and oberon, lady india, but although i sin janitor does seek community the lot, the effect that they thought 5 this edis and need that are very interested this science because the seeks in india are highly matched in their list. and they are very much about them parts. i love the india as such, and they are very happy being within india as such. so in back to the side to not see any kind deputy population that such women love. decala study movement to the weekend. the country in punjab is already bad as such and it got completely because you get abra finished up by operation blue star as well as by the material sticking by the in development of the band with system. but on the off 19 the 19 eighties and nineties as such. and since then it has been ha, it's has got the diminished and by the time it was them to get up and paulson everything was sad. back to not him. i've been fighting jap and today that is no

kind of spawn movement we'd imp on top as such. thanks for your company here in asi international. plenty more to be found on our website, auto dot com. as always, it will be back in 30 minutes with plenty more with with me. hello, welcome to wells of heart strategic autonomy is the ability of a state or group of states to pursue that interest or foreign policy goals. depending too much on foreign powers, it's

a bit similar to the psychological definition of maturity, the adult ability to fend for itself and according to my guest today, it is something that the european union has lost the site and the grief off. in the midst of the ukrainian conundrum, what can possibly bring it back? well to discuss that i'm now enjoined from paris by jacques, the peer director of the school for advanced studies in the social sciences professor superior. it's great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you very much. now i heard you said that the news decision to support your brain was emotional rather than rational. and i wonder what's underneath those emotions. is it ultimately you quit about ukraine and what's best for ukraine, or is it more about europe and its own issues? well i, when i wrote that it was an emotional decision. and i was focusing on to the

fact that, of course, i am very id of the war now in europe. i would have raised a lot of emotions. i was not critical on this emotion. what i wrote also was the fact that this is a z, the motion would add to be balance by a to strategic analysis of what was happening and that exactly what you didn't do. and he still not doing it. we know, and we understand that this war is a war of attrition. miss. considerably human and material cost on both side and her. so most important thing now is 1st her to try to achieve a cease fire and to try to achieve it kind of resume herbal,

a gleaming between both side. can i still get here because you, you're talking on both sides and i'm sure you know that this conflict is seen in russia is not a war between what's going on here, but rather as a conflict that involves many sides. and it's essentially from us, at least a proxy war. it's men are russia and the west. so when you talk about reconciliation and peace talks, what, what power is that you're talking about in a conflict? you have both of you have 2 side. oh, each side could be of course, divided into different parts. bert, a conflict is basically something which happen between 2 side an or insert ukrainian side. i am talking not just off to crane, but also of countries which are supporting you crate. nevertheless,

there is a problem of decision making, an easer ah ukraine as steel, its own decision making to decision to either agree on his, his fire or to open a discussions with russia will be a ukrainian decision or ukraine as no more. it's ability her to make a decision and then the decision east to be made by country which support ukraine. the problem is that these countries, as i said at many, jo, tie that the decision would be a ukrainian decision. so we act, it says series and you are right

a to point to the problem. nevertheless, i need a kind of decision making. and i seems that by adopting a much more resume able thinking about as is conflict. you need to united states hulu. as opened a more choice and more room to maneuver of for is a government ukraine. now, professor spirit, let me come back to your point about the ease supporting your crane for emotional or other irrational reasons. i don't have any studies to support that, but into, to me, i think there is a strong correlation between the ears, all internal problems are beads, death issue or bureaucratic hurdles. and it's support for they ante russian or pro

western pro e u a rotation. it's almost like ukraine's westward orientation is being used as a cycle. prov, you a lay, the ease own cell doubt or its own structural difficulties. and i've seen this trend all the way since the early 2000 tans, but definitely saw in 20122013. do you think there's any truth to that? well, our z e u. s. such was probably not existent in 2014 you at countries. part of the you, germany strong, great britain, nicer there, which was a part of the u. m. in these countries, at different agendas now. or it is also a fact that some european bureaucrats not are, you know, as a council or of members,

but some european bureaucrats i've seen in events happening in ukraine as my down and all these kind of uprising. um, they have seen something extremely important for the european ideas and they have pushed and of course, it is well known. and as these bureaucrats came to mind and demonstrations bad, a real decision making force in the you were still, i am the council of the head of the state, the prime minister president, until 4th, am in a z was no commitment. no real commitment of the issue in support of squint birth, quite general commitment that we all this service or you know,

