ah, hello and welcome to was a part strategic autonomy is the ability of a state or group of states to pursue their interest or foreign policy goals. well, depending too much on foreign powers, it's a bit similar to the psychological definition of maturity. the dells ability to fend for itself and according to my guest today, it is something that the european union has lost the site and the grief off in the midst of the ukrainian conundrum. what can possibly bring it back? well, to discuss that, i'm now joined from perez by shock, said pier director of the school for advanced studies in the social sciences professor superior. it's great to talk to thank you very much for your time. thank you. thank you very much. now i heard you say that the ease decision to support that ukraine was emotional rather than the rational. and i wonder what's underneath

those emotions. is it ultimately, and you quick about the ukraine and what's best for ukraine, or is it more about europe and its own issues? well, when i route that it was an emotional decision, i was focusing on to the fact that of course i every id of the war. now in your role, i will that freeze a lot of emotions. i was not pretty cool on these the most should. what i wrote also was the fact that the, the motion would as to be balance by a true strategic analysis of what was happening. and that exactly was you didn't do. and the steel lot to week or we know and we understand that this war is a war of attrition. miss considerable,

human and material cost on both side end are so most important. see now is 1st her to try to achieve a cease fire and to try to achieve it kind of resume, her blade gleaming between both side. and i simply hearing, because here you're talking on both sides, and i'm sure you know that this conflict is seen in russia is not a war between moscow and kia, but rather as a conflict that involves many sides. and it's essentially from us, at least a proxy war between our russia and the west. so when you talk about reconciliation and pissed off what, what powers that you're talking about in a conflict, you have both of you have 2 side. oh, each side could be of course give divided into

a different box. but a conflict is basically something which happened between 2 site an or insert ukrainian side. i am talking not just of ukraine, but also of countries which are supporting you crate. nevertheless, there is a problem of decision making, an easer ah ukraine as steel, its own decision making to decision to either agree on the cease fire or too often. a discussions with russia will be a ukrainian decision or ukraine as no more. it's ability her to make a decision and then the decision east to be made by country which

support ukraine. the problem is that these countries of seed at many, jo tie that the decision would be a ukrainian decision. so we're, it says series and you are right, a to point to the problem. nevertheless, i need a kind of decision making. and i think that by adopting a much more resume able thinking about as is conflict. you need to united states, hulu. as opened a more choice and more room to maneuver of for is a government of ukraine. now, professor spirit, let me come back to your point about the ease supporting your crane for emotional

or other irrational reasons. i don't have any studies to support that, but into, to me, i think there is a strong correlation between the ears. all internal problems are beads, death issue or bureaucratic hurdles and its support for they ante russian or pro western pro e u a rotation. it's almost like ukraine's westward orientation is being used as a cycle. prov, you a lay, the ease own cell doubt or its own structural difficulties. and i've seen this trend all the way since the early 2000 tans, but definitely saw in 20122013. do you think there's any truth to that? well, our z e u. s. such was probably not existent in 2014 you at countries part of the you, germany sprawled great britain, nicer there,

which was a part of the u. m. in these countries, at different agendas now. or it is also a fact that some european bureaucrats not a, you know, as a council or of members, but some european bureaucrats i've seen in events happening in ukraine as my down and all these kind of uprising. um, they have seen something extremely important for the european ideas and they have pushed and of course it is well known and as ease bureaucrats came to mind and demonstrations. but it's a real decision making force in the, in you was to and to council of the head of the states,

the prime minister president and so forth. and it was no commitment, no v you commitment of the issue in support of the grant. but quite general commitment that we service or, you know, responding to flattery. now, can i ask you something about russia because russia was never, historically least, and in recent times as well, was never antithetical to europe. we also idolized western europe for quite some time. not only after the cold war, but even before that, probably when we were not as psycho frantic as the ukrainians. but there was a great degree of reverie and fascination with western europe. with salvi, you, our mineral reaches a very cheap crisis. why do you think it was never reciprocated? and why do you think this army towards russia is so strong because it's one thing

