policy. and even though, as you sat most countries of been on the west and try to stay

neutral, why do you think that position? at least in my, in my experience, it seems to be far more nuanced and circumspect than the western one. how do you explain that, apart from the plea for peace, because a, i guess maybe it's a leading question, but i sense that there's something more than just an abstract desire piece there. i think it has to do with the on to grounds structure of this whole conflict, if not the whole international system. yes, ma'am. i think now some nuances to this position by the globe and sounds. and then the, and that is perhaps a best explained by a few of my circumstances and i will explain to you. one is, as we just talked earlier, that the global self believes that the west does not understand or empathize with its problems. and, you know, the pandemic was a perfect perfect example of and they were left totally in the cold on this issue.

the, the help did come wrong. russia from china, from india to the middle, the south. but the intellectual property was never shared. and, and there's a lot of money that if there's another fantastic, be stuck in the same position. i think that's one reason. another reason is that the global south remembers it's colonial history many and they know that most of the o western nations that are part of this alliance of you and they, to one of their former colonial powers. and they remember that history much better than the western members, and they want to know that it was a former soviet union that stood by them during that very difficult trauma. the colonial history. i think a todd reason is that the global south is saying that this ukraine, more is not our war. it is a war more for the future of europe then for the future of the entire world. but we are paying a very high price through inflation to high food prices with laser prices. i may

have to pay very high, high price because it's not just the case. and then the ones deliberately wants to put some of the burden on to the, the global south. it's not just the happenstance, it's a deliberate policy. you know, there was a very interesting interview that the president of the world bank gave a last week mister damon, one that my boss in which he said that as a result off the west having the capacity to issue a lot of debt to subsidize its households. and businesses, as you know, you has issued almost 800000000000 euros of debt to subsidize this. the u. s. is you shouldn't not have been to subsidize. it's if people do mr. mount bus was saying that what is happening, the capital of the won't do service this debt. susan into higher interest rates, the capital is flowing into the e. u and the u. s. to service is debt. and as her song,

the vast is being high price because the cost of that services bring up their ability to use resources to financed it on development goes down. and this is combined with inflation with high food prices and energy prices. and in a sense, they are paying a very high price, but a war in which they had nothing to do with it, which they're now being subject to pressure to try to take sites. and one of your articles you mentioned that nelson mandela often said that it was the soviet support both moral and material and that how the south africans to you overthrow they apartheid regime. and i think the kremlin at this point is trying to use a similar framing presenting the, the warranty ukraine as not just the, you know, a war between the 2 countries and certainly no other war for additional territory. but a conflict between the one country and the system that divides the global community

ensure eternally privileged, the west and the eternally damn thought. they wrap her braid which may be russia, china, iran, and many, many others. do you think that kind of framing resonates with the rest of the world? you know, i cannot speak with the entire human sound, but for me certainly can travel grades in a significant way. you know, i come from india, which has been at the receiving end of the british colonial, want to see 150 ins as you know, britain's g d, p, today's around 3.2 trillion. but various studies have estimated that during the 150 years of the colonial history, the wealth that was taken from india alone was almost 20 trillion. to just think one country, the wells that was absorbed by britain was 40 trillion and india was not the only economy of. to be honest, i think the global south remembers its cloning history much more than the west to does. it is a button and off with them. i know people in mexico, for example,

remember that it was the war in the mid 1900 century when united states. i went to war with mexico and took over a california and new mexico and texas. american children, we don't remember it, but children in mexico do. so in a sense i what i'm saying is that the memory of the loan is history is long. the globe is sounds this almost forgotten in, in the not. and i, one of the concerns and the, and the, and you mentioned mister mandela, is that kind of sentiment that mr. ben della was expressing that it was the moral and material support of the former soviet union. that inspired the southern africans to rise up upon account apartheid was very much understood and empathize mit in the rest of that little bit. so, and, you know, the global south also remembers that after independence came, it was not only in the struggle for independence, but after independence game. it was the former soviet union that stood by them. i

come from india, the belie steel plant, the largest infrastructure, land, and post independent. india was designed and built by the former soviet union. so even though russia is not the soviet union, and the communist systems did not transfer over russia in many so many different than the truth is in the eyes of the global south. russia is still seen as the i do not because success of the phone with miss mister mccoy. this is such an important point because i think here in russia we have had maybe 2030 years of being ashamed of our soviet past. and sure, there's some very dark truck tested, but there's also, you know, many of the good things and inspiring things and things that are worthy of respect, geniune, and humanitarian respect that you know, we ourselves have to, you know, come to grips with. and i often hear, for example,