responding to flattery. now, can i ask you something about russia because russia was never historically, at least, and in the recent times as well, was never antithetical to europe. we also idolized in western europe for quite some time, not only after the cold war, but even before that probably written, we were not as psycho frantic as the ukrainians, but there was a great degree of reverie and fascination with western europe. we saw the, you are a mineral reaches a very cheap crisis. why do you think it was never reciprocated? and why do you think this amity towards russia is so strong because it's one thing to criticize rush or disagree with its policy, but to portrayed in terms as you know, the ultimate evil. and this is what we're hearing now from many european leaders. this is something very surprising to us, despite all this long history of wars between russian european countries. as matter

of fact, a relationship between russia and you are ever been constantly are biased, bye relationship with russia and count trees of the you. this is not the same. sing you had a french russia relationship. chairman russia, a relationship, even a good britain, aggression. ok. the problem was that by 2040 of relevance of this bilateral relationship was certainly stronger than it was now. an ah, now you have because of this emotional reaction, a kind of an commitment of the e u as a wall on a distant policy. and of course, zis, policy is extremely and violently anti russia. that is

a list you can still hear in government of country member of the u, storm discarding voice. and so the real problem is the fact that nobody knows what is you. is it just an audience of entries and zahn? ah, you had to lead this county's decide. but of a position before iving. an you position or is it, is you a kind of fidel rishon with all the countries being like state in the united states? you know, and so when you are cupping with the united states policy and watch or what sing as the governor of california or, or of new mexico does of matter. with all due respect to this voice of reason, or the european union is supplying arms against my country and people of my country

soldiers of my country being killed. and by the way, not only of russia, but also of ukraine, this war is being prolong, thanks to the supply of our weapons from across europe. and more than that, we're hearing official leaders of europe supporting the war against russia until the end, whatever that and mean and they're in defining is in very crusade like terms and very ontological terms. it's a battle against an ultimate evil. do you think the, you have the resources and the mind, the heart of the treasure and the soldier is the skills there capacities to win that war against russia. because if history is anything to go by, you know, clearly. so you have been consider ribbons. the main problem is that no one is really admitting that says, is a very,

very important problem. and this is why i said, i'm at one time or another at some seas far and some agreement will have to be reached and that it is not resolved able to make a commitment on to her highly ontological, her position, like to say. and ukraine is m healing hell for goodness, and that's in her all the serenity. we know that it will not be the case. and actually we had an example and historical example as a war between finland and the soviet union. bossy, 9040 andy 9044. the fin blendy government acknowledged the fact that it's a coastal floor. so human coastal floor was much too high and decided

to negotiate with soviet union in accepting a summer loss of to retrieve. i watch and i think your opponents would tell you that the new government of finland has since abandoned this kind of logic. but let's return to this very topic after a very short break. we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah ah ah

ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be in arms. race is on often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time time to sit down and talk ah, ah, welcome back to was acquired with shark superior director of the school for advanced studies in the social sciences in paris. paris,

this appeared before the break. you were talking about on a trial, anti and the conscious deliberate calculated decision on the part of the post war authorities in finland. the to choose what's best for its own country and to treat neutrality and security as you know, as actual matters of policy. but i think the problem with the european union is what some russian scientists call value radicalization or even a value fundamental isn't because no moral code other than a european or western world code is accepted. and i think that's one of the reasons why russia, china, and you know, everybody else who disagrees with the west are treated as, you know, ultimate axis of evil. what can possibly change that. and what do you see as the, in the root cause of this phenomenon? when, you know, i'm the only source of witness and wisdom, and if you disagree with me than you are my eternal enemy. well,

i think that we have to retreat from 0 value. fundamentally, it's absolutely of use and i think that we will retreat at just because we don't have the ability to support ukraine for very long in the war as it is found right now i'm. i think that, oh so, so important turning point would be when ukraine we launch it's fame counter offensive. so talking of that the 4 weeks even for bonds. ok. just admit said see it's a lodgings east count offensive. it say you. so then one, what are the you as nadia ability to support ukraine any more the united states as no more is the ability to support ukraine. so

more so, if we are understanding that as again, pension of the united states are more and more attracted by china and by the problem of taiwan. so at one time or another, i think it will happen during the summer, at one time of another. ah, we have to retreat from value fundamentally and all in government in chief will have also to retreat and to tell the population. yes, we see that we're, we'll have a victory against russia. we coolant. we need to negotiate and began this conversation by mentioning this fancy term strategic autonomy that french president they use so proudly after he is a visit to china. now he immediately after using it, i've got some reprimand from across the ocean. and in general,

