what more is disgusting is that these american media outlets in american celebrity are so ignorant of history, that they don't recognize the symbol and recognize the slap in the face that these young soldiers are doing. when they're posing in front of the symbol. the media should know better. mark hamill and other celebrities become more cognizant of history and recognize these natalie symbols for what they are. i would hope it was a standard swastika that they would recognize it. but given the historical ignorance in both western europe, in america you say, i'm not sure even a swastika be recognized by the media and these mindless celebrities. the west media has been pushing out the propaganda that ukraine has put out in hollywood celebrities, like campbell have completely bought into the idea that your brain is winning major victory when nothing could be further from the truth. and yet the allies from our government, the lives from our media, have willing participants the sheep in hollywood and other celebrities who again

are walking to you, praying support this conflicts on their behalf. steve giller weld the beta al, discussion to the for next. it is a fresh slice of cross talk action coming your way, john peter and guests and moments and i'll catch you again in 30. this is our to introduction a ah ah ah ah

hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, that we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person, after all, europe is no longer strategic flora thomas cross sucking strategic autonomy. i'm joined by my guess alpha does i. as in geneva, he is an author and a former u. n. independent expert. i'm international order in paris. we have john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy and in washington we cross matthew crossed and he is director of academic transformation about state university. i gentleman cross sack rolls in effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you in paris. i mean,

you and i have known each other knew, but on this program, as long as the french president mcfarland has been in office and you and i have pointed out a number of times that enter did gall trying to fight its way out of him. sometimes he gets to gall curious, but i don't take him seriously anymore because even when he says those kind of things the next day says something different, i think that is really emblematic of europe to place on the world today. go ahead, john. yeah, i mean, the big difference between a manual and michael and a child to go live there are so many of them is that all would never have talked about your european autonomy to gold talked about french autonomy and he understood that autonomy can only be national and that to any european dimension by definition was incompatible with autonomy. mccolan doesn't understand that macaroni thinks

that there can be such a thing as european autonomy. he believe all he occasionally, as you said in your question, petey occasionally says that. but actually there are contradictions in terms, and we saw this, for instance, when he went to china because he took rosena from the line with him. that was supposed to show that he was coming as a representative, a representative of europe. but between him and no sla from the lion, they're a very substantial differences and she is much more atlanta assist. i mean, he's pretty, atlanta says, but she's even more so. so what it him, taking her to china showed was that europe reduces its own autonomy by trying to be a permanent alliance because everybody pulls in different directions and the result is the lowest common denominator. and in addition to the fact of course, that as we all know, the european project, including the military dimension of it, is entirely an american creation and entirely under the control of the american. so

these are just words and i've, i've used this quotation once before on this program, but i, i, i think one can repeat myself every, every other year or so. the problem got macaroni is the same as a de gardener. deep down, he's very superficial. yeah. laugh on for, oh, i'll alfred you know, i mean, and in trying to, you know, in most of the world are talking about multi polarity, are the rise of the global south, the global majority. and it seems like the french president and others like him and relying upon old drugs that really don't make any sense anymore. and nobody really takes a needs to take seriously to work. for example, nato was expanded, nato is more powerful. oh no, i think it just made washington more powerful. not the alliance per se. so i mean, they all the they are all chasing the wrong rabbits down the wrong rabbit hole. alfred. yes, there are to do her. i don't. i absolutely agree with john. now i'd like to see the analysis of dr. cochran, but as the case may be, from my perspective, as

a former un staffer, and as a former wrap will church, it is quite clear that the europeans live in the, above all, we are actually a small clique, the europeans and the americans. the global majority is against us and we are actually isolating ourselves even further is not just mike wrong and his well, you know, and deep clos jury in china. i think that the g 7 meeting now of the foreign ministers is actually hallmark. ok. how isolated, basically, we in the west are be salary. the rest of the world, the shrubbery, the belts and road initiative. these have either prize that most countries in the world have refused to impose sanctions or russia, etc, etc. so it's

a question of perception of reality, but in our analysis, in our self righteousness, that's perception of reality is totally distorted. and i don't, i'm not optimistic that is going to change any time soon. i'd like to see the europeans realized that the united states is not it's friend. the united states is not an asset. the united states is actually a liability. the united states interest them. those are the or b and do not coincide. but again, there is an ally and bullying leak. it does going time. well, i mean, if there were any kind of democratic impulse left in europe, we might see a different direction. but i'm not counting on that here. matthew, one of the thing you alper is pointing out real things. belts, road. okay. trade diversifying from the dollar. but the europeans and the americans talk about ideology all the time. and i can't make any head details of what they're

