mccolan doesn't understand that michael thinks that there can be such a thing as european autonomy. he believe all he occasionally, as you said in your question, p t occasionally says that. but actually there are contradictions in terms. and we saw this, for instance, when he went to china because he took rosena from the line with him that was supposed to show that he was coming as a representative representative of europe. but between him and noah from the lion, they're a very substantial differences. she is much more atlanta assist, i mean, he's pretty, atlanta says, but she's even more so. so what him taking her to china showed was that europe reduces its own autonomy by trying to be a permanent alliance because everybody pulls in different directions. and the result is the lowest common denominator. and in addition to the fact of course, that as we all know, the european project, including the military dimension of it, is entirely an american creation and entirely under the control of the american. so

these are just words and i've, i've used this quotation once before on this program, but i, i, i think one can repeat myself every, every other year or so. the problem got macaroni is the same as a de gardener. deep down, he's very superficial. yeah. laugh on for, oh, i'll alfred you know, i mean, and, and trying to, you know, it in most of the world are talking about multi polarity, the rise of the global south, the global majority. and it seems like the french president and others like him, are relying upon old tropes that really don't make any sense anymore. and nobody really takes and he's is take seriously no more. for example, nato is expanded, nato is more powerful. oh no, i think it just made washington more powerful. not the alliance per se. so i mean, they all do. they are all chasing the wrong rabbits down the wrong rabbit hole. alfred. if there are to be more, i don't, i absolutely agree with john. now i'd like to see the analysis, dr. cochran,

but as the case may be from my perspective, as a former un staffer, and as a former rapport church, it is quite clear that the europeans live in their bubble. we are actually a small clique, the europeans and the americans. the global majority is against us and we are actually isolating ourselves even further. is not just mike wrong. and his while, you know, indeed cost jury in china. i think that the g 7 meeting now of the foreign ministers is actually hallmark all how isolated, basically we in the west are be savvy, the rest of the world, the salary, the belt and road initiative. these are the, the fact that most countries in the world have refused to impose sanctions on

russia, etc, etc. so it's a question of perception of reality. but in our analysis of, in our self righteousness, that's a perception of reality is totally distorted. and i don't, i'm not optimistic that is going to change any time soon. i'd like to see the european realize that the united states is not, it's friends. the united states is not an asset. the united states is actually a lie of body. the united states interests and those are the europeans, do not coincide, but again, there is an ally and poorly leak. it does coincide. well, i mean if, if there were any kind of democratic impulse left in europe, we might see a different direction. but i'm not counting on that. you met matthew when one of the thing in alpha was pointing out real things belt road. ok. trade diversifying from the dollar. but the europeans and the americans hack about the ology all the

time. and i can't make any heads or tails at what they're talking. i need a translator. i don't know what they're talking about, and that's why most of the world is turning away ukraine. that's your problem. you made it, you fix it. what do you want from us? oh, and we remember hundreds of years of you telling us what to do, but it didn't work out well for us. ok, i mean how tone deaf can you be, mathew i, what i love in the commentary that we've had so far is the fact that there are, there are pieces that we're touching upon. and i think really back up, for me, i'm not, as i won't say cynical, that meant that's too strong, but when macro dox about strategic autonomy. what amazes me is the fact that i think the united states has always utilized strategic autonomy. if we really break down what strategic autonomy is in real terms, it what the united states doesn't like about micron using that term is the idea that your simply comparing it to use that bubble analogy that was just mentioned. these are power bubbles, right?

these are bubbles of power that the united states controls and now micron would that one phrase strategic autonomy is at least winking at the idea that there could be a chinese power bubble that might serve interests in europe as forcefully or as powerfully as american ones are and that is always infuriated, the americans, the americans are the only ones. and i've always found this fascinating is the fact that they will live ideologically in terms of how they speak before the diplomatic microphones and how they act in quarters of power in other nations. capitals, but in terms of actual real term efforts, they're not, they will always follow what their national interests are, but they don't want other countries to be able to follow those saying, well, i mean, i think, i think, i think maybe in theory, but i mean, john i mean, you know, i don't want to have this turned into my favorite hobby horse, but north stream too. i mean, that's kind of a physical real thing. ok. that's being denied europe. ok. that goes beyond,

you know, double speak one in public, a one in private here. my point is john, here is that the europeans have given up almost all of the leverage. they have to actually have some kind of autonomy. john? well, i think that's because they're afraid. again, i've said this before on your show, they can see what the americans are capable of doing, including to them. and they are afraid that if they were to call the americans out on north stream, that there would be further attacks. so that's the reality of the alliance, sits in fact not an alliance at all. it so it's a mafia system of protection. and i think that that explains the extremely dysfunctional behavior of european politicians. there's no other rational explanation other than that, they are afraid. and you know, they're, that, that's what makes all the talk of autonomy, completely bogus. sits there that the talk of autonomy and mac homes mouth on

