has since become a russian citizen, the story that is not often told, though, is where snowden hid and with whom, while he was in hong kong. remember, at the time the entire world was looking for him, including several of the world's foremost intelligence services. why couldn't they find him? how did he remain free and who helped him get onto a plane to moscow? we'll talk about that and more with our next guest. robert keybo is a canadian national and an attorney focusing on constitutional and criminal law and human rights license to practice law and hong kong. he received advanced training in asylum and refugee law from a former united nation special rapid tor on torture. in 2013, he helped ed snowden and he began representing the refugees who took snowden into their home in hong kong. they're now known as the tivo refugees, and robert t bo remains an important player in the snowden story. robert,

welcome to the show. we're happy to have you. thank you very much. john's, my pleasure to if you're all today unusual. thank you. let's. let's begin at the beginning. this seems like one of those situations where you and the refugees had just happen to be in the right place at the right time when ed snowden made his revelations and then went on the run. what happened? how did this all begin? well, keeping the narrative, as simple as i can add snowden had arrived in hong kong in about mid may 2013. and towards the end of that month and an early june, the guardian had started publishing stories by based on information from a former agent. and this caught the attention of authorities and how can public these stories galvanized, you know,

public address in particular because glen greenwald, who has had written stories, talked about the prison program and the global electronic master valence. that the serv us was conducting and, and the fact that the other members of the 5 ice group, which would be canada, united kingdom, australia, were participating in the us. on june 9th, mr. snowden decided to permit more, appoint tristan greenway, to publish your air and interview he did with them, where you identified himself and explained his his role. and the reasons why he was stepping forward as a whistleblower to inform the public that was in the early hours in june 10th, 2013. and i received a call very early that morning and just needed

a lawyer to help it with that time of thought, i needed immediate access to mr. stone. i was calling to say that mr. snowden was grave risk in hong kong. he would be wanted by the us government and he would be a target of other governments. and hong kong has had a history in particular what examples of spend the saudi case and for where the on the forty's, assistive euclid and us government to apprehend. or i would not see everything unlawfully detain libya national. his wife and children were denied them their due process rights and access unit g r. and the us and u. k. put this family on a, on a rendition flight to libya, where he was having a family were detained and he was tortured. so when snowden had exposed himself to

the public, this was a real possibility that, you know, he could be extraordinary wrote rendition. he could be a victim of force disappearance or it can be killed. so i've got time. the 1st priority was to remove him from the hotel. he was up because the media were converging on his location. couple locations for that matter, trying to find him, bring them to you and hcr, and to raise an international protection claim. under the rescue convention. it was that that time a decision had to be made where to place mister snowden, for his safety in light of the government's past and lawful conduct. and you mentioned that the conditions were, were ideal for the i guess advice and then protection mr. summers able to

obtain with my refugee clients mister snow didn't give us very much time. so is more what resources do have at hand work in the state and say, so the approach, oh, the advice i gave him was no. and you should be staying with around the community because you raised refugee claim atlanta. and she are and these people have a high propensity to protect others. and they've all been victims of persecution, countries. and this would also be a community and would be placed in by the authorities would not think she would be staying with, you know, the refugee community and hong kong. i thought that that was the last place they would think. so the advice that was stay with this community, you'll be safe and you can continue to

make decisions on whether you want to stay on or whether you're going to move on to another jurisdiction. and so i asked a number of clients some if they were comfortable there and it's just don't stay with them. well knows my yes it did. this is very important because in it, at least in modern history, there's really no precedent for something like this. the, the refugees with whom he was staying, the refugees who took him in were just that they were refugees. they weren't chinese nationals. they were, they were certainly not trying to make waves. they were in danger of being deported. but these people jumped in to help. why did they do that? they don't seem to have had anything to gain a bit. that's an interesting question. john. there are other g community in hong kong is discriminated against both institutionally and

socially. they are a completely marginalized group. they are prohibited from participating in the normal activities to read the hong kong. they're allowed to work, they cannot have a bank account, they cannot receive education. so going to survive in this environment. they've been persecuted now. own countries, the success rate for refugee cleanser or follow claims and hong kong is low. austin point 5 percent. oh boy. they all knew that they all knew that it was virtually impossible for them to succeed in mclean. but what was interesting is when i introduced mister snowden to the clients, the clients. without hesitation, the patient recognized that mister snowman was in the same position. they had them

when they had faced persecution in their home countries and, and were compelled to just leave their homes. so it was a natural response from them. similar to whistleblower, they all made decisions of conscience recognized a man who was a great risk to his personal safety security. they understood that he had disclosed the greeting all eventually to be found illegal conduct by the us government finalize. and they made decisions of conscience to help them step forward. perhaps the most important question is, what was the fall out for them? what happened in the end to the refugees? did anything positive happen for them after snowden escape from hong kong? and when, when, after snowden left the jurisdiction and i want to be chronus,

just none wasn't reading your fiction to go to russia. he's going right to south america. that's right. but often after he laughed all the clients understood that it was, you know, important, but they main maintain confidentiality concerning mr. snowden and their role. and so from 2013 to 2016, that was, the clients did not disclose anything. now. and it was a difficult time for them because they were living, and i just already there were discriminated against but a 3rd party in 2015 about that time had disclose the identities or the existence of the refugees and in providing shelter, food, manatee. and mr. snowden, on that disclosures made to oliver stone and we. busy all learned that their role in helping mr. snowden would be in hollywood. mm hm.