from my south african guests that come on guys, you don't have to be so ashamed of yourself for bending your own gun. which leads me to my next question. because you mentioned before that many countries developing countries view the ukranian proxy war as a sort of a war for the future of the european security rather than the entire world. and i agree with that, but to the sides, to the 2nd extent, this is not what i hear from my south african indian or pakistani gas because oh, sure they understand that russia is out for its own, the security, a strategic security interest that are sort of contextualized by the european security, but when one country takes on behalf jasmine and this system very exploitative and very unfair system that you know, it wants to protect at all costs. doesn't it also have certain global,

you know, implications. i think in the global south, there is a much clearer understanding of the causes leading up to this crisis. even though the rest and position is that it is an unprovoked war. i think the global understand that this is part of the u. s. lead west and strategy for the containment of russia on the pathway to the containment of china and nato expansion . as being a big part of it. in spite of the constant promises that were made in the 1st bush administration about not an inch eastwards. and in spite of the red lines that russia continued to reiterate to ukraine and ga. so it seems to us in the south that the narrative as many dimensions to it, many nuances to it. but it is quite easy to sort of the sent it as a one sided narrative. and i think many people in the middle,

the south sea through that. they also see through the fact that this so called space international order under which the sanctions are being embossed, i really lacking in credibility and on it. i'm okay, well, can i stop here right here because this is a fascinating question. we need to explore then more detail, but before we do that, let's take a very short break. we will get back in just a few moments. ah ah

ah welcome back to wells, of course with kristen back that senior global justice fellow at yellow university, mr. martin, just before i interrupted you, you were talking about the, the so called rules based order that it lacking credibility. and you also, bro, than the one of your previous articles. the many in the developing world viewed the ukranian of war as a sort of distraction from the most pressing issues facing the in the global south . but in order to be distracted, one 1st needs to be involved,

then this is this something that i want to ask you about has the west over the last couple of decades, at least been genuinely involved in solving the the most pressing developmental issues. nothing lip service to it, not the pursuing its own commercial interest on that the guys of you know, a door council, but truly trying to lead, alleviate suffering for the sake of those who suffer. has there been periods of time when that was manifested? the health that has come from the will bang from the i met over the over over a certain period of time has been helpful. but if you look at the more recent history of santa, if we look at what the global south went through in the pandemic, then despite constant appeals to share the intellectual property on the vaccines. nothing was shared. we ended up, you know, one and 4 persons in the west rose vaccinated by mid 20211500. was wax

a to the globe in many low income countries of the global south. we also saw how it was russia and china, and that came to our help as you know, egypt program on, on the bid demick was jump started by sporting maxine oh. and julia also received the snowfall vaccine from china, south africa, received from the see them institute of india. now the vaccines, the maximum that we needed so been help, was really needed. it was not as what's coming wrong, the vest as well as what back did or decide the fact of the matter is that the help that has gone in the more recent past rom, china, wrong russia wrong. even india to some of the building up countries has been much

more significant. i'll give you an example. over the past 20 years. ah, china has provided loans, $250.00 countries to the extent of around $900000000000.00 over the past when he has not think of this, that $193.00 countries in the world. i don't know 50 of those countries, most of them in the south. i received loans both $900000000000.00 on china just 2 weeks ago and present good and met with the african leaders. you forgave debt around $20000000000.00 that the african countries or russia, you know, as they looked at the future, they see russia as a source of what, what eliza and energy this he, china, is a source o infrastructure financing and manufacturing. so they're saying is the rest, the only game in town, or we have other options as we move me from the unique one,

a world into a more money type. well, it was, is the future on which children and our grandchildren generation better protected by being open not just to the best, but the other countries. what i'm hearing you say is that russia, china, india, many other the so called developing countries are providing their neighbors and countries, worlds apart with tangible assets, with something that they can actually improve people's lives. whereas the west continues a lot of, you know, doing the preaching. and this is something that is very interesting to me from a psychological point. this insistence on literature because there's demands of leadership. sounds very infantile, both demanding and very insecure in the sense. and because when you are a self sufficient leader, you don't need others for validation, you know,

your own value and your share, what you can share. but when you insist, so indignantly on, you know, the, they are much being paid than the other countries joining with you. i sounds a bit of insecurity there, and this is what i want to ask you about. do you think the west is really secure about morally secure another militarily, but morally secure about the kind of developmental paradigm that it's offering or rather imposing on the rest of the world? i think units really, really valid point because there is some degree of uncertainty that has in my view that is coming about with regard to the best positions. because to see a certain mom, mom aka seek would be a, what would be a certain do a standard, you know, for example, the west point to a number of un resolutions that have come about that have been critical of russia's

