your problems are the world's problems, but the world's problems are not yours problems. this is how india foreign minister is summed up his countries position, visit the western pressure to take their side in the cranium conflict. how is this war changing the balance of power, responsibility, and wisdom within the so called developed and the developing world? well, to discuss that and now joins from massachusetts by christian math, that senior global justice follow at yale university. mr. methods. great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for inviting. now, let's a start with this often quoted statement by the engine foreign minister, which i found fascinating both for historical and psychological reasons. because here we have a former colony telling a former colonial master dug. it needs to get the grip. it needs to part with its infant tile illusions of omnipotence and it needs to take responsibility. how was

it perceived and received in the west? atlanta, i think the, what the water minister is saying is that the best needs to get out of this mindset that it's problems. other was problems, but the was problems are not the best problems. and i think he's making a very valid point that when we are under stress, whether it is a debt issues, whether it is inflation, unemployment famine, climate related prices, the west is not, not there to help us. like when the west, once the global south to support them on a certain position with respect to the crisis and ukraine. they put a lot of pressure on the globe out to support them to sanction russia, to criticize the war and so forth. and what the situation that he's saying is that look when we have our problems and we need your help,

you're not there to support us. so please step back for a moment and understand and empathize. i'm a problem, sar, before insisting on a 2nd letter method. do you think it was heard the same away? it was intended in the west, a think the west or a note of that statement, both in europe and hopefully in the united states. my, my post and view that the narrative is very much i they much in favor of what the rest would like to believe. but it, i think the weiss is be stay neutral in this crisis or they don't want to take sides. this situation is now being understood because it's more and more reporting in the press in the western press. why is it that this is happening? why said that? what people are supporting. and i think that's what i tried to explain in the top now, and i don't, i'm sure i have a sense at least that perhaps i would agree with me that no country, including,

by the way, russia in its official doctrine, supports war or even a limited military operation to conduct itself internationally. and yet, you know, russia for certain reasons feels that it was left with no other choice than pursue this for the course of policy. and even though, as you sat, most countries you know of been on the west and try to stay neutral, why do you think that position? at least in my, in my experience, it seems to be far more nuanced and circumspect than the western one. how do you explain that, apart from the plea for peace, because a, i guess maybe it's a leading question, but i sense that there is something more than just that, you know, an abstract desire piece there. i think it has to do with the underground structure of this whole conflict, if not the whole international system. yes, ma'am,

i think now some nuances to this position by the globe and sounds and, and, and that is perhaps a best explained by a few of my circumstances. and i will explain to you. one is, as we just talked earlier, that the global self believes that the west does not understand or empathize with its problems. and you know, the pandemic was a perfect perfect example of and they were left totally in the cold on this issue. the, the help did come wrong, russia from china, from india to the blue, the south, but the intellectual property was never shared. and, and then there's a lot of money that if there's an elephant tammy, be stuck in the same position. i think that's one reason. another reason is that the global south remembers it's colonial history many and they know that most of the o, mr. nations that are part of this alliance of you and they, to one of their former colonial powers. and they remember that history much better

than the western members. and they also know that it was a former soviet union that stood by them during that very difficult trauma. the colonial history. i think a tod reason is that the global south is saying that this ukraine, more is not our war. it is a war and more for the future of europe, then for the future of the entire world. but we are paying a very high price through inflation to high food prices with laser prices. i may have to pay very high, high price because it's not just a coincidence. the ones deliberately wants to put some of the burden on to the, the global south. it's not just happenstance, it's a deliberate policy. you know, there was a very interesting interview that the president of the world bank gave a last week mister damon, one that my boss in which he said that as a result off the rest having the capacity to issue

a lot of debt to subsidize its households. and businesses, as you know, you has issued almost 800000000000 euros of debt to subsidize this. the u. s. as you should not have been to subsidize, it's if people don't, mister mouthwash was saying that what is happening is that the west is devouring the capital of the won't do service this debt. it was on into high interest rates. the capital is flowing into the e. u and the u. s. to service is debt. and as her song, the vast is being high price because the cost of debt services bring up their ability to use resources to financed it on development goes down. and this is combined with inflation with high food prices and energy prices. and in a sense, they are paying a very high price, but a war in which they had nothing to do with it, which they're now being subject to pressure to try to take sites. in one of your articles, you mentioned that nelson mandela often said that it was the soviet support both