and it was in 2016. before the film came out, the clients all decided that it would be safer for them if they went public. so they'd be in the public spotlight, they felt safer because the alternative to not would be, you know, hiding in the shadows, not identifying themselves. and for certain authorities would be knocking on the doors of all my clients kicking in some doors. and they were afraid something like that would happen. so they decided to go to the media and then dollars. sunstone came out september 2016, 16. and the public was aware who they were. it was at that point onward. that the hong kong authorities. without hesitation targeted, all the clients sought to expedite their refugee cases with a view to reject them based on procedural technicalities. ah,

they did well. he denied humanitarian assistance. they were trying to deny their due process rights. and when they did denied process rights, and they were arresting witnesses and questioning them about the refugees and extraordinarily the government allow the sri lankan police ca d officers to enter hong kong to target and hunt down the clients in hong kong in december, 2016 this, this was the situation, not where the government failed to provide state protection to the clients. in furthermore, with the housing authorities attempting to do was to have me removed from the case their cases. the police instead of investigating the police, were investigating my clients and myself so as

a to put it simply the, the conduct of the government was an abuse agreed to us and quite frankly, cruel. and there was the constant threat of removing our recording clients back to the sri lanka, one of the refugees was our homes, philippines. so that was a constant threat. and so it was a terrible time. and it was an example of, you know, we do the weakness of governments and their propensity to, you know, pick on the week. right? well, it's been 9 years since this known revelations. and it took years to get these refugees out of hong kong. can you tell us about their current status and tell us a little bit about the one that hasn't made it out yet? all right, well 1st and foremost, it was a very, very difficult process to,

to secure their, i would say international protection or protection that allowed them to go to adul reselling china very, very difficult. i just want to point out that initially the canadian authorities understood that the, the clients for all at risk and they were risk of being removed. and they understood that they were from under tremendous distress. shortly after the canadian authorities, you know, back tracked and decided that all were not going to quickly process their cases. the refugees can wait in line behind everyone else. right. which was very generic, cool. and so with, with a combination of public advocacy and also

a number of applications with immigration, canada, and through the courts. eventually the canaan authorities screened all the clients but unfortunately, they didn't make a decision all the cases at one time to bring them into canada. one time early, 2019, they decided vanessa rodella and her daughter's case, accepting them as refugees and to canada. so she doesn't act in the 1st round of cameron montreal and re shuttled there. the 2nd family were accepted on a humanitarian compassionate grounds. and i was in 2021. and they arrived about 2 years a little more than 2 years later. and the last refugee jeep bush morrow remains in hong kong. and he's been there for over 5 and a half years, waiting for the outcome of its reputation with canada. we are going to take

a short break and will return to talk more about the tea bo refugees stay tuned. ah. 2 ah, ah ah, the germ strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, they were forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer strategic or economist ah,

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in with oh. 2 welcome back to the whistleblowers. i'm john kerry. i'll go. we're speaking with robert tebow, a human rights asylum, refugee attorney who has found himself at the center of the ed snowdon case for much of the past 9 years. robert, thanks again for joining us. thank you. i want to ask you a few questions from the legal side when you were living and working in hong kong. you worked with you and hcr to protect, had snowden, and to ensure that he wasn't snatched and rendered by the ca or by any other intelligent service. how does one go about projecting

a client who is arguably the highest profile and most sought after person in the world? where do you even begin with, with mr. snowden case, or anyone who is in his position the there was a globe. the global media was descending upon on kong governments around the world, their interest or their focus descended upon hong kong in june of 2013. and it was clearly understood that you know mr. snowden profile and the significance of his disclosures as a whistleblower, put him at the grave risk. so 1st and foremost was to remove or quite enough vision would be to remove them from, take them off the radar. allowing the media and following the media would be the government. the authorities would simply just put, put mr. no,

no risk or any whistleblower in that same position. now in hong kong, it was interesting because mr. snowden couldn't speak of solemn protection from the government. that was impossible because the government only allows asylum seekers to make to raise claims for protection if they commit a criminal offense or immigration. because mister snowden was lawfully in hong kong at the time, he couldn't get any protection. but fortunately at that time, but not today, but at that time, the unit shars office was screening refugee applicants are applications. the units yards is considered a separate jurisdiction from hong kong know inside on call. so the key was to secure international protection for him by having them raises claim, because that would make it impossible or miss just to be deported, removed or even extradited from hong kong and tell us read you cleanser decided. so

