holes in valeria, in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. yamashita is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes and polish crowns of modern day ukraine and poland view. this tragedy of the past. oh ah, hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are cans, importance, and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but after all, europe is no longer strategic flora thomas cross sucking should expert on international order in paris. we have john laughlin. he is a university like information about we state university high gentleman cross sack rose in effect that means on this program. as long as the french president, look at the fight, it's way out of him. sometimes he gets de gaulle curious de says something different. i think that is really emblematic in a minute, my call and a child to go live. there were so told me to go talk about french will tell me if

he option by definition was incompatible with autonomy on the me. he believe all he occasionally, as you said in your question, p t. occasionally he went to china because he took rosena from the line with him. that was supporting him. mendoza from the lion. there are very substantial differences. him taking her to the china showed, was that in different directions and the result is the lowest common denominator, including the military dimension of it is entirely an american korea quotation once before on this program. but i, i think one can repeat mike official. yeah. laugh on for o, alfred, you know, i mean the rise of the global south, the global majority. and it seems like the for takes denise is take seriously and more. for example, nato is exp, per se. so i mean, they are all they are all chasing the wrong. agree with john. now i'd like to see on a former you when staffer and as a former rapport church, it is make the europeans and the americans,

the global. my daughter is not just my grown, and his well, you know, is actually refused to impose sanctions on russia, etc, etc. so it's a question of perception of reality. but in our analysis are self righteousness that's for exception of reality is totally distorted. and i don't, i'm not optimistic that is going to change any time soon. i'd like to see the europeans realized that the united states is not. it's friend. the united states is not an asset. the united states is actually a liability. the united states interest, and those are the rpms, do not coincide, but again, there is an ally and bullying leak. it does go inside. well, i mean if, if there were any kind of democratic impulse left in europe, we might see a different direction. but i'm not counting on that here. matthew,

one of the thing you alper is pointing out real things. belts, road ok, trade diversifying from the dollar. but the europeans and the americans talk about ideology all the time. and i can't make any head details of what they're talking. i needed translator. i don't know what they're talking about and that's why most of the world is turning away ukraine. that's your problem. you made it, you fix it. what do you want from us? oh, and we remember hundreds of years of you telling us what to do, but it didn't work out well for us. ok, i mean how tone deaf can you be? mathew? i would, i love the commentary that we've had so far as the fact that there are, there are pieces that we're touching upon. and i think really back up for me, i'm not as i won't say cynical, that meant that's too strong. but when macro talks about strategic autonomy, what amazes me is the fact that i think the united states has always utilized strategic autonomy. if we really break down what strategic autonomy is in real

terms, it what the united states doesn't like about micron using that term is the idea that your simply comparing it to use that bubble analogy that was just mentioned. these are power bubbles, right? these are bubbles of power that the united states controls and now micron would that one phrase strategic autonomy is at least winking at the idea that there could be a chinese power bubble that might serve interests in europe as forcefully or as powerfully as american ones are and, and that is always infuriated, the americans, the americans are the only ones. and i've always found this fascinating is the fact that they will live ideologically in terms of how they speak before the diplomatic microphones and how they act in quarters of power in other nations. capitals, but in terms of actual real term efforts, they're not, they will always follow what their national interests are, but they don't want other countries to be able to follow the same. well, i mean,

i think, i think, i think maybe in theory, but, i mean, john, i mean, you know, i don't want to have this turned into my favorite hobby horse, but north stream too. i mean, that's kind of a physical real thing. ok. that's being denied europe. ok, that goes beyond you know, double speak one in public, a one in private here. my point is john, here is that the europeans have given up almost all of the leverage. they have to actually have some kind of autonomy. john? well, i think that's because they're afraid. again, i've said this before on your show, they can see what the americans are capable of doing, including to them. and they are afraid that if they were to call the americans out on north stream, that there would be further attacks. so that's the reality of the alliance. it's in fact not an alliance at all. it, so it's a mafia system of protection. and i think that that explains the extremely dysfunctional behavior of european politicians. there's no other rational