moral and material and that how the south africans to you overthrow the apartheid regime. and i think the kremlin at this point is trying to use a similar framing presenting the, the warranty ukraine as not just the, you know, a war between the 2 countries and certainly no other war for additional territory. but a conflict between the one country and the system that divides the global community ensure eternally privileged, the west and the eternally dam thought. they wrap her brave, which may be russia, china, iran, and many, many others. do you think that kind of framing resonates with the rest of the world? you know, i cannot speak with the entire human sound, but for me suddenly interval grades in a significant way. you know, i come from india, which has been at the receiving end of the british colonial. want to see 150 years

. as you know, britain's g d, p, today's around 3.2 trillion. but various studies have estimated that during the 150 years of the colonial history, the wealth that was taken from india alone was almost 20 trillion. to just think one country, the wells that was absorbed by britain was 40 trillion and india was not the only economy of. to be honest, i think the global south remembers its cloning history much more than the west to does. it is a button and off with them. i know people in mexico, for example, remember that it was the war in the mid 1900 century when united states. i went to war with mexico and took over a california and new mexico and texas. american children may not remember it, but children in mexico do. so in a sense, i, what i'm saying is that the memory of colonial history is long. the global sounds is almost forgotten in, in the north. and i, one of the concerns and the, and the,

and you mentioned mister mandela is that kind of sentiment that mister mandela was expressing that it was the moral and material support of the former soviet union. that inspired the southern africans to rise up upon account apartheid was very much understood and empathize with the rest of the day. and, you know, the global south also remembers that after independence came, it was not only the struggle for independence, but after independence game. it was the former soviet union that stood by them. i come from india, the belie steel plant, the largest infrastructure, steve landing post independent. india was designed and built by the former soviet union. so even though russia is not the soviet union and the communist systems that did not transfer over the russia in many so many different than the truth is in the eyes of the global south. russia is still seen as the i do not because success of

the phone with miss mister mccoy. this is such an important point because i think here in russia we have had maybe 2030 years of being ashamed of ourselves past. i'm sure there's some very dark truck tested, but there's also, you know, many of the good things and inspiring things and things that are worthy of respect . geniune and humanity, terran respect that you know, we ourselves have to, you know, come to grips with and i often hear for example from my south african gas to come on guys. you don't have to be so ashamed of yourself for anything. your own gong, which leads me to my next question because you mentioned before that many countries developing countries view the ukranian proxy war as a sort of a war for the future of the european security rather than the entire world. and i agree with that, but to the sides, to the 2nd extent, this is not what i hear from my south african indian or pakistani gas because oh,

sure they understand that rushes out for it's on the security, a strategic security interest that are sort of contextualized by the european security, but when one country takes on behalf jasmine and the system, the very exploitative and very unfair system that you know, it wants to protect at all costs. doesn't it also have certain global, you know, implications. i think in the global south, there is a much clearer understanding of the causes leading up to this crisis. even though the rest and position is that it is an unprovoked war. i think that wilma says understand that this is part of the u. s. lead western strategy for the containment of russia on the pathway to the containment of china and nato expansion. as being a big part of it. in spite of the constant promises that were made in the 1st bush

administration about not an inch eastwards. and in spite of the red lines that rushed, chef continued to reiterate to ukraine and ga. so it seems to us in the south that the narrative as many dimensions to it, many nuances to it. but it is quite easy to sort of the sent it as a one sided narrative. and i think many people in the middle, the south sea through that. they also see through the fact that this so called space international order under which the sanctions are being emboss, i really lacking in credibility and on it. i'm okay, well, can i stop here right here because this is a fascinating question. we need to explore then more detail, but before we do that, let's take a very short break. we will get back in just a few moments. ah,

the journey strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, then we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer strategic or a thomas with ah welcome back to world support with christian mac says senior global justice fellow