talking. i needed translator. i don't know what they're talking about and that's why most of the world is turning away ukraine. that's your problem. you made it, you fix it. what do you want from us? oh, and we remember hundreds of years of you telling us what to do, but it didn't work out well for us. ok, i mean how tone deaf can you be mathew? i would, i love the commentary that we've had so far as the fact that there are, there are pieces that were touching upon. i think really back up for me. i'm not as i won't say cynical, that meant that's too strong. but when macro talks about strategic autonomy, what amazes me is the fact that i think the united states has always utilized strategic autonomy. if we really break down what strategic autonomy is in real terms, it what the united states doesn't like about micron using that term is the idea that your simply comparing it to use that bubble analogy that was just mentioned. these are power bubbles, right? these are bubbles of power that the united states controls and now micron would

that one phrase strategic autonomy is at least winking at the idea that there could be a chinese power bubble that might serve interests in europe as forcefully or as powerfully as american ones are and that is always infuriated, the americans, the americans are the only ones. and i've always found this fascinating is the fact that they will live ideologically in terms of how they speak before the diplomatic microphones and how they act in quarters of power in other nations. capitals, but in terms of actual real term efforts, they're not, they will always follow what their national interests are, but they don't want other countries to be able to follow those saying, well, i mean, i think, i think, i think maybe in theory, but i mean, john i mean, you know, i don't want to have this turned into my favorite hobby horse, but north stream to, i mean that's kind of a physical real thing. ok. that's being denied europe. ok. that goes beyond,

you know, double speak one in public, a one in private here. my point is john, here is that the europeans have given up almost all of the leverage that they have to actually have some kind of autonomy. john? well, i think that's because they're afraid. again, i've said this before on your show, they can see what the americans are capable of doing, including to them. and they are afraid that if they were to call the americans out on north stream, that there would be further attacks. so that's the reality of the alliance. sits in fact not an alliance at all. it so it's a mafia system of protection. and i think that that explains the extremely dysfunctional behavior of european politicians. there's no other rational explanation other than that they are afraid. and you know, they're, that that's what makes all the talk of autonomy. completely bogus. sits the talk of autonomy and michael's mouth. on michael's lips is simply intended to convince the

largely skeptical french audience of the continuing usefulness of the european union and to pretend that somehow france can protect herself as a world power within that framework. in reality, of course, even those old dreams from the 19 fifties and sixties are unraveling. or we're seeing an incredible geopolitical shift within europe. thanks to american support from germany to poland. poland is not a main ally of the united states in europe. poland is the gas harb because it opened its norwegian pipeline the day after the north stream, too was blown up by the americans. poland once to recreate, and indeed has in the form of some structures recreated a sort of into maria. i'm a sort of polish lithuanian commonwealth, a sort of glassy against russia. poland has presented

a 1.6 trillion bill for the 2nd world war to germany and so on and so on. and in that context of france is totally marginalized as it germany for that matter. so all this is simply intended to curve all a increasingly skeptical french public opinion backend to some support for the european project, which is everybody knows is itself completely bogus. yeah, well alfred, you know, it's interesting about what you can say and what you can say. ok, there are plenty of people that would like to see more french autonomy, european autonomy. and i like the distinction that john has made here. but there's a lot of other people in the leaks and say, hey, we're pretty high in the pecking order in the empire. is things that go in grade for us, and we to better bako. she's pretty doing great in those paradigm. i mean, this is for me is one of the things that i want to talk about in the 2nd half the program is that so much of this is a meet an ideologically driven alford. before we go to the break, go ahead. yeah. democracy. if you ask the frank people,

they will tell you they don't want that and they will tell you they want negotiation. they don't want to send more weapons to ukraine. notwithstanding. what do my grades in linmore goal if you go all or in another crack with algamite title? i speak with people real people. and i don't find anyone who's excited about sending more weapons on to ukraine or about joining the campaign against china and getting, getting up on the one china policy. that's all extremely dangerous. and the europeans have to stay away from this. uh, tie one of niandra. i would propose referenda asked the oh oh i have fred alfred, no doubt you know, alfred, there's too much democracy in the weather is too dangerous for democracy. that's why with the newest members of nato. don't have referenda. no, no, no,

because it's too dangerous to gentlemen. i have to jump in here, we have to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on strategic autonomy stake with our team. ah no one else seem wrong when i just don't hold it yet to see how the theme becomes the applicant. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. ah, welcome back to craft sack where all things are considered on peter lavelle. tremendous. were discussing strategic autonomy.

