ah ah. 2 most people all around the world who follow the news. remember the events surrounding the revelations made by whistleblower, edward snowden, snowden, a former employee of the cia and later a contractor for an essay released hundreds of thousands of pages of information to weekly leaks that proved the american government was spying on its own citizens in violation of the law, among other things, snowden, at the time of his revelations,

was living in hawaii. he made his way to hong kong and then to moscow on his way to ecuador. but while he was in moscow, then u. s. secretary of state, john kerry revoked his us passport and stranded him. there snowden has since become a russian citizen. the story that is not often told, though, is where snowden hid and with whom while he was in heim, the entire world was looking for him, including several of the world's foremost intelligence services. why couldn't they find him? how did he remain free and who helped him get onto a plane to moscow? we'll talk about that and more with our next guest. robert tivo is a canadian, national, and an attorney focusing on constitutional and criminal law and human rights license to practice law and hong kong. he received advanced training in asylum and refugee law from a former united nation special rapid tour on torture. in 2013,

he helped ed snowden and he began representing the refugees who took snowden into their home in hong kong. they're now known as the tivo refugees, and robert keybo remains an important player in the snowden story. robert, welcome to the show. we're happy to have you. thank you very much. john's, my pleasure to euro today on your show. thank you. let's. let's begin at the beginning, this seems like one of those situations where you and the tb refugees had just happened to be in the right place. at the right time when ed snowden made his revelations and then went on the run. what happened? how did this all begin? well, keeping the narrative, as simple as i can. add snowden had arrived in hong kong in about mid may, 2013. and towards the end of that much. and in early june,

the guardian had started publishing stories by based on information from a former cia agent. and this caught the attention of authorities and public these stories galvanized, you know, public address in particular because glen greenwald, who has had written stories, talked about the prison program and the global electronic master valence. that the serv us was conducting and, and the fact that the other members of the 5 ice group should be canada united kingdom, australia, new zealand, were participating in the us. on june 9th, mr. snowden decided to permit more, appoint tristan greenwell, to publish your air and interview he did with them, where you identified himself and explained his his role. and the reasons why he

was stepping forward as a whistleblower to inform the public that was in the early hours in june 10th. 2013. and i received a call very early that morning. and mr. snowden needed a lawyer. he needed help. it was time thought i needed immediate access to mr. snowden. i was cognizant, but mr. snowden was grave risk in hong kong. he would be wanted by the u. s. government, and he would be a target of other governments and hong kong history. in particular, one example is a semi saudi case, and for where the organ authorities assist you with government to apprehend, or i would not say unlawfully detain libya, national. his wife and children were denied them their due process rights and

access unix yard and the u. s. and u. k, put this family on a, on a rendition flight to libya, where he was going to strongly were detained. and he was tortured. so when snowden had exposed himself to the public, this was a real possibility that no, he could be extraordinary wrote rendition he could be a victim of the force disappearance, or it can be killed. so i've got time on the 1st priority was to remove him from the hotel. he was out because the media were converging on his location. a couple of the locations for that matter. trying to find him, bring him to you and hcr, and to raise an international protection claim under the rescue convention. it was at that time a decision had to be made where to place mister snowden, for his safety in light of the home and governments passed on lawful conduct.

and you, you mentioned that the conditions were, were ideal for the turbo, i guess, advice. and then protection system was able to obtain with my refugee clients this is not, didn't give us very much time. so it's more what resources do we haven't had work in the state and say, so the approach, oh, the advice i gave him was no. and you should be staying with your energy community because you raised wreckage, claim atlanta. and she are. and these people have a high propensity to protect others, and they've all been victims of persecution on countries. and this would also be a community and would be placed in, but the authorities would not think she would be staying with, you know,

the refugee community in hong kong. i found that that was the last place. so the advice that was stay with this community, you'll be safe and you can continue to make decisions on whether you want to stand on or whether you going to move on to another jurisdiction. and so i asked a number of clients some if they were comfortable there, however, it's just don't stay with them. well, and i was my, this is, this is very important because in at least in modern history there's really no precedent for something like this. the, the refugees with whom he was staying, the refugees who took him in, we're just that they were refugees. they weren't chinese nationals. they were, they were certainly not trying to make waves. they were in danger of being deported, but these people jumped in to help. why did they do that?

they don't seem to have had anything to gain. i'm good. that's an interesting question, john. i'm there. other g community in hong kong is discriminated against both institutionally and socially. there are a completely marginalized group. they are prohibited from participating in the normal activities. you know that they're not allowed to work. they cannot have a bank account, they cannot receive education. so going to survive in this environment. they've been persecuted now. own countries, the success rate for refugee cleanser or follow claims. and hong kong is low asked and point 5 percent. oh boy, they knew that they all knew that it was virtually impossible for them to succeed

in mclean. but what was interesting is when i introduced mister snowden to the clients, the clients. without hesitation, the patient recognized that mister snowman was in the same position. they had them when they had faced persecution in their home countries and, and were compelled to, to flee their homes. and so it was a natural response from them. similar to whistleblower, they all made decisions of conscience recognized a man who was a great risk to his personal safety security. they understood that he had disclosed the greed all eventually to be found illegal conduct by the us government to finalize. and they made decisions of conscience to help them step forward. perhaps the most important question is, what was the fall out for them?

