some time, family, other celebrity should become mindless. the info is where snowden hid and with whom, while he was in hong kong. remember, at the time the entire world was looking for him, including several of the world's foremost intelligence services. why couldn't they find him? how did he remain free and who helped him get onto a plane to moscow? we'll talk about that and more with our next guest. robert t. beau is a canadian, national, and an attorney focusing on constitutional and criminal law and human rights license to practice law and hong kong. he received advanced training in asylum refugee law from a former united nation special repertoire on torture. in 2013, he helped ed snowden and he began representing the refugees who took snowden into their home in hong kong. they're now known as the tivo refugees, and robert kibo remains an important player in the snowden story.

robert, welcome to the show. we're happy to have you had your lunch. john's, my pleasure to euro today. unusual. thank you. let's. let's begin at the beginning . this seems like one of those situations where you and the tivo refugees had just happened to be in the right place at the right time. when ed snowden made his revelations and then went on the run. what happened? how did this all begin? well, keeping the narrative, as simple as i can. add snowden had arrived in hong kong in about mid may, 2013. and towards the end of that much and in early june, the guardian had started publishing stories by based on information from a former cia agent. and this caught the attention of

authorities and how can public these stories galvanized, you know, public interest in particular because glen greenwald, who has had written stories, talked about the prison program and the global, electronic master valence. that the served us was conducting and, and the fact that the other members of the 5 ice group should be canada united kingdom, australia, new zealand, were participating in the us. on june 9th, mr. snowden decided to permit more appoint tristan greenwell, to publish your aaron interview. he did with him, where you identified himself and explained his his role. and the reasons why he was stepping forward as a whistleblower to inform the public that was in the early hours in june 10th. 2013. and i received

a call very early that morning. and mr. snowden needed a lawyer. he needed help. it was time of thought, i needed immediate access to mr. snowden. i was cognizant, but mr. snowden was grave risk in hong kong. he would be wanted by the u. s. government, and he would be a target of other governments. and hong kong has had a history. in particular, one example is a semi saudi case. and for where the all the authorities assist, if you play in us government to apprehend or i would not see everything unlawfully detain, libby and national his wife and children at work denied them their due process rights and access unix yard and the u. s. and u. k. put this family on a, on a rendition flight to libya, where he was, having his family were detained,

that he was tortured. so when snowden had exposed himself to the public, this was a real possibility, but no, he could be extraordinary route rendition. he could be a victim of course, disappearance, or it can be killed. so i've got time on the 1st priority was to remove him from the hotel. he was up because the media were converging on his location. couple locations for that matter, trying to find him, bring them to you and hcr, and to raise an international protection claim under the rescue convention. it was that that time a decision had to be made where to place mister snowden, for his safety. in light of the house and governments passed on lawful conduct and you mentioned that the conditions were we're

ideal for the type of i guess advice and then protection. and i was able to train with my refugee clients. this is not, didn't give us very much time, so it's more what resources do we have at hand work in the state and say, so the approach the advice i gave him was, you know, you should be staying with around the community because you raised a reference to claimant that you are and these people have a high propensity to protect others and they've all been victims of persecution in countries. and this would also be a community that would be placed in that the authorities would not think he would be staying was you know, the refugee community in hong kong. that was, that was the last place. so the advice that was stay with this community,

you'll be safe and you can continue to make decisions on whether you want to stay and whether you're going to move on to restrictions. and so i, after number of clients, if they were comfortable for, to have this, you know, stay with them. well, why did this is very important because in at least in modern history, there's really no precedent for something like this. the refugees with whom he was staying, the refugees who took him in were just that they were refugees. they. they weren't chinese nationals. they were, they were certainly not trying to make waves. they were in danger of being deported. but these people jumped in to help. why did they do that? they, they don't seem to have had anything to gain. and that's an interesting question,

john. there are other g community in hong kong is discriminated again, both institutionally and socially. they are a completely marginalized group. they are prohibited from participating in the normal activities. ready you know, read their work, they cannot have a bank account, they cannot receive education. so going to survive in this environment. they've been persecuted now. own countries, the success rate for refugee cleanser or fall on claims. and hong kong is low in point 5 percent. oh boy, they all knew that they all knew that it was virtually impossible for them to succeed in mclean. but what was interesting is when i introduced mister snowden to the clients, the clients. without hesitation, the patient recognized that mister snowman was in the same position. they had them

when they had faced persecution in their home countries and, and were compelled to just leave their homes. oh, it was a natural response from them. similar to whistleblower, they all made decisions of conscience. he recognized the man who was a great risk to his personal safety security. they understood that he had disclosed the greeting all eventually to be found illegal, conduct by the us government finalize. and they made decisions of conscience to help them step forward. perhaps the most important question is, what was the fall out for them? what happened in the end to the tivo? refugees? did anything positive happen for them after snowden escape from hong kong?