michael's lips is simply intended to convince a largely skeptical french audience of the continuing usefulness of the european union. and to pretend that somehow france can protect herself as a world power within that framework. in reality, of course, even those old dreams from the 19 fifties and sixties are unraveling. or we're seeing an incredible geopolitical shift within europe. thanks to american support from germany to poland. poland is now a main ally of the united states in europe. poland is the gas hub because it opened its norwegian pipeline the day after the north stream too was blown up by the americans. poland once to recreate and indeed has in the form of some structures recreated a sort of for into maria, a sort of polish lithuanian commonwealth, a sort of glassy against russia. poland has presented

a 1.6 trillion bill for the 2nd world war to germany. and so on and so on. and in that context, a france is totally marginalized as a germany for that matter. so all this is simply intended to occur. oh, a increasingly skeptical french public opinion, back into some support for the european project, which as everybody knows, is itself completely bogus. yeah. well, alfred, you know, it's interesting about what you can say and what you can't say. okay. and there are plenty of people that would like to see more french autonomy, european autonomy, and i like the distinction that john has made here. but there's a lot of other people in the elite that say, hey, we're pretty high in the pecking order in the empire. if things are going great for us, and i don't need a batter bako, she's pretty genuine. great in this paradigm. i mean this, this for me is one of the things that i want to talk about in the 2nd half of the program is that so much of this is elite and ideologically driven, alfred before we go to the break, go ahead. yeah. democracy. if you ask the frank people

who have the german people there will tell you, they don't want that and they will tell you they want negotiation. they don't want to send more weapons to ukraine. notwithstanding. what do my grade in linmore goal? if you go all or in, know the frankfurt algamite, a title i speak with people real people. and i don't find anyone who's excited about sending more weapons on to ukraine or about joining the campaign against china and getting, getting up on the one china policy. that's all extremely dangerous. and the europeans have to stay away from the sky one niandra. i would propose referenda asked the co, i'm afraid, alfred, no doubt. you know, alfred, there's too much democracy in them as it is too dangerous for democracy. that's why

when the newest members of nato don't have referenda, no, no, no, because it's too dangerous here. gentlemen. i have to jump in here. we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on strategic autonomy stay with our team. ah, ah, ah, 3 with water is thrown in. the old on the snow falls, a bottle stuck on this comes with the last dance, her fidela dealers. we flung from kaiser. ours from them to lower the do it in b. c, you're training a good gift away in the pals teacher skills on the edge on the brown asia or was to love it. i'm done with this in a little bolcom in the crucial chest middle school. that was all seniors with the

modem is not a good p t d still not off with what they need to work with when you go see, show the missed they meet in the middle south and you can give us history. but it is a battle certainly don't see this material, but in the stone, even in the so clay unit should update those slide l b. you still owe me. it doesn't help with me. she go, she returns attention. ah, yes, please. in your top there. luminous clarity, answer to it almost has emotional specially to renew with lisa. there's other things you need to look. are you doing piecemeal? mm

ah. oh, a ah a ah ah, during the 2nd well, when nazi occupied, poland, virginia was a farming region today is part of ukraine. between 1943 and 945 members of the ukrainian insurgent army led by stepan. bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly horrific and

brutal villages were burned and property looted. valinda massa is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. my al ukrainian politicians, still reluctant to talk about these events, how to modern day ukraine and poland view this tragedy of the past. and why does the memory of valeria stewart divide people ah, welcome actor cross sac where all things are considered aren't peter labelle tremendous . we're discussing strategic autonomy okay, let's go back to matthew in, in washington, matthew, before we started our recording here, i was talking privately with a, with john and my kind of lamented that i, that i myself and i think john included, or maybe all of us are forced to talk about politics when most of us would love to

talk about culture and society. and that's how i kind of look at these put these e leads here because they have cultural affinities, social affinities. when you listen to for european, i'm a foreign minister is traveling, they talk about ideas, they talk about what kind of society they want and be the creating the heat, new human condition. they don't really talk about what's good for italy are good for him. netherlands, good for france, good for germany. they talk about themselves. they talk about their elite and their elite ideas, which of course are superior to the people that are bad, that they'd vote for them. go ahead, matthew. well, i think that's very true, but i also think that sometimes what's missed, especially in terms of the narrative that gets pushed in the united states, is that there's also a hierarchy within the elite itself. yep. and the americans push very hard to make sure everyone is very clear, that at the top of that elite hierarchy is the american elite, tal g for lack of

