hung of, well, from 2 worlds apart. europe has to grow out of the mindset that europe, problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not here of problems. this is how in this foreign minister is summed up, he's conscious position, visit the western pressure to take various side in the cranium conflict. how is this war changing the balance of power responsibility on the wisdom? it's been the so called developed and the developing world. well, to discuss that i'm now joined from massachusetts by christian macbeth, senior global justice follow at yahoo university. mr. methods. great to talk to you . thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting. now. let's start with this often quoted statement by the engine foreign minister, which i found fascinating both for historical and psychological reasons. because here we have a former colony telling a former colonial master that it needs to get the grip. it needs to part with its

infant tile. illusions of omnipotence and it needs to take responsibility. how was it perceived and received in the west? well, and i think the, what the minister is saying is that the best needs to get out of this mindset that it's problems are the was problems. but the was problems are not the best problems. and i think he's making a very valid point that when we are under stress, whether it is the debt issues, whether it is inflation, unemployment famine, climate related crisis. the west is not, not there to help us. like when the best ones, the global south to support them on a certain position with respect to the crisis and ukraine. they put a lot of pressure on the globe out to support them to sanction russia, to criticize the war and so forth. and what the situation go to saying is that look

when we have our problems and we need your help, you're not there to support us. so please step back for a moment and understand and empathize. all the problems are before insisting on a so. mr method, do you think it was heard the same a way it was intended in the west, a thing they west took a note of that statement, both in europe and hopefully in the united states. my, my post and view that the narrative is very much i they much in favor of what the rest would like to believe. but it, i think the weiss is being heard because the rulers south is actually making a plea for peace. they want to stay neutral in this crisis in your brain. they don't want to take sides. they don't want to impose any sanctions. and you know, if any percent of the was population is taking this position. some questions are

actually being asked in the best that 80 percent of the ones population is not supporting them on this basis in ukraine. you know, as you know, it is mainly the u. s. lead g 7 countries with now 700000000 is supporting the current best position. the bricks, countries, 3200000000 population and many of the countries in latin america, africa, middle east and south asia are referring to stay neutral to fan the flames of this fire. they don't want to take sides. and i think one of the reasons they're doing this is they're making a plea for peace. the message gets across to the west and russia and, and the countries that are engaged in this crisis, including ukraine, that 80 percent of us population is choosing not to supply arms not to sanction, to stay neutral or not to fan the flames. it is sending a message,

a plea for peace, and i think how this situation is now being understood because is more and more reporting in the press in the western press. why is it that this is happening? why said that? well, people are supporting and i think that's what i tried to explain in the topic now. i rose, i'm sure i have a sense at least that perhaps i would agree with me that no country, including, by the way, russia, in its official doctrine, supports war or even a limited military operation to conduct itself internationally. and yet, you know, russia for certain reasons feels that it was left with no other choice than pursue this course of policy. and even though, as you sat most countries out of the north west and try to stay neutral, why do you think that position? at least in my, in my experience, it seems to be far more nuanced and circumspect than the western one. how do you

explain that, apart from the plea for peace, because a, i guess maybe it's a leading question, but i sense that there's something more than just that, you know, an abstract desire piece there. i think it has to do with the underground structure of this whole conflict, if not the whole international system. yes, i think there are some nuances to this position by the global south and, and, and that is perhaps a best explained by one is as we just talked earlier from china, from india, remember, it's colonial history many. and they know that most of the o western nations that are part of this alliance of you and they, to one of their former colonial powers. and they remember that history much better than the western members. and they also know that it was a former soviet union that stood by them during that very difficult trauma. the

colonial history. i think a town reason is that the south is saying that this ukraine bore is not on the war . it is a war and more for the future of europe, then for the future of the entire world. but we are paying a very high price through inflation to high food prices. what lies of prices. i may have to pay very high price because it's not just the case. and then the ones deliberately wants to put some of the burden on to the global south. it's not just the happenstance, it's a deliberate policy. you know, there was a very interesting interview that the president of the world bank gave a last week mister damon, one my, us in which he said that as a result off the rest having the capacity to issue a lot of debt to subsidize its households. and businesses, as you know, you has issued almost 800000000000 euros of debt to subsidize this. the u. s. s.