intervention in ukraine. but they totally ignore the various un resolutions that have been there that have been a challenge the best on actions in yugoslavia, in iraq, in libya, in syria, in yemen and so forth. so it is nice to look at certain world on to certain aspects that would strengthen the best position. you know, in substance what is happening is when these countries are not sanctioning russia, they're saying in spite of these resolutions be at a certain stand that is important. so the best sees this and is saying in a minute, this is something to think about because that sensor wanted instant pride that they were the exceptional nation. if whatever they said the was would look up to is stop now starting to be question and what the ukraine prices has done is it has put some of these issues much more into the spotlight for the rest thing that 80 percent of

the world, i mean i so i knew speak article last week in which said that almost 87 percent of the world is not sanctioning russia. this is a reason for it. this is, this information is in russia and so forth. so i think they're starting to question, why is the reality so different from their expectation? believe that perception is reality, but it's now on the issue of sanctions. millions of people to feed you cannot afford, especially if you are a democratic country, you cannot afford to put somebody is abstract values above your own, very mundane and practical necessities like food and fertilizer experts. so there is a, you know, sort of governmental imperative that countries need to take into account. and that's a simple reason for why they simply cannot afford to, to join the sanctions in the broadside sanctions campaign even if they wanted to. now, i wonder if the international politics could actually benefit from this influx of

the mundane matters. bread and butter matters. ok. even though it came through this admittedly horrible word, do you think there is any silver lining in this whole conflict that we are having in this whole conflagration that we are witnessing right now? i think that there is a silver lining asana. one most important civil lining is that it is not possible for the rest to expect that the whole world will support them or their actions as we just talked about 80 percent. not another civil lining is the fact that as a result of this prices, we are now seeing a partnership in emerging between russia and china. we're seeing among type will emerging that is more protective of the global south, especially trade stars to take place in currencies other than the dollar. the opportunity of the west to sanction the global south on

a dollar based exchange is far more difficult if the trading is taking place in currencies other than the donor. and so i think what is the another silver lining in my view of santa is the fact that because this crisis has brought the world to an edge, romano survival standpoint. i think that once the dust settles on this, and that is certainly my please. once the dust settles, people are on the whole, we come to realize that we did not need this crisis. we did not bring the whole world to the edge of that nuclear confrontation that to protect our children's generation and grandchildren generation. we have to go back to the fundamental security interests in each country, has to ensure that they're on as prison couldn't, has been saying you cannot have security a one at the expense of another the for i think this is also very important. you cannot have the comfort than the living standards of one part of humanity at the

expense of another, and we have only a minute left. but i do, i still, we empathize with your plea for peace with as a rush. and i also have a certain urge for fairness and material fairness as well. maybe that's, you know, the echo my communist pass and heritage. but, you know, the e road in one of your articles that the west can sustain this war as long as it takes because they have the financial resources in the capital markets to do so. but is that truly the case? i mean, if we look at what's happening with the banking crisis or with in the united states, the mounting dad and liquidity problems, many countries divesting themselves from the u. s. dollar. what do you think are the best and the worst case scenario? what the west itself should the was be concerned about its own comforts and sustainability in this case. i think the best case scenario would be, well, the best to realize that the, on the quote together, we all have to be part of

a secure future. and we cannot continue to just support weston approaches to solutions to problems, but other countries interests have to be taken into gone. i think that's that's the worst case. that's the best case. the, the other side is in my view of santa is that the, as long as it takes scenario is something that people are saying. but the fact that protests that taking place on the world, the fact that there's inflation and the rest is d industrialized taking place in part. so europe, countries are starting to realize that this, as long as it takes scenario, is not what is going to play out in the long run. and we need to come to terms for peace. i come from i'm into but i have nothing to add by that floss here in the gold special way and we all have our right to manifest our destiny. it's been

a fascinating conversation is a semester. thank you very much for that. thank you. please. ok. thank you for watching. hold to see we're again on the world's apart. ah with me. ah, during the 2nd world war in nazi occupied, poland, virginia was a farming region today as part of ukraine between 943 and 945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army led by step on bundy, a good thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly horrific and

brutal villages were burned and property looted. valinda massa is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. while ukrainian politicians are still reluctant to talk about these events. how to modern day ukraine and poland view this tragedy of the past. and why does the memory of belinda still divide people ah ah, india pushes back against greenhouse gas emission rules, branding them neo colonialist, ann calling the current credit ranking system biased and the failure. everything was said under the orders a was such good in my interview,

more than 90 percent is a lie. a former wagner group fighter claimed he was blackmailed by a human rights group to lie about the russian military and reports of explosions and gunfire. continue to come from sudan despite a recently agreed ceasefire between 2 military generals that was set to begin an hour ago with.