explanation other than that they are afraid. and you know, they're, that, that's what makes all talk of autonomy. completely bogus, sits the talk of autonomy and michael's mouth on michael's lips. is simply intended to convince the largely skeptical french audience of the continuing usefulness of the european union and to pretend that somehow france can protect herself as a world power within that framework. in reality, of course, even those old dreams from the 19 fifties and sixties are unraveling. a we're seeing an incredible geopolitical shift within europe. thanks to american support from germany to poland. poland is now a main ally of the united states in europe. poland is the gas harb because it opened its norwegian pipeline the day after the north stream, too was blown up by the americans. poland once to recreate,

and indeed has in the form of some structures recreated a sort of fir into maria, a sort of polish lithuanian commonwealth, a sort of glassy against russia. poland has presented a 1.6 trillion bill for the 2nd world war to germany. and so on and so on. and in that context of france is totally marginalized as it germany for that matter. so all this is simply intended to curve, oh, a increasingly skeptical french public opinion, back into some support for the european project, which as everybody knows, is itself completely bogus. yeah, well, alfred, you know, it's interesting about what you can say and what you can't say. okay, and there are plenty of people that would like to see more french autonomy, european autonomy, and i, i liked the distinction that john has made here. but there's a lot of other people in the leaks that say, hey, we're pretty high in the pecking order in the empire. if things are going great for us and it will lead a better bako, she's pretty good you in great,

in this paradigm. i mean this, this for me is one of the things that i want to talk about in the 2nd half of the program is that so much of this is elite an ideologically driven alfred. before we go to the break, go ahead. yeah. democracy. if you ask the french people who ask the german people, they will tell you they don't want that. they will tell you they want negotiation. they don't want to send more weapons to ukraine. notwithstanding. what do my grade in linmore goal? if you go all or in, know the frankfurt algamite, a title i speak with people real people. and i don't find anyone who's excited about sending more weapons on to ukraine or about joining the campaign against china and getting, getting up on the one china policy. that's all extremely dangerous. and the europeans have to stay away from this taiwan niandra. i would

propose referenda asked the oh, i'm fred alfred. oh, don't you know alfred. there's too much democracy in the weather is too dangerous for democracy. that's why when the newest members of nato don't have referenda. no, no, no, because it's too dangerous here. gentlemen, i have to jump in here, we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on strategic autonomy staying with our team. ah, ah, for generations people have been coming here to case of odds to get healthy, taking advantage of the mineral waters and the fresh air. today the city is at the forefront of cutting edge research, helping athletes, not by utilizing that in, but by depriving them from it. today we are speaking to the head of the innovation center of the russian, the olympic committee, world renown trainer,

alexander christian name, man, boston city report, palming. im sitting on this. it will vehicle co, yet no blast was hostile. should it be did she did. so do you know, i don't think she'll let us but that's a girl mister, i'm ash a little additional port. joseph. miss charlotte is la cheney on. i who's the bill says that it says yeah, we'll be almost in a month. you may still have good. i'm with animals continue listening. that's going to work with one us, $2.00 a day on a bar to which i you put enough to clean a little boys, even lynch, cisco and out of this if you could. i, jenna. good. but

we'll still see much now does i? and so the saw snow say on if we don't ask for you, they run show political from on. i said i like to a from the saw the english. i met a kid. well, so much so much missing the thought to see go out should be it is a 0 that you last but they will love you. does this is eva yet. no. on a po much she's fun and i was running away. no clue. i welcome back. across that were all things are considered are purely built room and you were discussing strategic autonomy. ah okay, let's go back to matthew in washington. matthew, before we started our recording here, i was talking privately with, with john. and my kind of lamented that i, that i myself and i think john included,

or maybe all of us are forced to talk about politics when most of us would love to talk about culture and society. and that's how i kind of look at these, put these a leads here because they have cultural affinity, social affinities. when you listen to a european on a foreign ministers traveling, they talk about ideas. they talk about what kind of society they want and the creating the new human condition. they don't really talk about what's good for italy are good from netherlands. good for france, good for german, they talk about themselves. they talked about their elite and their elite ideas, which of course are superior to the people that of bad that vote for them. go ahead, matthew. well, i think that's very true, but i also think that sometimes what's missed, especially in terms of the narrative that gets pushed in the united states, is that there is also a hierarchy within the elite itself. yep. and the americans push very hard to make sure everyone is very clear,