okay, let's go back to matthew in, in washington, matthew, before we started our recording here, i was talking privately with, with john and my kind of lamented that i that myself and i think john included, or maybe all of us are forced to talk about politics. when most of us would love to talk about culture and society, and that's how i kind of look at these put these e leads here because they have cultural affinity, social affinities. when you listen to for european on a foreign ministers traveling, they talk about ideas. they talk about what kind of society they want and the, the, the, creating the new human condition. they don't really talk about what's good for italy are good for him. netherlands, good for france, good for german, they talk about themselves. they talk about their elite and their elite ideas, which of course are superior to the people that of bad that vote for them. go ahead, matthew. well, i think that's very true, but i also think that sometimes what it's missed,

especially in terms of the narrative that gets pushed in the united states, is that there's also a hierarchy within the elite itself. yep. and the americans push very hard to make sure everyone is very clear, that at the top of that elite hierarchy is the american elite, tal g for lack of a better term. and they want to make people understand. and that's why i come from a national security intelligence background. so i don't really look at it ideation only when it, when micro talks about strategic autonomy. i see it much more from the practical reality of saying, we're not comfortable with how the united states has largely basically through this conflict and ukraine. told all of europe. where else are you going to go? you have us and you have no one else. there is no other legitimate idea, there is no other legitimate alliance that you can rely on. and therefore, he's manipulating the phrase almost to me in a terminal, almost making it de facto like classical neutrality, which is i'm going to pursue our interest wherever they may lead us and, and i'm not automatically aligning with you on every single issue just because

you're at the top of beverly pyramid, that's what i think what infuriates the american soma. and well, john, that's kind of like from the superior soprano as you know, you had a bi administration say as a kind of a nice presidential policy out there in france. you know, would be a pity if something happened to it. i mean, this is, this is exactly what it is. i do agree with matthew, that is very high article. everything is high article ok everything. and, but i mean, but without what i find fascinating and deplorable is that there are so many people that, wow, down to this hierarchy and think it's a good gig for them. i mean, just because your prime minister of a european country, i thought the end of your career, not just the beginning. okay. i mean, it's a, it's all a towards a griff. okay. and you get away with it by siding with, you know, the right side of history, the great americans, you know, a liberalism, they have all of these covers for their own self interest because dealing with the

nitty gritty of fixing roads and having water quality. that's boring. john, well again, i think the concept of ideology that you introduced in your questions earlier is very important, you know, 20 years off to the end of the nation for diplomacy, for compromise of that phenomenon. yeah, i'm not worried about the landscape hearing and all those venues. i'm sure he is. his checks are cashed to all across europe without a problem. okay. member chang. i shall remember his nickname with cash. my check that we have to find the ukrainian version cash. my check, i'll alfred, you know, we're very pessimistic here right now because i don't see any tools or any ideas or a ca dray. they can actually shake things up. i say, it really seems that europe is a straight jacket itself to washington. that's not a bad i would take, i mean, because if you look at the middle east, by china as initiatives, i mean pieces breaking out all over the place and the americans have no control

over apparently at all i, i see which the arc of history i would like to be on i'd like to be on the side a piece. alfred. well of course, but it's amazing that all our think tanks really came. so the heritage foundation now they had not realized that we are so i cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and that the belton road initiative and everything else be faxing over. now the main problem that i see in the west, and that includes switzerland, where i lay, is the mainstream media. the main story media is brainwashing, is indoctrination. and 2 books come to my grade, new world of algo, hopefully. and of course $984.00 on george orwell. we live in that this dopey and i don't see any awakening right now. thank god, there is something called consortium news and counter punch and prove out.

and the real news network on intersect 9 god, there's still sputnik and r, p, and z and, and asia times and the mobile times, et cetera. but that is for us who actually go out on our way to get the information . i get different narratives and try to evaluate what the masses they go during the television on their watch, cnn. and that's all they get. and that is the problem. if you have a democracy where the entire population has been indoctrinated into believing as a matter of faith, that we are the good guys believing that we have the right to do what we're doing. i mean, we have locked ourselves into this situation, which is very difficult to get out. yes, yes, absolutely. and pending are themselves into a corner. matthew,