what happened in the end to the refugees? did anything positive happen for them after snowden escape from hong kong? and when, when, after snowden left, the jurisdiction and i want to be clearness, just not in wasn't even if you're still going to go to russia. he's going right to south america. that's right. but often after you laughed all the clients understood that it was you know important, but they main maintain confidentiality concerning mr. snowdon and their role. and so from 2013 to 2016, that was, the clients did not disclose anything now. and it was a difficult time for them because they were living and i just already there were discriminated against. but a 3rd party in 2015 about that time had disclose the identities or the

existence of the refugees and in providing shelter, food, vanity. and was for snowden on that disclosures made taller stone. and we all learned that their role in, you know, helping mr. snowden would be in hollywood. mm hm. and it was in 2016. before the film came out, the clients all decided that it would be safer for them if they went public. so they'd be in the public spotlight, they felt safer because the alternative to not would be, you know, hiding in the shadows, not identifying themselves. and for certain, the authorities would be knocking on the doors of all my clients kicking in some doors. and they were afraid something like that would happen. so they decided to go to the media. and then another thing still came out september 2009, 616. and the public was aware who they were. it was up that point onwards

that the hong kong authorities, without hesitation targeted all the clients, sought to expedite their refugee cases with a view to reject them based on procedural technicalities. they denied humanitarian assistance. they were trying to deny their due process rights. and when they did denied for due process rights, they were arresting witnesses and questioning them about the, the refugees and extraordinarily, the hong government allowed sri lankan police officers to enter hong kong to target and hunt down the client's calling in december 2016. this, this situation that where the government failed to provide protection to the clients. furthermore,

with already attempted to do was to have me removed from the case their cases on the police instead of investigating police were investigating my clients and myself . so it was to put it simply to conduct the government was an abuse. agree jesus and quite frankly, cruel. it was the constant threat removing or deporting the client, dr lanka, one of the refugees was from philippines. so that was a constant threat. and so it was a terrible time, and it was an example of, you know, the weekend, the weakness of governments and their propensity to, you know, pick on the week. right. well, it's been 9 years since this known revelations. and it took years to get these

refugees out of hong kong. can you tell us about their current status and tell us a little bit about the one that hasn't made it out yet? all right, well, 1st and foremost, it was a very, very difficult process to, to secure their, i would say international protection or protection that allowed them to go to, to, so that'll resettling counted very, very difficult. i just want to point out that initially the canadian authorities understood that the, the clients for all at risk and they were risk of being removed, afforded. and they understood that they were instrument under tremendous distress. in shortly after that, the canadian authorities backtracked and decided that all were not going to quickly process their cases. the refugees can wait in line behind every one

else, right, which was an ordinary tro, narrowly cool. and so with, with a combination of public advocacy and also a number of applications with immigration, canada, and through the courts eventually became in authorities, screened all the clients. but unfortunately, they didn't make a decision on all the cases at one time to bring them into canada at one time. and i, early 2019, they decided vanessa rodella and her daughter's case, accepting them as refugees and to canada. so she doesn't act in the 1st round, came to montreal and re shuttle there. the 2nd family were accepted on a humana chain. compassionate grounds. and i was in 2021. and they arrived about

2 years a little more than 2 years later. and the last refugee jeep bush for camara, remains in hong kong. and he's been there for over 5 and a half years waiting for the outcome of its reputation with canada. we are going to take a short break and will return to talk more about the tea bo refugees stay tuned. ah. 2 ah, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, they were forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer strategic or autonomy

i rick sanchez and i'm here to plead with you. whatever you do, you do not watch my your show seriously. why watch something that's so different. my little opinions that you won't get anywhere else, work of it. please do have the state department, the c i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. i changed and whatever you do, don't watch my show stay mainstream because i'm probably gonna make you uncomfortable. my show is called direct impact, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way thing. oh, welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry. i'll go. we're speaking with robert t bow a human rights asylum and refugee attorney who has found himself at the center of

the. busy snowdon case for much of the past 9 years. robert, thanks again for joining us. thank you. i want to ask you a few questions from the legal side when you were living and working in hong kong. you worked with you and hcr to protect ed snowden and to ensure that he wasn't snatched and rendered by the cia or by any other intelligence service. how does one go about projecting a client who is arguably the highest profile and most sought after person in the world? where do you even begin a with, with mr. snowdon case, or anyone who was in his position on the there was a the globe, the global media was descending upon on call governments around the world. their interests are, their focus descended upon hong kong in general to their team. and it was clearly understood that you know mr. snowden profile and the significance of his

disclosures as a whistleblower, put him at the grave wrist. so 1st and foremost was to remove or quite enough vision would be to remove them from, take them off the radar, allowing the media and following the media would be the government. the authorities would simply just put, put mr. no, no risk or any whistleblower in that same position. now in hong kong, it was interesting because mr. snowden couldn't speak a solemn protection from the government. that was impossible because the government only allows asylum seekers to make, to raise claims for protection. if they commit a criminal offense or immigration because we just know it was lawfully in hong kong at the time, he couldn't get any protection. but fortunately at that time, but not today, but at that time, the unit shars office was screening refugee applicants are applications.