at yellow university mr. method just before i interrupted you, you were talking about the, the so called rules based order that it lacking credibility. and you also brought than one of your previous articles. the many in the developing world viewed the ukranian of war as a sort of distraction from the most pressing issues facing the, the global south. but in order to be distracted, one 1st needs to be involved, then this is this something that i want to ask you about has the west over the last couple of decades, at least been genuinely involved in solving the the most pressing developmental issues. nothing lip service to it, not the pursuing its own commercial interest on that the guys of you know, a door council, but truly trying to lead, alleviate suffering for the sake of those for suffering. has there been periods of

time when that was manifested? the help that has come from the will bang from the i met with olivia over a certain period of time has been helpful. but if you look at the more recent history of santa, if we look at what the global south went through in the pandemic, when despite constant appeals to share the intellectual property on the vaccines, nothing was shared. we ended up, you know, one and 4 persons in the west village vaccinated by mid 20211500. was wax a to the globe in many low income countries of the global south. we also saw how it was russia and china, and that came to our help as you know, egypt program on, on the demick was jump started by sport, big maxine oh. and julia also received the scene of farm vaccine from china,

south africa, received from the cm institute of india. now the vaccines, the mexican, that we needed so been help, was really needed. it was not as was coming wrong, the vest as well as what that did or desired. the fact of the matter is that the health that has gone in the more recent past rom, china, wrong, russia wrong. even india to some of the building up countries has been much more significant and give you an example. over the past 20 years, china has provided loans, $250.00 countries to the extent of what are $900000000000.00. over the past 20 years, i think of this it 193 countries in the world and in 50 of those countries, most of them. and now i've received loans both $900000000000.00 on china

just 2 weeks ago, and present good and met with the african leaders. you forgave debt around $20000000000.00 that the african countries or russia, you know, as they look to the future, they see russia as a source off more. what eliza and energy this he, china, is a source infrastructure, financing and manufacturing. so they're saying is the rest, the only game in town, or we have other options as we move me from the unique one, a world into a more money type. well, it was, is the future on which children and our grandchildren generation better protected by being open not just to the best, but the other countries. what i'm hearing you say is that russia, china, india, many other the so called developing countries are providing their neighbors and countries, worlds apart with tangible assets,

with something that they can actually improve people's lives. whereas the west continues a lot of, you know, doing the preaching. and this is something that is very interesting to me from a psychological point. this insistence on literature because there's demands of leadership. sounds very infantile, both demanding and very insecure in the sense. and because when you are a self sufficient leader, you don't need others for validation, you know, your own value and your share, what you can share. but when your insist, so indignantly on, you know, the, they all much being paid and the other countries joining with you. i sounds a bit of insecurity there. and this is what i want to ask you about. do you think the west is really secure about morally secure another militarily, but morally secure about the kind of developmental paradigm that it's offering or

rather imposing on the rest of the world? i think units really, really valid point because there is some degree of uncertainty that has in my view that is coming about with regard to the best positions. because to see a certain mom, mom aka seek would be a, what would be a certain do a standard, you know, for example, the west point to a number of un resolutions that have come about that have been critical of russia's intervention in ukraine. but they totally ignore the various un resolutions that have been there that have been a challenge the best on actions in yugoslavia, in iraq, in libya, in syria, in yemen and so forth. so it is nice to look at certain world on to certain aspects that would strengthen the best position you know, in substance what is happening is that these countries are not sanctioning russia.

they're saying, in spite of these resolutions be at a certain stand that is important. so the best sees this and is saying in a minute, this is something to think about because that sensor, once it instant pride that they would be exceptional nation, whatever they said the was would look up to is stop now starting to be question and what the ukraine prices has done is it has put some of these issues much more into the spotlight for the rest thing that 80 percent of the world. i mean, that's why i knew speak article last week in which said that almost 87 percent of the world is not sanctioning. russia is the reason for it. this is, this information is in russia and so forth. so they're starting to question, why is the reality so different from their expectations? well, because for years they believe that perception is reality, but it's actually different. i mean, the reality is, reality and perception is perception. no matter how much money you try to put into