i want to take advantage of your past professionalism here. can you comment if you want on these document weeks? what do you think of it? because, i mean, it's very interesting how it summer using it to, to shift it narratives, change perspectives on the crane and other things like that. um and, and i've talked to a lot of people in the intelligence community, mostly retired and most of, with this kind of scratch their heads over. what do you think of it? this is obviously for, for my line of work, this is sort of occupying the front end of the desk at the moment. i says it's plastered everywhere within the united states and people are fascinated by it. there are practical aspects that probably go beyond what we're talking about or maybe seem small potatoes in the bigger discussions we're having right here. but i think it is starting to show some regular quote unquote regular citizens in america . that there is definitely a problem in united states in terms of the,

the categorization of clearances. we have far too many people that get clearances, security clearances within our, within our governmental military intelligence communities. and were seen because of who did the leaks and why that person's well. okay, matt. matthew, let me, let me jump to the chase here. how did this kid get these kinds of documents that was that's the question. and what are they in? are they and are they real ok? oh, i think they are real because that is people too often want to take the hollywood version. they get fed a lot in terms of the intelligence community. we have 1400000 people with security clearances in the united states. and not all of them are senior officials with decades of experience. we have too many documents that get classified in order to process them. we end up with people like the individual that did the leaking with access to documents that now the thing i'd want to push back on is the idea of just how powerful were these documents that he actually leaked on to his gamer site.

right, i mean there was some embarrassing things there to be sure. but the idea that, well, i don't know if taiwan is ready for a chinese incursion militarily. or if we don't keep doing what we're doing in ukraine, ukraine could end up facing real start. wow, it came on math evening and if you bring up a varies or acres, you know, you bring up a very interesting point because they discussions i've had with people is that if you really put your nose to the grindstone and look at all, you know, the u e, for example, i like that. and none of these documents say anything particularly new. okay. but they're being presented as some kind of splash. okay. what kind of ship gears could ramos running out of time here? but john, i'm a, what is the feeling in the, in france? i mean we, we had this pension reform here. i suppose that you know, i'm a chrome did paula to gall and dis, you had got it done his own way here. what kind of pressures are people? what kind of pressures are people feeling as this conflict in ukraine continues when the prospects are very bleak for nato,

irrespective of all the propaganda that people are being fed. 45 seconds to my friend. well, i'm afraid, i think france is no different from anywhere else. i think there is a mass media problem that albert alfred design mentioned. and while there may be a higher degree of understanding for russia and france than in other countries, i don't think france is substantially different. the west predictions have not come true. i have to say that haven't been power cuts in france. they haven't been, that hasn't been serious hauled ship just as the west pred predictions happen. come through, come true for rush or either. right. so it way it's off the news, and people instead are worried about, you know, pension reform, as you say, the ukraine thing is not really at the top of the gender at the moment. it's dragging on and i think that's probably part of russia's. i've been strategy. i think russia knows that there will be war fatigue. yeah, pretty good if not already all of the nay sayers that have had over the last 15

months. i've said the same thing here. there the different size have different agendas and timeframes who's got the cox and who's got the time or a gentleman that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in paris, switzerland, and in washington. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross stuck with ah ah, in 1834 france invaded algeria, and straight away the french started inhabiting it to strengthen their position. the colonists, known as p a. no ours took the best land from day one, the local population was put into an unequal position and was brutally exploited.

these goss mazda, the people of algeria, began their long term fight for independence. in 1954, the banner of freedom was raised by the national liberation front. a guerrilla war against the occupants broke out. the french tried to suppress to rebellion using cruel measures. all villages were wiped out acts of georgia and executions of civil people, including pregnant women, children and old people took place more than 2000000 people were bought into concentration camps. however, these punitive measures didn't help the algerian patriots managed to induce france the start fees, negotiation. in 1962, evian records were signed, voting algeria on the past towards independence. but this was achieved at a colossal price. algeria by rights is considered to be

a country of martyrs. according to the calculations of historians, the french colonists are responsible for the deaths of one and a half 1000000 algerians. ah . ah, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term,

then we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person after all, europe is no longer strategic or economist. ah, saudi arabia's foreign minister meets with syrian president bus sharla in damascus, bridge decade long fries and relations, coming as other nations in the middle east, we forward valleys following years old. this also a head on the program. this, our russian foreign minister owns a series of high level talks with the top diplomats on his tour of latin america as moscow strengthens rise in the region. all while mexico pushes back against it. cia long history of meddling in the country. politics with several former presidents being referred to as i've said of the u. s. intelligence fil lives. brussels

purchase the new countries to lift a bond on ukrainian grain.