that at the top of that elite hierarchy is the american elite, tal g for lack of a better term. and they want to make people understand. and that's why i come from a national security intelligence background. so i don't really look at it ideation only when that when my crone talks about strategic autonomy, i see it much more from the practical reality of saying, we're not comfortable with how the united states has largely basically through this conflict in ukraine, told all of europe where else are you going to go? you have us and you have no one else. there is no other legitimate idea. there is no other legitimate alliance that you can rely on. and therefore, he's manipulating the phrase almost to me in a terminal, almost making it de facto like classical neutrality, which is i'm going to pursue our interest wherever they may lead us in. and i'm not automatically aligning with you on every single issue, just because you're at the top of beverly pyramid. that's what i think what infuriates the american soma. and, well, john, that's kind of like from the soprano as you know,

you had the biden administration say, as kind of a nice presidential policy out there in france. you know, would be a pity if something happened to it. i mean this is, this is exactly what it is. i do agree with matthew, that is very high article. everything is high article, okay, everything. and, but, i mean, but what i, what i find fascinating and deplorable is that there are so many people that will bow down to this hierarchy and think it's a good gig for them. i mean, just because your prime minister of a european country, i thought the end of your career, not just the beginning. okay. i mean, it's a, it's all a towards a griff. okay. and you get away with it by siding with, you know, the right side of history, the great americans, you know, a liberalism, they have all of these covers for their own self interest because dealing with the nitty gritty of fixing roads and having water quality. that's boring. john, well again, i think the concept of ideology that you introduced or in your questions earlier is

very important. you know, 20 years after the end of the, after the invasion of iraq. it seems as if george w bush is we're still in power. you're either with us or against us, you know, there's no, there's no concept anymore in the western mind set for negotiation for diplomacy, for compromise. instead, all lee strategic documents, for instance, of nato itself, are indeed formulated in highly ideological terms. there's a lot of stuff about values. there's a lot of stuff authoritarian regimes which somehow threaten us and so on. and a michael, of course, made his remark partly because he wants to sell a lot of our bosses to china. and so he was trying to stop chinese opinion, or which is which is ultimately fair enough. but the fact is that he himself has gone far too far down the ideological writ, able to speak about, or any kind of strategic autonomy with any, any conviction. and, you know,

you said you wanted to talk about society and culture instead of talking about politics. but one of the depressing things about life i would say in europe to day is that there aren't any cultural or social spheres left anymore, which are independent of politics. you know, let him is. lensky speaks at the vienna venice be anomaly. he speaks at the cannes film festival. he speaks at the frankfurt book for though there are, there are no, he speaks of the class and re festival. there are no cultural events left where politics does not intervene, or for that matter where l g b, t writes, or whatever intervene as well. there are no more autonomous fields left and therefore we are in europe, in a situation very similar to that which existed in the soviet union. yeah. the communism where everything had to be brought back to marxism. in europe today, everything has to be brought back to, to post modernism and to the associated values. and back or of course himself is an app pure, a product of that, of that, of that of that phenomenon. yeah,

i'm not worried about zalinski appearing and all those venues. i'm sure he is his checks or cash to all across europe without a problem. okay. member chang. i shake. remember his nickname was cash. my check that we have to find a ukrainian version cash. my check, i'll alfred, you know, we're very pessimistic here right now because i don't see any tools or any ideas or a cadre they can actually shake things up by a. it really seems that europe has straight jacketed itself to washington. that's not a bad. i would take, i mean, because if you look at the middle east, you but it, but read china's initiatives. i mean piece is breaking out all over the place and the americans have no control over apparently at all. i, i see which arc of history i would like to be on. i'd like to be on the site a piece. alfred. well, of course, but it's amazing that all our think tanks really came. so the heritage foundation now they had not realized that we ourselves,

i cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and that the belgian road initiative and everything else passing over. now the main problem that i see in the west, and that includes switzerland where i lay, is the main stream media. the main story media is brainwashing, is indoctrination. and 2 books come to my grade, new world of out of those hopefully. and of course $984.00 of george orwell. we live in that this dopey and i don't see any awakening right now. god, there is something called consortium news and counter punch and prove out. and the real news network on the intercept time, god, there are still sputnik and r, p, and z and, and asia times and the mobile times, et cetera. but that is for us will actually go out on our way to get the