a better term. and they want to make people understand. and that's why i come from a national security intelligence background. so i don't really look at it ideation only one that when micro talks about strategic autonomy, i see it much more from the practical reality of saying, we're not comfortable with how the united states has largely basically through this conflict and ukraine. told all of europe, where else are you going to go? you have us and you have no one else. there is no other legitimate idea. there is no other legitimate alliance that you can rely on. and therefore, he's manipulating the phrase almost to me in a terminal, almost making it de facto like classical neutrality, which is i'm going to pursue our interest wherever they may lead us and, and i'm not automatically aligning with you on every single issue just because you're at the top of that ali pyramid, that's what i think what infuriates the american soma. and well, john, that's kind of like from the superior soprano as you know, you had a bi administration say as a kind of a nice presidential policy out there in france. you know, would be

a pity if something happened to it. i mean, this is, this is exactly what it is. i do agree with matthew that is very high article. everything is high article ok everything. and, but i mean, but without what i find fascinating and deplorable is that there are so many people that will bow down to this hierarchy and think it's a good gig for them. i mean, just because your prime minister of a european country, i thought the end of your career, not just the beginning. okay. i mean, it's a, it's all a towards a griff. okay. and you get away with it by siding with, you know, the right side of history, the great americans, you know, a liberalism, they have all of these covers for their own self interest because dealing with the nitty gritty of fixing rhodes and having water quality. that's boring. john, well again, i think the concept of ideology that you introduced in your questions earlier is very important. you know, 20 years after the end of the,

after the invasion of iraq. it seems as if george w bush is we're still in power. you're either with us or against us, you know, there's no, there's no concept anymore in the western mind set for negotiation for diplomacy, for compromise. instead, all lee strategic documents, for instance, of nato itself, are indeed formulated in highly ideological terms. there's a lot of stuff about values. there's a lot of stuff authoritarian regimes which somehow threaten us and so on. and a michael, of course, made his remark partly because he wants to sell a lot of our buses to china. and so he was trying to suck up chinese opinion, or which is, which is ultimately fair enough. but the fact is that he himself has gone far too far down the ideological writ, able to speak about, or any kind of strategic autonomy with any, any conviction. and, you know, you said you wanted to talk about society and culture instead of talking about politics. but one of the depressing things about life i would say in europe to day

is that there aren't any cultural or social spheres left anymore, which are independent of politics. you know, let him is. lensky speaks at the vienna venice, be an hourly. he speaks at the cannes film festival. he speaks at the frankfurt book for though there are, there are no, he speaks at the glastonbury festival. there are no cultural events left where politics does not intervene, or for that matter where l g b, t writes, or whatever intervene as well. there are no more autonomous fields left and therefore we are in europe, in a situation very similar to that which existed in the soviet union. yeah. the communism where everything had to be brought back to marxism. in europe today, everything has to be brought back to, to postmodernism and to the associated values and back or of course himself is adapt pure product of that, of that, of that, of that phenomenon. yeah, i'm not worried about zalinski appearing and all those venues. i'm sure he is. his

checks are cashed to all across europe without a problem. okay. member chang. i check remember his nickname was cash. my check that we have to find a ukrainian version cash. my check. i'll alfred. you know, we're very pessimistic here right now because i don't see any tools or any ideas or a cadre they can actually shake things up. i, it really seems that europe is straight jacketed itself to washington. that's not a bad i would take, i mean, because if you look at the middle east, it but read china's initiatives. i mean pieces breaking out all over the place and the americans have no control over apparently at all. i, i see which arc of history i would like to be on. i'd like to be on the site a piece, alfred. well, of course, but it's amazing that all our pain packs really, really came. so the heritage foundation, they had not realized that we are so i cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and that the belton road initiative and everything else the passing of over.

now the main problem that i see in the west, and that includes switzerland where i lay, is the main stream media. the main very media is brainwashing is indoctrination. and 2 books come to my grade, new world of out of those. hopefully out of course $984.00 on george orwell. we live in that this dopey and i don't see any awakening right now. god, there is something called consortium news and counter punch and prove out. and the real news network on the intercept time, god, there's still sputnik and r, p and v g, d, n, and asia times and the mobile times, et cetera. but that is for us, we'll actually go out our way to get the information and get different narratives

and try to evaluate what the masses they go during the elevation on their watch, cnn. and that's all they get. and that is the problem. if you have a democracy where the entire population has been indoctrinated into believing as a matter of faith, that we are the good guys believing that we have the right to do what we're doing. i mean, we have locked ourselves into this situation, which is very difficult to get out. yes, yes, absolutely. and pending themselves into a corner, matthew, i want to take advantage of your past professionalism here. can you comment if you want on these document weeks? what do you think of it? because it's very interesting how some are using it to, to shift at narratives change perspectives on the crane and other things like that . and i've talked to a lot of people in the intelligence community, mostly retired,

and most that were just kind of scratch their heads over. what do you think of it? this is obviously from, from my line of work. this is sort of occupying the front end of the desk at the moment. it's plastered everywhere within the united states and people are fascinated by it. there are practical aspects that probably go beyond what we're talking about or maybe seem small potatoes in the bigger discussions we're having right here. but i think it is starting to show some regular quote unquote regular citizens in america. that there is definitely a problem in the states in terms of the, the categorization of clearances. we have far too many people that get clearances, security clearances within our, within our governmental military intelligence communities. and we're seeing because of who did the leaks and why that person's well. ok, matt. matthew, let me let me jump to the chase here. how did this kid get these kinds of documents that? well, that's the question and and are they real ok?