you should not have been to subsidize it's, it is people don't. mister mouthwash was saying that what is happening is that the west is devouring the capital of the won't to service this debt. it was on to higher interest rates. the capital is flowing into the e u and the u. s. to service does that. and as her song, the vast is being high priced because the cost of that service is going up, their ability to use resources to financed it on development goes down. and this is combined with inflation with high food prices and energy prices. and in a sense, they are paying a very high price, but a war in which they had nothing to do with it, which they're now being subject to pressure to try to take science. and one of your articles you mentioned that nelson mandela often said that it was the soviet support both moral and material and that how the south africans to you overthrow

they apartheid regime. and i think the kremlin, at this point is trying to use a similar framing presenting the, the war in the ukraine as not just the, you know, a war between the 2 countries and certainly no other war for additional territory. but a conflict between the one country and the system that divides the global community ensure eternally privileged, the west and the eternally damn thought. they wrap her braid which may be russia, china, iran, and many, many others. do you think that kind of framing resonates with the rest of the world? you know, i cannot speak with the entire look of sound, but for me suddenly interval grades in a significant way. you know, i come from india, which has been at the receiving end of the british colonial, want to see 150 ins as you know, britain's g d, p, today's around 3.2 trillion. but various studies have estimated that during the 150 years of the only history,

the wealth that was taken from india alone was almost 40 trillion to just think one country, the wells that was absorbed by britain was 40 trillion and india was not the only colony, to be honest, i think the global south remembers its cloning history much more than the west to does. it is a lotten and off of them. i know people in mexico, for example, remember that it was the war in the mid 900 century when united states. i went to war with mexico and took over a california and new mexico and texas. american children may not remember it, but children in mexico do. so in a sense, i, what i'm saying is that the memory of lonia history is long. the global sounds is almost forgotten in, in the not. and i, one of the concerns and the, and the, and you mentioned mister mandela is that kind of sentiment that mister windella was expressing that it was the warren and material support of the former soviet union.

that inspired the southern africans to rise up upon a top apartheid was very much understood and empathize with in the rest of the stuff. and you know, the global south also remembers that after independence came, it was not only the struggle for events, but after independence game. it was the former soviet union that stood by them. i come from india, the belie stepmom's, the largest infrastructure, landing post independent india was designed and built by the former soviet union. so even though russia is not the soviet union and the communist systems did not transfer over the russia in many so many different. but mr. method, this is such an important point because i think here in russia we have had maybe 2030 years of being ashamed of ourselves past and sure there's some very dark chop tested. but there's also, you know, many of the good things and inspiring things and things that are worthy of respect,

geniune, and humanitarian respect that you know, we ourselves have to, you know, come to grips with. and i often hear, for example, from my south african guests that come on guys, you don't have to be so ashamed of yourself for bending your own gun. which leads me to my next question. because you mentioned before that many countries developing countries view the ukranian proxy war as a sort of a war for the future of the european security rather than the entire world. and i agree with that but to this side, to the southern accent. this is not what i hear from my south african indian or pakistani gas because, oh, sure they understand that russia is out for its own security, a strategic security interest that are sort of contextualized by the european security. but when one country takes on behalf jasmine and this system,

the very exploit a tariff and very unfair system that you know, it wants to protect at all costs. doesn't it also have certain global, you know, implications. i think in the global south, there is a much clearer understanding of the causes leading up to this crisis. even though the western position is that it is an unprovoked war. i think that room itself understand that this is part of the u. s. lead western strategy for the containment of russia on the pathway to the containment of china and nato expansion. as being a big part of it. in spite of the constant promises that were made in the 1st bush administration about not an inch eastwards. and in spite of the red lines that russia continued to reiterate of ukraine at georgia. so it seems to us in the south that the narrative as many dimensions to it,

many nuances to it. but it is quite easy to sort of the center as a one sided narrative. and i think many people in the south sea through that they also see through the fact that this so called space international order under which the sanctions are being embossed. i really lacking in credibility and on. i'm ok. well, can i stop you right here because this is a fascinating question. we need to explore then more detail. but before we do that, let's take a very short break. we will get back in just a few moments. ah, [000:00:00;00] ah