information. i get different narratives and try to evaluate what the masses they go during the television and they watch cnn. and that's all they get. and that is the problem. if you have a democracy where the entire population has been indoctrinated into believing as a matter of faith, that we are the good guy believing that we have the right to do what we're doing. i mean, we have locked ourselves into this situation, which is very difficult to get out. yes, yes, absolutely. and pending themselves into a corner, matthew, i want to take advantage of your past professionalism here. can you comment if you want on these document weeks? what do you? because it's very interesting how summer using it to, to shift it narratives to change perspectives on the crane and other things like

that. and i've talked to a lot of people in the intelligence community, mostly retired. and most that, with this kind of scratch their heads over, what do you think of it? this is obviously from, from my line of work. this is sort of occupying the front end of the desk at the moment. it's the plastered everywhere within the united states and people are fascinated by it. there are practical aspects that probably go beyond what we're talking about or maybe seems small potatoes in the bigger discussions we're having right here. but i think it is starting to show some regular cortical regular citizens in america that there is definitely a problem in the united states in terms of the, the categorization of clearances. we have far too many people that get clearances, security clearances within our, within our governmental military intelligence communities. and we're seeing because of who did the leaks and why that person's as well. ok, matt, matthew, let me, let me jump to the chase here. how did this kid get these kinds of documents that?

well, that's the question. and and are they real ok? i think they're real because there is people too often want to take the hollywood version. they get fed a lot in terms of the intelligence community. we have 1400000 people with security clearances in the united states. and not all of them are senior officials with decades of experience. we have too many documents that get classified in order to process them. we end up with people like the individual that did the leaking with access to documents that now the thing i'd want to push back on is the idea of just how powerful were these documents that he actually leaked on to his gamer site. right, i mean there was some embarrassing things there to be sure. but the idea that, well, i don't know if taiwan is ready for a chinese incursion militarily. or if we don't keep doing what we're doing in ukraine, ukraine could end up facing real start. wow. ok, ma matthew mean ammunition, you bring up a very easily, chris, you know,

you bring up a very interesting point because they could discussions i've had with people is that if you really put your nose to the grindstone and look at all, you know, the you way ye, for example, i like that, that none of these documents say anything particularly new. okay. but they're being presented is some kind of splash. okay, i want to kind of shift gears ramos running out of time here. but john, i'm a, what is the feeling in the, in france? i mean we, we had this pension reform here. i suppose that you know, i'm a chrome did paula to gall and dis, you had got it done his own way here. what kind of pressures are peep? what kind of pressures are people feeling as this conflict in ukraine continues when the prospects are very bleak for nato, irrespective of all the propaganda that people are being fed. 45 seconds to my friend. well, i'm afraid i think her france is no different from anywhere else. i think there is a mass media problem that alva alfred decides mentioned. and while there may be a higher degree of understanding for russia and france than in other countries,

i don't think france is substantially different. that was, predictions have not come true. i have to say that haven't been power cuts in france. they haven't been, there hasn't been serious hardship just as the west put a predictions happen. come through it. come true for rush or either. right. so it way it's off the news and people instead are worried about, you know, pension reform, as you say, the ukraine thing is not really at the top of the gender at the moment. it's dragging on and i think that's probably part of russia's ivan strategy. i think russia knows that they will be wor, fatigue. yeah, pretty good if not already all been nay. sayers that have had over the last 15 months, i've said the same thing here. there that a different size have different agendas and timeframes who's got the cox and who's got the time or a gentleman. that's all the time we have. i want to take my guess in paris, switzerland, and in washington. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here. at ortiz, see you next time. remember, cross stuck rules ah

ah ah. ah. during the 2nd will work in nazi occupied. poland, virginia was a farming region. today is lot of ukraine between 19431945 members of the ukranian insurgent army led by stepan. bandera. nasa could thousands of poles in virginia in a diabolical ethnic cleansing process. the mergers were particularly horrific and brutal villages were burned and property looted. the valinda massa is without doubt one of the bloodiest episodes in polish ukrainian history. why our ukrainian politicians are still reluctant to talk about these events. how to modern day ukraine and poland view. this tragedy of the past,

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