and celebrity are so ignorant of history that they don't recognize the simple and recognize the slap in the face that these young soldiers are doing. when they're posing in front of the symbol, the media should know better. mark hamill and other celebrities become more cognizant of history and recognize these not the symbols for what they are. i would hope if it was a standard swastika that they would recognize it. but given the historical ignorance in both western europe and america, you say, i'm not sure even a swastika will be recognized by the media and these mindless celebrities. the west media has been pushing out the propaganda that ukraine has put out in hollywood celebrities, like campbell have completely bought into the idea that your brain is winning major victory when nothing could be further from the truth. and yet the allies from our government, the lives from our media, have willing participants the sheep in hollywood and other celebrities who again are walking to you, praying support this catholics on their behalf. well,

there are some this news our, the whistle blows up. thanks. will be back on top of the i was going national news . we hope to join us again. ah, ah, the most people all around the world who follow the news? remember the events surrounding the revelations made by whistleblower? edward snowden, snowden, a former employee of the cia, and later, a contractor for an essay, released hundreds of thousands of pages of information to week leeks. that proved to be american government was spying on its own citizens in violation of the law. among other things, snowden, at the time of his revelations, was living in hawaii. he made his way to hong kong and then to moscow on his way to

ecuador. but while he was in moscow then us secretary of state, john kerry, revoke his us passport and stranded him. there snowden has since become a russian citizen. the story that is not often told, though, is where snowden hid and with whom, while he was in hong kong. remember, at the time the entire world was looking for him, including several of the world's foremost intelligence services. why couldn't they find him? how did he remain free and who helped him get onto a plane to moscow? we'll talk about that and more with our next guest. robert t. beau is a canadian, national and an attorney focusing on constitutional and criminal law and human rights license to practice law and hong kong. he received advanced training in asylum and refugee law from a former united nation special rep, a tour on torture. in 2013, he helped ed snowden and he began representing the refugees who took snowden into

their home in hong kong. they're now known as the tivo refugees, and robert t bo remains an important player in the snowden story. robert, welcome to the show. we're happy to have you signed your lunch. john's, my pleasure to euro today unusual. thank you. let's see. let's begin at the beginning, this seems like one of those situations where you and the tivo refugees had just happen to be in the right place at the right time when ed snowden made his revelations and then went on the run. what happened? how did this all begin? well, keeping the narrative, as simple as i can. add. snowden had arrived in hong kong in about mid may 2013. and towards the end of that month and an early june, the guardian had started publishing stories by based on information from

a former cia agent. and this caught the attention of authorities and public these stories galvanized, you know, public interest in particular because glen greenwald, who has had written stories, talked about the prison program and the global electronic master valence. that the serv us was conducting and, and the fact that the other members of the 5 ice group should be canada united kingdom, australia, new zealand, were participating in the us. on june 9th, mr. snowden decided to permit more tristan greenway, to publish your air and interview he did with them, where you identified himself and explained his his role. and the reasons why he was stepping forward as a whistleblower to inform the public that was in the early hours in june

10th. 2013. and i received a call very early that morning. and mister snowden needed a lawyer. he needed help. it was time of thought, i needed immediate access to mr. stone. i was conscious of mr. snowden was grave risk in hong kong. he would be wanted by the u. s. government, and he would be a target of other governments. and hong kong has had a history. in particular, one example is a semi saudi case. and for where the all the authorities assistive u. k and us government to apprehend or i would not say unlawfully detain libby and national his wife and children at the airport, denied them their due process rights and access unix yard. and the us and

u. k. put this family on a, on a rendition flight to libya, where he was in the family were detained and he was tortured. so when snowden had exposed himself to the public, this was a real possibility, but, you know, he could be extraordinary route rendition. he could be a victim of force disappearance or it could be killed. so i've got time. the 1st priority was to remove him from the hotel. he was on because the media were converging on his location, a couple of locations for that matter, trying to find him, bring him to the you and hcr, and to raise an international protection claim under the rescue convention. it was that that time a decision had to be made where to place mister snowden, for his safety in light of the home and governments passed on lawful conduct.

and you mentioned that the conditions were, were ideal for the i guess advice, and then protection mister i was able to obtain with my refugee clients and it's just not didn't give us very much time. so it's more what resources do have at hand work in the state and say, so the approach, oh, the advice i gave him was no. and you should be staying with your energy community because you raised wreckage, claim atlanta. and she are. and these people have a high propensity to protect others, and they've all been victims of persecution on countries. and this would also be a community ad would be placed in, but the authorities would not think she would be staying with, you know, the refugee community in hong kong. i thought that was the last place. so the

advice that was stay with this community, you'll be safe and you can continue to make decisions on whether you want to stay on kong or whether you going to move on to another jurisdiction. and so i asked a number of clients some if they were comfortable there however, it's just don't stay with them. well along those lines, yes, it did. this is very important because in at least in modern history there's really no precedent for something like this. the, the refugees with whom he was staying, the refugees who took him in, we're just that they were refugees. they weren't chinese nationals. they were, they were certainly not trying to make waves. they were in danger of being deported, but these people jumped in to help. why did they do that?