when, when, after snowden left the jurisdiction, i want to be careless. just now wasn't leaving your section to go to russia. he's going to south america. that's right. but after you left, all the currents understood. but it was, you know, important that they main maintain confidentiality concerning your snowden and they're all. and so from 2013 to 2016, that was the clients did not disclose anything. and it was a difficult time for them because they were living in poverty there were discriminated against but a 3rd party in 2015 about that time had disclose the identity or the existence of the refugees in providing shelter and food manager. and i'll call that disclosures may tolliver stone and we. busy all learned that their role in,

you know, helping mr. snowden would be, you know, hollywood, it was in 2016 before the film came out, the clients all decided that it would be safer for them if they went public. so they'd be in the public spotlight, they felt safer because the alternative to not would be, you know, hiding in the shadows, not identifying themselves. and for certain stories would be knocking on the doors of all my clients kicking in some doors. and they were afraid something like that would happen. so they decided to go to the media and then not everything still came out. september 2009, 616. and the public was aware who they were. it was up that point onwards that the hong kong authorities, without hesitation targeted all the clients, sought to expedite their refugee cases with

a view to reject them based on procedural technicalities. they denied humanitarian assistance. they were trying to deny their due process rights and they did deny or due process rights. they were arresting witnesses and questioning them about the, the refugees and extraordinarily, the hong government allowed sri lankan police officers to enter hong kong to target and hunt down the clients in hong kong in december 2016 this, this situation, not where the government failed to provide protection to the clients. furthermore, with stories attempted to do was to have me removed from the case their cases on the police instead of investigating the least were investigating my clients and

myself. so it was to put it simply to conduct the government was an abuse. agree jesus and quite frankly, cruel. it was the constant threat removing or deporting the clients to land. one of the refugees was from the philippines, so that was a constant threat. and so it was a terrible time and it was an example of, you know, we can, the weakness of governments and their propensity to, you know, pick on the week. right. well, it's been 9 years since this known revelations. and it took years to get these refugees out of hong kong. can you tell us about their current status and tell us a little bit about the one that hasn't made it out yet? all right, well 1st and foremost, it was a very, very difficult process to,

to secure their, i would say international protection or protection that allowed them to go to adul reselling very, very difficult. i just want to point out that initially the canadian authorities understood that the, the clients for all at risk and they were risk of being removed. and they understood that they were inter, under tremendous distress. shortly after the canadian authorities, you know, backtracked and decided that all were not going to quickly process their cases. the ravages can wait in line behind everyone else, right. which was a tour and eric, sure, narrowly cool. and so with,

with a combination of public advocacy and also a number of applications with immigration, canada, and through the courts. eventually the canaan authorities screened all the clients but unfortunately, they didn't make a decision all the cases at one time to bring them into canada. one time early, 2019, they decided vanessa rodella and her daughter's case, accepting them as refugees and to canada. so i was 2019 the 1st round of cameron montreal and re shuttled there. the 2nd family were accepted on a humana chain. compassionate grounds. and i was in 2021. and they arrived about 2 years a little more than 2 years later. and the last refugee jeep bush. the camera remains in hong kong, and he's been there for over 5 and

a half years waiting for the outcome of its reputation with canada. we are going to take a short break and will return to talk more about the tivo refugees stay tune ah . 2 the germ strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, they were forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer a strategic more economist hi, i'm rick sanchez and i'm here to plead with you. whatever you do, do not watch my your show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. i listen to opinions that you won't get anywhere else. look of it please. if you have

the state department, the c, i a weapons makers, multi $1000000000.00 corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. why change and whatever you do, don't want my show stay mainstream because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show was called direct impact, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way. mm thing . oh, welcome back to the whistleblowers, i'm john kerry. aku, we're speaking with robert tebow, a human rights asylum, and refugee attorney who has found himself at the center of the ed snowden case for much of the past 9 years. robert, thanks again for joining us. thank you. i want to ask you a few questions from the legal side when you were living and working in hong kong. you worked with you and hcr to protect ed snowden and to ensure that he wasn't snatched and rendered by the cia or by any other intelligent service. how does one

go about projecting a client who is arguably the highest profile and most sought after person in the world? where do you even begin? always with mister snowdon case, or anyone who was in his position the there was a globe. the global media was descending upon on kong governments around the world . their interests are their focus descended upon hong kong in general, 2013. and it was clearly understood that you know mister snowdon profile and the significance of his disclosures as it was a war, put him at the grave risk. so 1st and foremost was to remove or client and would be to remove them from, take them off the radar, allowing the media and following the media would be the government. the authorities

would simply just put, put mr. no net risk or any whistleblower in that in that same position. now in hong kong, it was interesting because mr. snowden couldn't speak of solemn protection from the government. that was impossible because the government only allows asylum seekers to make, to raise claims for protection. if they commit a criminal offense or immigration, because mr. snowden was lost in hong kong at the time, he couldn't get any protection. but fortunately at that time, but not today, but at that time, the units yours office was, were screening refugee applicants or applications. the units yards is considered a separate jurisdiction from hong kong know inside on kong. so the key was to secure international protection for him by having them raises claim, because that would make it impossible or miss just to be deporting removed or even