it now on the issue of sanctions, i read recently a very interesting interview with an advisor to the brazilian president sell. so amory and he meets the single point that the developing countries could not succumb to western pressure to impose sanctions on russia for purely physiological reasons . because when you have millions of people to feed, you cannot afford, especially if you are a democratic country, you cannot afford to put somebody is abstract values above your own, very mundane and practical necessities like food and fertilizer experts. so there is a sort of governmental imperative that countries need to take into account. and that's a simple reason for why they simply cannot afford to, to join the sanctions in the broadside sanctions campaign even if they wanted to. now, i wonder if the international politics could actually benefit from this influx of

the mundane matters. bread and butter matters. ok. even though it came through this admittedly horrible war, do you think there is any silver lining in this whole conflict that we are having in this whole conflagration that we are witnessing right now? i think that there is a civilized lining asana. one most important civil lining is that it is not possible for the rest to expect that the whole world will support them on their actions as we just talked about 80 percent. not another civil lining is the fact that as a result of this prices, we are now seeing a partnership in them. emerging between russia and china. we're seeing among type will emerging that is more protective of the global. so especially trade starts to take place in currencies other than the donor. the opportunity of the west to sanction the global south on a dollar based exchange is far more difficult if the trading is taking place in

currencies other than the donor. and so i think what is the another silver lining in my view asana is the fact that because this crisis has brought the wolf to an edge, roma survival standpoint, i think that once the dust settles on this, and that is certainly my please. once the dust settles, people are on the whole, we come to realize that we did not meet this crisis. we did not bring the whole world to the edge of that nuclear confrontation that to protect our children's generation and grandchildren generation. we have to go back to the fundamental security interest in each country has to ensure that they're on as prison couldn't, has been saying you cannot have security a one at the expense of another the for i think this is also very important. you cannot have the comfort than the living standards of one part of humanity at the

expense of another, and we have only a minute left. but i, i, i still, we empathize with your plea for peace, but as a russian i also have a certain urge for fairness and material fairness as well. maybe that's a, you know, the echo my communist pass and heritage but you know, the road and one of your articles that the west can sustain this war as long as it takes because they have the financial resources and capital markets to do so. but is that truly the case? i mean, if we look at what's happening with the banking crisis or with in the united states, the mounting dad and liquidity problems, many countries divesting themselves from the u. s. dollar. what do you think are the best and the worst case scenario for the west that south should the west be concerned about its own comforts and sustainability in this case? i think the best case scenario would be, well, the west to realize that be on the go together. we all have to be bought off

a secure future and we cannot continue to just support weston approaches to solutions to problems. but other countries interests have to be taken into gone . i think that's, that's the worst case. that's the best case. the, the other side is in my view of santa is that the, as long as it takes scenario is something that people are saying. but the fact that protests not taking place on the world, the fact that there's inflation in the rest is d industrialized aching pig mason pod. so euro entries are starting to realize that this, as long as it takes scenario, is not what is going to play out in the long run. and we need to come to terms for peace. i come from, i'm into background. in the hindu scriptures, it says there's an interesting question that lot are do not ocelot crishna. how should one treat the other person and not krishnan replies. there is no other

person which basically means that b, o, the same medic. yeah. ukraine. the global south, the west and beyond have to find ways and means to work together in peace. and i think that's the lesson we need to take away from this place. i have nothing to add by that loss here. you know, the golden rule is the oldest rule in the world 3. the other says me yourself onto the tree that what you mentioned, that just another expression of that that failed part of the one fabric and there are no exceptional nations. we are all unique in that all in our own special way and we will have our right to manifest our destiny. it's been a fascinating conversation is a semester. thank you very much for that. thank you. please. thank you for watching call to see or again on the world's apart. ah,

with me. ah ah, during the 2nd well, when nazi occupied, poland, virginia was a farming region today as part of ukraine between 19431945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army, led by stepan. bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly horrific and brutal villages were burned and property looted. valinda massa is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. my al ukrainian politician,

still reluctant to talk about these events, how to modern day ukraine and poland view this tragedy of the past. and why does the memory of belinda still divide people ah ah ah, [000:00:00;00]

with hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, that we're forced to wonder if he is a rios person after all, europe is no longer strategic laura thomas with