that was in any case like that. now i want to be clear on one thing. mr. snowdon made us disclosures in the us. he would not be able to see gravity protection. a person can only see brother, you protection outside their jurisdiction. case like this. it will be on a shower, was key to provide that barrier protection mister snow. since returning to canada, you, as we've mentioned, have successfully secured refugee status for half dozen of the people who helped ed snowden in hong kong. i want to know how difficult that was did you experience any, any pushback, either from the canadian authorities or from foreign governments, especially the united states. as i mentioned earlier, initially the canadian government and communicated their understanding. but the refugee russia claims with immigration,

canada had to be expedited, they have to be across the board at risk in hong kong in or is by the us government or other members of the fiber. and i have no doubt there were conversations on, on, on this matter and the processing of these clients claims. now, for example, the canadian government had the ability to bring all the refugees immediately into canada based on the humanitarian and compassionate routes. canadian authorities didn't do that. applications for g r p temporary resident permits to bring the clients into canada, pending the outcome of the refugee claims that could have been done in the canadian authorities, didn't want to do that. and so clearly there were political, in my view, political considerations affected, i guess the, the delays,

the immigration, canada delays and processing claims, right. and unfortunately with, with a g p, camara. i mean, it is, you know, more than 5 and a half years at the stage that he's been waiting on call for decision and, well, well, actually i'm thinking this probably before mr. achieve his mental health is deteriorating significantly. luckily because he's been a lot in an environment where he's at risk. yes. actually, that was my next question i just pushed camara is the only person who help snowden in hong kong who has not yet been able to gain refugee status. i know that you're really not at liberty to speak freely about his case, but could you tell us why after all these years, he is not yet free to join the others in canada. what has held him up for?

i really can't say anything more than what i've said ok probably to date. but just to reiterate, mister, come, i was in the sure like an army. and as part of the refugee screening process background checks done on, on the clients and his particular background arrays, certain complexity because he was in the military. so i think that's one aspect but in, in, in terms of his specific circumstances. and in both like in hong kong, i all i can say is that it's, it's unfortunate that there have been delays with mom because it has done no no good for mr. for edgy and it has only contributed to his deteriorating health. finally, robert,

what changes need to be made either in international conventions, treaties or agreements or changes even in western domestic laws to make it easier for whistleblowers and those who put their lives on the line for whistleblowers to more easily obtain refugee status and begin new lives what should be done? there is some that's a good question and it's a complex issue. there. the, there's the definition of whistleblower. there's a whistle blowing was born in legislation in the u. s. which was under the label carbon, which on its face appears to concern complaints or was one of my employees. but when it comes to whistle blowing, that goes to the core of corruption, illegal criminal, or re just conduct of government or cooperation. dot down is

a different category of other and mr. snowdon cases, one example, your role as a list of law or example there's, there's a lack of legislation to provide protection for listen, lawyers about category. that's right. and the one thing, the one thing i'd like to point out, which is very important, is that for whistle blowing, level ok, exposing, you know, the most serious agreed yes or, or conduct of a government or an organization is thought the whistleblower invariably will have to go to a journalist to the media for protection. ok, now that that is well founded in law legal principal,

martin shine enough or home or special roberts repertoire on human rights and counter terrorism. pointed out that like mr. snowdon, there was no avenue for him to whistle blow internal to the us government. and in that situation, he had a really, he was compelled, media made a decision of conscience. so his was a wine was considered on a law firm under us legislation. but if he had not done so, ah, the public would never have been aware or never were never aware of the day. a full extent of yes, government's unlawful conduct. we're gonna leave it there. robert tuba, thanks for joining us. and thanks to our viewers for joining us for this episode of the whistle blowers remember, martin luther king told us that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but almost 2000 years earlier. seneca,

the elders said that it is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen. that's the common right of humanity. that's what the tivo refugees did, and the world is a better place because of it. i'm john, curiosity when you've been watching the whistle blowers, we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 ah, i rick sanchez and i'm weird. i didn't watch my your show seriously. watch somebody don't watch my show, but my just chin, dwayne thing, the she did, so do you know who's in the book says that it would be storm of food in my unit. i'm with animals continue listening

with when i was $2.00 with the i a largely the cool which i put enough to clean a little boys, even lynch, cisco and out of the stuff to get out. jenna. oh wow. that's all so so, so much now does i? and so the, so say on, if we don't ask for you until political mon, i, so up to us on the saw the anguish america lost so much so much national store to cheat about should be, is a, is a 0 that you have, but they will probably does. this is eva had a note on there palmer, she's planning on running away and they'll put him in a china offering to

negotiate peace talks between israel and palestine coming as other nations in the middle east, orange for chinese. after years long this brushes, foreign minister holds a series of high level talks with top diplomats on his tour of latin america. moscow strengthens colleagues in the region out. also ahead on the program, mexico's president takes us down against us intervention, making it clear that washington's agents and operatives are not with wherever you're capturing the program from today.