they don't seem to have had anything to gain. i'm good. that's an interesting question, john. i'm there. other g community in hong kong is discriminated against both institutionally and socially. there are a completely marginalized group. they are prohibited from participating in the normal activities. ready that they're allowed to work, they cannot have a bank account, they cannot receive education. so i'm going to survive in this environment. they've been persecuted now. all countries the success rate for refugee cleanser or follow claims and hong kong. as low as 10.5 percent. oh boy, they all knew that they all knew that it was virtually impossible for them to succeed in mclean. but what was interesting is when i introduced mister snowden to

the clients, the clients. without hesitation, the patient recognized that mister snowman was in the same position. they had them when they had faced persecution in their home countries and, and were compelled to just leave their homes. oh, it was a natural response from them. similar to whistleblower, they all made decisions of conscience recognized a man who was a great risk to his personal safety security. they understood that he had disclosed the greed all eventually to be found illegal conduct by the us government finalize. and they made decisions of conscience to help them step forward. perhaps the most important question is, what was the fall out for them? what happened in the end to the tivo refugees?

did anything positive happen for them after snowden escape from hong kong? when, when, after snowden left the jurisdiction and i want to be chronus and it's just not, wasn't leaving your section to go to russia. he's going to south america. that's right. but after you left, all the currents understood. but it was, you know, important that they main, maintain confidentiality concerning your snowden and their role. and so from 2013 to 2016, that was, the clients did not disclose anything. and it was a difficult time for them because they were living and already they were discriminated against. but a 3rd party in 2015 about that time had disclose the identity or the existence of the refugees in providing shelter and food manager. and all

that disclosure was made, tolliver stone, and we all learned that their role in, you know, helping mr. snowden would be in a hollywood. it was in 2015 before the film came out, the clients all decided that it would be safer for them if they went public. so they'd be in the public spotlight. they felt safer because the alternative to not would be, you know, hiding in the shadows, not identifying themselves for certain stories would be knocking on the doors of all my clients kicking in some doors. and they were afraid. something like that would happen. so they decided to go to the media, and then another thing still came out. september 2009, 616. and the public was aware who they were. it was up that point onward that the hong kong authorities. without hesitation targeted,

all the clients are sought to expedite their refugee cases with a view to reject them. based on procedural technicalities, they denied humanitarian assistance. they were trying to deny their due process rights and they did deny for due process rights. they were arresting witnesses and questioning them about the, the refugees and extraordinarily, the hong kong government allowed sri lankan police officers to enter hong kong to target and hunt down the clients and hong kong in december, 2016 this. this is situation that where the government failed to provide protection to the clients. furthermore, with stories attempted to do was to have me removed from the case their cases

on the police instead of investigating police were investigating my clients and myself. so it was to put it simply the conduct of the government was an abuse. agree jesus and quite frankly, cruel. it was the constant threat removing or deporting the clients back to the street. one of the refugees was from philippines, so that was a constant threat. and so it was a terrible time and it was an example of, you know, we do the weakness of governments and their propensity to, you know, pick on the week. right. well, it's been 9 years since this known revelations. and it took years to get these refugees out of hong kong. can you tell us about their current status and tell us

a little bit about the one that hasn't made it out yet? all right, well 1st and foremost, it was a very, very difficult process to, to secure their, i would say international protection or protection that allowed them to go to adul reseller. very, very difficult. i just want to point out that initially the canadian authorities understood that the, the clients for all at risk and they were risk of being removed. and they understood that they were entering under tremendous distress. shortly after that, the canadian authorities you know, backtracked, and decided that all were not going to quickly process their cases. the refugees can wait in line behind everyone else. right. which was a tour and eric sure,

narrowly cruel. and so with, with a combination of public advocacy and also a number of applications with immigration, canada, and the courts. eventually the canaan authorities screened all the clients but unfortunately, they didn't make a decision all the cases at one time to bring them into canada. early 2019, they decided vanessa rhode island, her daughter's case, accepting them as refugees and to canada. so if you $1019.00 a 1st compliment montreal and re shuttle there, the 2nd family were accepted on a humanitarian compassionate grounds. and i was in 2021. and so they arrived about 2 years a little more than 2 years later. and the last refugee jeep bush mara remains in

hong kong. and he's been there for over 5 and a half years waiting for the outcome of its reputation with canada. we are going to take a short break and will return to talk more about the tivo refugees. stay tuned. ah. 2 ah, ah ah ah ah, ah, a

ah ah, ah, the welcome back to the whistleblowers, i'm john curio who were speaking with robert kibo, a human rights asylum, refugee attorney who has found himself at the center of the ed snowden case for much of the past 9 years, robert, thanks again for joining us. thank you. i want to ask you a few questions from the legal side when you were living and working in hong kong. you worked with you and hcr to protect ed snowden and to ensure that he wasn't