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welcome back to well to forthwith christian master senior, global justice fellow at the old university. mister matter, just before i interrupted you, you were talking about the so called rules based order that it lacking credibility. and you also bro, than one of your previous articles. the many in the developing world view, the ukranian of war as a sort of distraction from the most pressing issues facing the, the global south. but in order to be distracted one's 1st needs to be involved. and this is this something that i want to ask you about has the west over the last couple of decades, at least been genuinely involved in solving the, the most pressing developmental issues. not paying lip service to it, not the per saying, it's on commercial interest on that the guys of you know, aid or council, but truly trying to lead,

alleviate suffering for the sake of those who suffer. has there been periods of time when that was manifested? the help that has come from the wood bang from the i met with olivia over a certain period of time as being helpful. but if you look at the more recent history of santa, if we look at what the global south went through in the pandemic, when despite constant appeals to share the intellectual property on the vaccines, nothing was shared. we ended up, you know, one and 4 persons in the west was vaccinated by mid 2021. 1 in $500.00 was wax a to the globe in many low income countries of the global south. we also saw how it was russia and china and india that came to our help as you know, egypt program on, on the epidemic was jump started by sport. big. maxine and julia

also received the scene of farm vaccine from china, south africa, received from the cm institute of india. now the vaccines, the mexican that we needed so been help was really needed. it was not as forthcoming wrong. the vest as well as was victim or desired. the fact of the matter is that the help that has gone in the more recent past rom, china, wrong russia, rama even india to some of the real the south countries has been much more significant. i'll give you an example. over the past 20 years, china has provided loans, $250.00 countries to the extent of around $900000000000.00 over the past 20 years. not think of this, it 193 countries in the world. and in 50 of those countries, most of them in the south ever received loans,

both $900000000000.00 on china just 2 weeks ago and present good and met with the african leaders. you forgave debt around $20000000000.00 that the african countries or russia, you know, as they look to the future, they see russia as a source off would what eliza and energy they see china as a source of infrastructure, financing and manufacturing. so they're saying is the rest, the only game in town, or we have other options as we move me from the unique one, a world into a more money cycle. it was, is the future on which children and our grandchildren generation better protected by being open, not just the best, but the other countries. what i'm hearing you say is that russia, china, india, many other the so called developing countries are providing their neighbors and

countries, worlds apart with tangible assets, with something that they can actually improve people's lives. whereas the west continues a lot of, you know, doing the preaching. and this is something that is very interesting to me from a psychological point. this insistence on alicia because there's demands of leadership. sounds very infantile, both demanding and very insecure in the sense. and because when you are a self sufficient leader, you don't need it. others for validation, you know, your own value and your share, what you can share. but when you insist, so indignantly on, you know, the, they all much being paid than the other countries joining with you. i sounds a bit of insecurity there and this is what i want to ask you about. do you think the west is really secure about morally secure another militarily,

but morally secure about the kind of developmental paradigm that it's offering or rather imposing on the rest of the world? i think your is really, really valid point because there is some degree of uncertainty that has in my view that is coming about with regard to the message positions because to see a certain mom, mum boxy would be a what would be a certain do a standard you know, for example, the west point to a number of un resolutions that have come about that have been critical of russia's intervention in ukraine. but they totally ignore the various un resolutions that have been there that have that have challenged the vest on actions in yugoslavia, in iraq, in libya, in syria, in yemen and so forth. so it is nice to look at certain, hold on to certain aspects that would strengthen the best position. you know,

in substance what is happening is that these countries are not sanctioning russia. they're saying, in spite of these resolutions me at a certain stand that is important. so the best sees this and is saying in a minute, this is something to think about because that sensor, once it isn't pride, that they will be exceptional nation before that with the said the was would look up to is stop now starting to be questioning what the ukraine prices has done is it is for some of these issues, much more into the spotlight for the rest thing that 80 percent of the world. i mean, that's why new speak article last week. it said that almost 87 percent of the world is not sanctioning. russia is the reason for it, isn't this information is in russia and so forth. so they're starting to question, why is the reality so different from their expectations? well, because for years they believe that perception is reality, but it's actually different. i mean, the reality is,