the units yards is considered a separate jurisdiction from hong kong know inside on kong. so the key was to secure international protection for him by were having some raises claim. because that would make it impossible. or mr. snowden, to be deported, removed, or even extradited from hong kong and tell us, right, you claims were decided. so that was in any case like that. now i want to be clear on one thing, mister snowden made us disclosures in us. he would not be able to see gravity protection. a person can only see brother protection outside their jurisdiction. case like this. it will be when a shower was key to provide that barrier rejection to mr. snow. since returning to canada, you, as we've mentioned, have successfully secured refugee status for half dozen of the people who helped ad

snowden in hong kong. i want to know how difficult that was did you experience any, any pushback, either from the canadian authorities or from foreign governments, especially the united states. as i mentioned earlier, initially the canadian government and communicated their understanding the but the refugee russia claims with immigration, canada had to be expedited. and to be process quickly because it was, it was obvious to, to any observer that they were at risk and and again, the coatings of backtrack a couple months later. and then there were delays and a lot of questions have been raised, you know, what pressures may have been put on the team or is by the us government or other members of the fiber. and i have no doubt there were conversations on, on,

on this matter and the processing of these clients claims. now, for example, the canadian government had the ability to bring all the refugees immediately into canada based on the humanitarian and compassionate routes. canadian authorities didn't do that. applications for g r p temporary resident permits to bring the clients in to canada, pending the outcome of the refugee claims that could have been done in the canadian authorities, didn't want to do that. and so clearly there were political, in my view, political considerations affected, i guess the, the delays, the immigration, canada delays and processing these plans, right. and unfortunately with, with just push camara. i mean, it is, you know, more than 5 and a half years at the stage that he's been waiting on call for decision and, well,

well, actually i'm thinking this probably before on mister a chief, his mental health is deteriorating significant, simply because he's been in an environment where he's at risk. yes. actually, that was my next question i just pushed camara is the only person who helped snowden in hong kong who has not yet been able to gain refugee status. i know that you're really not at liberty to speak freely about his case, but could you tell us why after all these years, he is not yet free to join the others in canada. what has held him up for? i really can't say anything more than what i've said ok probably to date. but just to reiterate, mister, come, i was in the through like an army and as part of the refugee screening process, background checks done on,

on the clients. and his particular background arrays, certain complexity because he was in the military. so i think that's one aspect. but in, in, in terms of his specific circumstances and in both like in hong kong, i all i can say is that it's, it's unfortunate that there have been delays. the mom has done no, no good for mr. for reggie and it has only contributed to his deteriorating how finally, robert, what changes need to be made either in international conventions, treaties or agreements or changes even in western domestic laws to make it easier for whistleblowers and those who put their lives on the line for whistleblowers to more easily obtain refugee status and begin new lives. what should be done?

there is some that's a good question and it's a complex issue there. the, there's the definition of whistleblower. there's a whistle blowing with legislation in the u. s, which was under the label carbon, which on its face appears to concern complaints or was one of my employees. but when it comes to whistle blowing, that goes to the core of corruption, illegal criminal, or re just conduct of government or, or cooperation. dot down is a different category of other and mr. snowdon case is one example your role as a list of lower example there's there's

a lack of legislation to provide protection for listen, lawyers about category. that's right. and the one thing, the one thing i'd like to point out, which is very important, is that for whistle blowing, level ok, exposing, you know, the more serious the grades or conduct of a government or, or organization is thought the whistleblower invariably will have to go to a journalist to the media for protection. ok, now that is well founded in law legal, principal, martin shine and former special roberts repertoire on human rights and counter terrorism. pointed out that like mr. snowdon, there was no avenue for him to whistle blow internal to the us government.

and in that situation, he had to go to really he was compelled to go to media. he made a decision of conscience. so his was allowing was considered a law firm under us legislation. but if he had not done so ah, the public would never have been aware or never were never aware of the day a full extent. oh yes, government's unlawful conduct. we're gonna leave it there. robert tuba, thanks for joining us, and thanks to our viewers for joining us for this episode of the whistle blowers remember, martin luther king told us that injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere, but almost 2000 years earlier. seneca, the elders said that it is a denial of justice not to stretch out a helping hand to the fallen. that's the common right of humanity. that's what the tivo refugees did, and the world is a better place because of it. i'm john curiosity and you've been watching the whistleblowers. we'll see you next time.

2 2 mom, when i was shooting wrong, when i just don't hold an engagement, it was from clean arctic travel to hi, stay on the lowest. i've looked in what he feel like with her a message from a serial number of simulated membership, one year of cutlery. boom, sir, no boys don't bring middle empties chico me of that. of the optic pioneers main objective was to explore and conquer these harsh lands. they had no time to think about waste management now and legacy could remain for centuries. get my choice of so on movies in latin, it's a pretty at the course you system was going to pull on your scope. i don't really tune with dealership issue

ah, a fighting radios for 852 dan.