snatched and rendered by the ca or by any other intelligence service. how does one go about projecting a client who is arguably the highest profile and most sought after person in the world? where do you even begin with, with mr. snowdon case, or anyone who is in his position the there was a globe. the global media was descending upon hong kong governments around the world. their interests, or their focus decided upon hong kong in june of 2013. and it was clearly understood that you know mr. snowdon profile and the significance of his disclosures as a war, put him at the grave risk. so 1st and foremost was to remove or quite enough vision would be to remove them from, take them off the radar. allowing the media and following the

media would be in the government. the authorities would simply just put, put mr. no, no risk or any whistleblower in that. in that same position. now in hong kong, it was interesting because mr. snowden couldn't speak of solemn protection from the government. that was impossible because the government only allows asylum seekers to make, to raise claims for protection. if they committed criminal offense or immigration because it was just no, it was locked in hong kong at the time. he couldn't get any protection, but fortunately at that time, but not today, but at that time, the units yours office. what we're screening refugee applicants are applications units yours is considered a separate jurisdiction from hong kong know inside on kong. so the key was to secure international protection for him by having him raises claim,

because that would make it impossible, or mr. snowden, to be deported, removed or even extradited from hong kong and tell us read you cleanser. decided. so that was in any case like that. now i want to be clear on one thing. mr. snowdon made us disclosures in the us. he would not be able to see gravity protection. a person can only see brother, you protection outside their jurisdiction. case like this. it will be on a shower, was key to provide that barrier protection to mr. snow. since returning to canada, you, as we've mentioned, have successfully secured refugee status for half dozen of the people who helped ad snowden in hong kong. i want to know how difficult that was did you experience any, any pushback, either from the canadian authorities or from foreign governments, especially the united states?

as i mentioned earlier, initially the canadian government is communicated, their understanding that but the refugee russia claims with emigration, canada had to be expedited. they had to be process quickly because it was, it was obvious to to any observer that they were at risk in hong kong. and again, the canadians back track a couple months later. and then there were delays and a lot of questions have been raised, you know, what pressures may have been put on the game or is by the us government or other members of the fiber. and i have no doubt there were conversations on, on, on this matter and the processing of these clients claims. now, for example, the canadian government had the ability to bring all the refugees immediately into

canada based on the humanitarian and compassionate routes. and canadian authorities didn't do that. applications for t p temporary resident permits to bring the clients into canada, pending the outcome of the refugee claims that could have been done in the canadian authorities, didn't want to do that. and so clearly there were political, in my view, political considerations affected, i guess the, the delays, the immigration, canada delays and processing these ones, right? and unfortunately with, with the g camara, i mean it is, you know, more than 5 and a half years at the stage, but he's been awaiting an on call for decision and, well well actually i'm just probably before, mister a chief his mental health is deteriorating, significant locally, because he's been in an environment where he's at risk. yes. actually that was my

next question i just pushed kamara is the only person who help stoughton in hong kong who has not yet been able to gain refugee status. i know that you're really not at liberty to speak freely about his case, but could you tell us why after all these years, he is not yet free to join the others in canada. what has held him up for me? i really can't say anything more than what i've said ok probably to date. but just to reiterate, mister, come, i was in the through like an army. and as part of the refugee screening process background checks done on, on the clients and his particular background arrays, certain complexity because he was in the military. so i think that's one aspect but

in, in, in terms of his specific circumstances. and in both like hong kong i all i can say is that it's, it's unfortunate that there have been delays mom because it has done no no good for mr. for edgy and it has only contributed to his deteriorating health. finally, robert, what changes need to be made either in international conventions, treaties or agreements, or changes even in western domestic laws to make it easier for whistleblowers and those who put their lives on the line for whistleblowers to more easily obtain refugee status and begin new lives what should be done? there is some that's a good question and it's a complex issue. there. the,

there's the definition of whistleblower. there's a whistle blowing was about legislation in the u. s. which was under the label. which on its face appears to concern complaints or was one of my employees. but when it comes to whistle blowing, that goes to the core of corruption, illegal criminal, or re just conduct of government or, or cooperation. dot dot is a different category of other and mr. snowden case is one example. your role as a list of lower example there's there's a lack of legislation to provide protection for lawyers about how to do it. that's right. and the one thing, the one thing i'd like to point out, which is very important, is that for whistle blowing,

level ok, exposing, you know, the more serious agree just or conduct of a government or, or an organization is thought the whistleblower invariably will have to go to a journalist to the media for protection. ok, now that that is well founded in law legal principal, martin shine and former special roberts repertoire on human rights and counter terrorism. pointed out like mr. snowdon, there was no avenue for him to whistle blow internal to the us government. and in that situation, he had to go to really, he was consulting. he made a decision of conscience. so his was allowing was considered a lawful under us legislation. but if he had not done so,

ah, the public would never have been aware or never were never aware of the day a full extent. oh yes, government's unlawful conduct. we're going to leave it there. robert tuba, thanks for joining us. and thanks to our viewers for joining us for this episode of the whistle blowers remember, martin luther king told us that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but almost 2000 years earlier. seneca, the elders said that it is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen. that's the common right of humanity. that's what the tivo refugees did. and the world is a better place because of it. i'm john kerry, aka and you've been watching the whistleblowers. we'll see you next time. 2 ah,

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