extradited from hong kong and tell us right you claims for decided. so that was in any case like that. now i want to be clear on one thing. mister snowdon made us disclosures in us he would not be able to see gravity protection. a person can only see brother protection outside their jurisdiction. case like this. it will be on a shower, was key to provide that barrier protection to mr. snow. since returning to canada, you, as we've mentioned, have successfully secured refugee status for half dozen of the people who helped ad snowden in hong kong. i want to know how difficult that was did you experience any, any pushback, either from the canadian authorities or from foreign governments, especially the united states. as i mentioned earlier, initially the canadian government and communicated their understanding that but the

refugee russia claims with immigration, canada had to be expedited. they have to be process quickly because it was, it was obvious to to any observer that they were at risk in hong kong. and again, the canadians back track a couple months later and then there were delays and a lot of questions have been raised, you know, what pressures may have been put on the game or is by the us government or other members of the fiber. and i have no doubt there were conversations on, on, on this matter and the processing of these clients claims. now, for example, the canadian government had the ability to bring all the refugees immediately into canada based on the humanitarian and compassionate routes. and canadian authorities

didn't do that. applications for g r p temporary resident permits to bring the clients into canada, pending the outcome of the refugee claims that could have been done in the canadian authorities, didn't want to do that. and so clearly there were political, in my view, political considerations affected, i guess the, the delays, immigration, canada, delays and processing these ones, right? and unfortunately with, with a g camara. i mean, it is, you know, more than 5 and a half years at the stage, but he's been awaiting an on call for decision and, well, well, actually, just probably before on mr. a. jeez, his mental health institute in significant, locally because he's been a law in an environment where he's at risk. yes. actually,

that was my next question i just pushed kamara is the only person who help snowden in hong kong who has not yet been able to gain refugee status. i know that you're really not at liberty to speak freely about his case. but could you tell us why after all these years, he is not yet free to join the others in canada. what has held him up for? i really can't say anything more than what i've said ok. probably to date. but just to reiterate, mister, come, i was in the through like an army and as part of the refugee screening process, background checks done on, on the clients. and his particular background arrays, certain complexity because he was in the military. so i think that's one aspect. but in, in, in terms of his specific circumstances and in both like in hong kong

i all i can say is that it's, it's unfortunate that there have been delays, but mom has done no, no good for mister, for edgy. and it has only contributed to his deteriorating health. finally, robert, what changes need to be made either in international conventions, treaties or agreements or changes even in western domestic laws to make it easier for whistleblowers and those who put their lives on the line for whistleblowers to more easily obtain refugee status and begin new lives what should be done? there is some that's a good question and it's a complex issue. there. the, there's the definition of whistleblower. there's a whistle blowing with legislation in the u. s. which was under the label carbon,

which on its face appears to concern complaints or was one by employees. but when it comes to whistle blowing, that goes to the core of corruption, illegal criminal, or re just conduct of government or, or cooperation dot. that is a different category. all other and mr. snowdon case is one example your role as a whistleblower example there's there's a lack of legislation to provide protection for list of lawyers about category. that's right. and the one thing, the one thing i'd like to point out, which is very important, is that for whistle blowing, level ok, exposing, you know,

the more serious agree just or conduct of a government or, or an organization is thought the whistleblower invariably will have to go to a journalist, to the media for protection. ok, now that that is well founded in law, legal, principal, martin shining, or former special roberts, rob tour on human rights and counter terrorism. pointed out that like mr. snowdon, there was no avenue for him to whistle blow internal to the us government. and in that situation, he really made a decision of conscience. so his was a line was considered a law firm under us legislation. but if he had not done so, the public would never have been aware or never were never aware of the full extent

of the us government's unlawful conduct. we're going to leave it there. robert keybo, thanks for joining us. and thanks to our viewers for joining us for this episode of the whistle blowers remember, martin luther king told us that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but almost 2000 years earlier. seneca, the elders said that it is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen. that's the common right of humanity. that's what the tivo refugees did, and the world is a better place because of it. i'm john curiosity and you've been watching the whistleblowers. we'll see you next time. ah. 2 2 name in boston, sabrina. put bombing in. so then on this it will be a call yet no blessed sauce. that was to be fish. she did so do you know the pin? i'm not sure let us,

but that's our growth net that was on the indian dive discount for joseph. miss alex is launching a on i was in the book says that will be almost a month. you may still have to continue listening to what you know. so it's just, you can give me some support for us dollars on a box which i put in a sickly and a little pause even that lynch sits going out of the sky. good, jenna says image, as i have for the saw snow say on the reason i ask you is, i'm sure political small. i said i went to a some, a saw the english. i met you both so much so much lucille store

to see go out. should be, is it is a 0, a 0. i had a note on there for much fun and i was running away. no problem with resetting the dial a decade without relation comes to a close. saudi arabia as foreign minister with syrian president, bashar al assad in damascus, joining other nations in the middle east. we forging ties. after years with russia, foreign minister holds a series of high level talks with the top diploma on his tour of latin america. moscow strengthens with mexico, how she's back against this cia, long history of meddling in the countries politics. but several former presidents

being referred to other assets of the us intelligence co op from brazil's portrays e.