i think the french leader has a reputation of her, you know, talking too much and doing, and not translating that exactly in policy terms. let's put a diplomatic limit. do you think that was sort of an expression of microns own ambition and inkling? was it all about his personality, or do you see that as a potential within our french policy? can france be the one who will sort of put it feet down and say that, you know, we are going to be a nation that stands for its own national interest and for europe's interests are independent of what our american allies want us to do? well, ah, there is certainly a personal dimensions or even declaration made by president mackerel. and well, we have to lead that on to side because much could be said about the personal and the own personalities of macro. what is true is that there is still in frost,

a strong feeling that, or interest i'll nods a seam than once of the united states. even if they're not in conflict necessarily . but they're not a c, or that even or interest are not necessarily the see that german interest and there at one point or another, we need to, but full war or own national interest. after that, how could we do that? well, this is a discussion still going on as it is a discussion also, still going in germany and indifferent other european countries because erm some people are in europe have understood zed u. s. national interest and not

a see that interest of european countries and even r o m the european union. so at one time, at one time, zis divergence of interest will appear clear early, okay, when, when that happens back, as i said here, what, when you strategic autonomy mean in practical terms, given that you have several economic ties with russia, you are about to sever or minimize economic ties with china under the pressure from the united states. you have a mounting load of own internal economic political migration problems. can europe stand on its own? cannot continue to exist without some powerful nation to lean on be the united states or somebody else? yes, 0, he's some willingness to achieve these strategic autonomy. some

politicians are in the steady the district, the g autonomy is necessary if we want zed european countries and the european union could survive that ho. woolsey is blue moser, as this is of course, something we still don't know. i will also edible, by the sizing too much disposition. a pretty on my call, as probably under mine, is a very id quite end to make some decisions. the problem is that even if there is a kind of general agreement that some kind of strategic autonomy is needed for your rob, the re steel or launch a difference and may be conflicts between countries like fraud,

germany, italy, spain. so we will have 1st to find a kind of agreement on these conflicts before we call heck n z says, you know, it's a critical point on a to z, a european union decision making. that is, if we need 1st to have these kind of discussion between us before being able to move forward. lot on earth, so world and on. so will level i'm so i a force or decision making will be slew, been full. ah, not exactly clear for other countries, and you know, it's not just so problem of fracture it also to problem of china and may be also the problem of united states. now, can i ask you one last question because our time is running out, but it's

a fascinating one to me because a few years ago, you were lecturing a lot about the strengths of institutions and the importance of the session institutions within the an you know, successful economic as system, the capitalist system, that is, and the assumption was that western europe has great institutions. russia has also institutions. but if we look at the way russia has been able to pull itself together in both in the face of sanctions and in the face of this military operation, it's huge. financial, logistical military. our supply demands are. do you think that was actually an accurate assumption? because say, it seems to me that the rush is long like fissions in and facing this difficult times than europe has ever been in recent history. well on russia as a quite abs. usually effective institutions may be not om effect div open or formal institutions,

may be avi sometimes or institutions behind a curtain that still zeal z or institutions. and ers, a problem. now in europe, in said we have blurred institutions because, or understanding even of europeans, an institution is not the same. um, spanish government is not giving exist, same between nations of spawn, europe and institution centered german government was a french government. this is also part earned of the problem, but i seeing that informal institutions in russia as been particularly strong, as it's rather you're highlighting it a very important difference between our russians and reconsider ourselves to be europeans. and let's say, wasn't your advocacy for you?

it's all about definitions. you're arguing about asset concepts and for as the most important thing is worth worth. what works in reality, man, much war reality based. yes. but a informal institution called were and frequently called work or initial earth into short term, better than formal institution, burtons, or log it important to formalize what as been shaped in formal and this is where pretty easily were ah, russian economy also, russian society as a problem because it has a very, very long traditions. you know, i'm a booming to sit salaries to her a situation. but even under soviet union, you head this divergence between official institutions and industry treatment

behind the curtain. and we knows that institution behind the curtain was frequently more important than formal a institutions. it is more or less the same situation. of course, russia is, is no more is it as of yet union? it's absolutely different situation. but in this, you know, m in zayus are situation of formal and informal institutions. yes, i think that russia is still very embedded into zayus or id that informal institutions are working more effectively that thing more efficiently. and one more thing for us, i agree with you. we are on there and different on that to very different sides of the spectrum because you're putting all the value on formality and look where it led to your own union. i'm gonna destroy. it's something that the, the european union is falling apart because of a very formalist attitude to itself,

but a superior out of time has been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. thank you very much. and thank you for watching hope to hear again on the well the part with ah ah, number of prison is reportedly break out of the j a limit the kale since the done with all the president of the ship, possibly among the escapees. also ahead was of course i knew how famous i remember

can call the golf is interesting because i was sure that this time given the attention to withdraw the ugly behavior. everything would be different. but i was mistaken.