reality and perception is perception. no matter how much money you try to put into it. now on the issue of sanctions, i read recently a very interesting interview with an advisor to the brazilian president sell. so amory and he meets the single point that the developing countries could not succumb to western pressure to impose sanctions on russia for purely physiological reasons . because when you have millions of people to feed, you cannot afford, especially if you are a democratic country, you cannot afford to put somebody is abstract values above your own, very mundane and practical necessities like food and fertilizer expert. so there is a, you know, sort of governmental imperative that countries need to take into account. and that's a simple reason for why they simply cannot afford to, to join the sanctions. it this the broadside, sanctions campaign even if they wanted to. now,

i wonder if the international politics could actually benefit from this influx of the mundane matters. bread and butter matters. ok. even though it came through this admittedly horrible word, do you think there is any silver lining in this whole conflict that we are having in this whole conflagration that we are witnessing right now? i think that there is a civilized lining asana. one most important civil lining is that it is not possible for the rest to expect that the whole world will support them on their actions as we just talked about 80 percent. not another civil lining is the fact that as a result of this prices, we are now seeing a partnership in emerging between russia and china. we're seeing a month type will emerging that is more protective of the global. so especially trade starts to take place in currencies other than the dollar. the

opportunity of the west to sanction the global south on a dollar based exchange is far more difficult if the trading is taking place in currencies other than the donor. and so i think what is the, another silver lining in my view of santa is the fact that because this crisis has brought the world to an edge rama survival standpoint. i think that once the gust settles on this and that is certainly my, please. once the dust settles, people are on the whole, we come to realize that we did not meet this crisis. we did not bring the whole world to the edge of that nuclear confrontation that to protect our children's generation and grandchildren generation. we have to go back to the fundamental security interest in each country has to ensure that they're on as prison, good, and has been saying, you cannot have security a one at the expense of another. the for i think this is also very important. you

cannot have the comfort than the living standards of one part of humanity at the expense of another. and we have only a minute left. but i, i, i still, we empathize with your plea for peace with as a rush. and i also have a certain urge for fairness and material fairness as well. maybe that's, you know, the echo my communist past and heritage. but, you know, the e road in one of your articles that the west can sustain this war as long as it takes because they have the financial resources and capital markets to do so. but is that truly the case? i mean, if we look at what's happening with the banking crisis, with in the united states, the mounting dad and liquidity problems, many countries divesting themselves from the u. s. dollar. what do you think are the best and the worst case scenario? what the west that south should the was be concerned about, its own comforts and sustainability in this case. i think the best case scenario would be, well,

the best to realize that be on the go together. we all have to be part of a secure future and we cannot continue to just support weston approaches to solutions to problems. but other countries interests have to be taken into gone . i think that's nasa was case. that's the best case. the, the other side is in my view of santa is that b, as long as it takes scenario is something that people are saying. but the fact that protests not taking place on the world, the fact that there's inflation and the rest is d industrialized taking place in part. so europe, entries starting to realize that this, as long as it takes scenario is not what is going to play out in the long run and we need to come to terms for peace. i come from a into background. in the hindu scriptures, it says there's an interesting question that laud, aren't you,

not ocelot krishna. how should one treat the other person and not krishnan replies? there is no other person which basically means that b, o, the same medic, ukraine, the global south, the west and beyond have to find ways and means to work together in peace. and i think that's the lesson we need to take away from this place. i have nothing to add by that clause here. you know, the golden rule is the oldest rule in the world, treat others as me yourself wanting to treat it. and that what you mentioned, that just another expression of that that's the old part of the one fabric and there are no exceptional nations. we are all unique in that own in our own special way. and we'll have our right to manifest our destiny. it's been a fascinating conversation, is mr. master. thank you very much for that. thank you please. and thank you for watching whole to see we're again on the world's apart.

ah. with mm. ah . the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, they were forced to wonder if he is a serious person, after all, europe is no longer strategic or economist

with ah, ah, i need to unite effort to counteract unilateral pressure. that's a message from survey rob as rushes top diplomat visits venezuela. in the past few years, it's become clear to everyone that dependence on the u. s. dolah dependence on those principles of globalization that the americans themselves have been

introducing for many years. it does not lead to any good purpose. sure. everything was said under the orders i was set in my interview for the 90 percent is a lie. obama wagner group fighter claims. he was blackmailed by human rights for