i think they are real okay. because people too often want to take the hollywood version. they get fed a lot in terms of the intelligence community. we have 1400000 people with security clearances in the united states. and not all of them are senior officials with decades of experience. we have too many documents that get classified in order to process them. we end up with people like the individual that did the leaking with access to documents that now the thing i want to push back on is the idea of just how powerful were these documents that he actually leaked onto his game or site. right? i mean, there were some embarrassing things that to be sure, but the idea that, well, i don't know if taiwan is ready for a chinese incursion militarily, or if we don't keep doing what we're doing and ukraine, ukraine could end up facing real star. matthew, you bring up a very secret, you bring up a very interesting point because they could discussions i've had with people is

that if you really put your nose to the grindstone and look at all the way, for example, like that, none of these documents say anything particularly new. ok, but they're being presented in some kind of splash. ok. what kind of shift gears almost running out of time here. but john, what is the feeling in france? i mean, we had this pension reform here. i suppose that you know, across did pull lead to gall and dis, you had got it done his own way here. what kinds of pressures are people? what kind of pressures are people feeling? is this conflict in ukraine continues when the prospects are very bleak for nato. we, irrespective of all the propaganda that people are being fed, 45 seconds to my friend. well, i'm afraid, i think her france is no different from anywhere else. i think there is a mass media problem that alva alfred design mentioned. and while there may be a higher degree of understanding for russia and france than in other countries, i don't think france is substantially different. the worst predictions have not

come true. i have to say that haven't been power cuts in france. they haven't been, there hasn't been serious hardship just as the worst put a predictions happen. come through, come true for rush or either. right. so it way it's off the news, and people instead are worried about, you know, pension reform, as you say, the ukraine thing is not really at the top of the gender at the moment. it's dragging on and i think that's probably part of russia's own strategy. i think russia knows that they will be wor, fatigue. yeah, pretty good if not already all of the nay sayers that have had over the last 15 months. i've said the same thing here. there. the different size have different agendas and timeframes who's got the cox and who's got the time or a gentleman that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in paris, switzerland, and in washington. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c, an exam, remember, cross stuck rules ah

ah ah, at the end of the 18th century, britain began the illegal opium trade in china. this har, drug causing addiction and literally destroying the human body, became a gold mine for business men from the foggy elvia. however, the ruling chinese gin dynasty tried to resist and to stop the illegal trade, which provoked the wrath of the london business community. in 1840 without a declaration of war, the english fleet began to seize and plunder chinese coastal fords. the barley armed and morally drained chinese army, was unable to provide adequate resistance. the ging empire was forced to hand hong

kong over to england and opened his sports for trading the lethal goods in 1856, france and the united states joined in the robbery of china. the anglo french troops defeated the chinese occupied beijing, and committed an unprecedented robbery. destroyed and blundered the wealth of the un mean you and palace. the defeat of the jing dynasty in the do opium wars lead to the transformation of the celestial empire into a semi colony of european states and started its age of humiliation. and the sale of opium took on colossal proportions and led to the horrible deaths of millions of ordinary chinese. ah, i look forward to talking to you. oh, that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human

beings, except where such order is a conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to great trust rather than fear a barrier shop with artificial intelligence. real seminar, the robot most protects its own existence with existence. no man was supposed to put, forming in. so you know, to vehicle car yet no blessed sauce. that will be the she do so do you know? i don't think you are, but that's a group that was on the in the one on the desktop or joseph. this alex is low to me and i

was unable to be almost in my unit stuff that you're going to continue listening or yes. so it's just purely you, me serious and so probably just for us dollars on a box here which you put in a sickly in a little boys. even lynch says, going out of the sky, jenna, assistant images, as i say on the reason i ask you is, i'm sure political mon, i southern to us on the saw, the english american lost so much, you know, much missing a saw to see should be, is a, you know, the run up the year after they were not on

a promise she's planning to run away. nope. me the russians. i'm case reasons please of the tea. often times you say, anita his comments about russia stance on these playing on here are his thoughts about media freedoms and the pay the sales of ship. it is becoming more and more serious. the one sided view that this being supported by you k is little bit in many ways and people should know to make your view in order to make their own judgment. the european commission says china is using divide and conquer tactics in its approach to the west. she makes those comments not even 2 weeks after visiting beijing. mexico pushes back.