to criticize, rush or disagree with its policy, but to portrayed in terms as you know, the ultimate evil. and this is what we're hearing now from many european leaders. this is something very surprising to us, despite all this long history of war between russia and european countries. as matter of fact, relationships between russia and the e. u. as in constantia plea by you, by relationship with russia and count trees of the e. u. this is not the same thing. you had french, russia, relationship, chem and russia relationship, even good britain of russian. ok. the problem was that by 2014 as of relevance of this bilateral relationship was certainly stronger than it was now, an ah,

now you have because of this emotional reaction, a kind of an commitment of the e u, as a wall on a distant policy and of course, zis, policy is extremely and violently anti russia, that is of us. you can still hear in government of country member of the u. storm discarding voice. and so the real problem is the fact that nobody knows what is you. is it just an audience of entries and zahn? ah, you had to lead this county's decide of a position before iving. an you position or is it, is you a kind of, for depression with all the countries being like state in the united states,

you know? and so when you are cupping with the united states policy and watch what sing as the governor of california or, or of new mexico doesn't matter. with all due respect to these voices of reason, or the european union is supplying arms against my country and people of my country soldiers of my country being killed. and by the way, not only of russia, but also ukraine, this war is being prolong, thanks to the supply of our weapons from across europe. and more than that, we are hearing official leaders of europe supporting the war against russia until the end, whatever that and mean, and they are defining it in very crusade like terms and very ontological terms. it's a battle against an ultimate evil. do you think the, you have the resources and the minds, the heart of the treasure and the soldier is the skills the capacities to win that

war against russia. because if history is anything to go by, you know, such efforts by various western countries didn't really bode well bode well for them in the past at least. well, um, it looked up to this issue clearly. so you as not see ability beat, industrial or military on to wager war or to support as a kind of war which is which now in ukraine that's absolutely clear. and as a stock of ammunition have been considerably depleted, are i seeing that in germany? it's less than 2 days of far probably the same in from all serbs, some really to with our even think we would just have just one the of ammunition left. okay. bat. at the main problem is that

at no one is really admitting that the city's is very, very important problem. and this is why i said, i'm at one time or another at some seas far and some agreement will have to be reach and that it is lot result able to make a commitment on to a highly ontological or position, like to say on ukraine, ease m healing hell for goodness, and that's usually how all the sovereignty. we knew that it will not be the case. and actually we had an exam and historical example as a war between finland and the soviet union. bossy, 9040, and in 9044. the fib,

lindy's government acknowledged the fact that it's a cost a floor. so human coastal floor was much too high and decided to negotiate with soviet union in accepting a some loss of to retrieve. i wasn't, i think your opponents would tell you that the new government of finland has since abandoned this kind of logic, but less return to this very topic. after a very short break. we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah ha. march 20th, 2003. the u. s. army and its allies invaded iraq,

iowa. especially. i hate to say that to day. let me know kind of was it anybody else ever, yvonne? 07. how died? when died in the may, the 1st 2003 us president george bush declared victory in the iraq war the, the project i, you know, up i would put up for july and i found it, but rental hired to december, the 30th 2006 said i'm hussein was executed at amazon, we'll shut down them. on december, the 15th 2011, a ceremony was held in baghdad to mark the end of the u. s. military mission. in reality, the u. s. army is still in iraq. a globe. she had a village, and still a couple people are there ah,

[000:00:00;00] ah ah, in talking to one of the parts with shark superior director of the school for advanced studies in the social sciences in paris. because this appeared before the break, you were other than a european or western world code is accepted and i think that's the only source of

goodness and wisdom. and if you disagree with me down on my eternal enemy, well i think that we have to retreat from 0 value. fundamentally, it's absolutely of use. and i think that we will retreat at just because we don't have the ability to support ukraine for very long in the war as it is found right now. and i think that, oh so, so important turning point would be when ukraine we launch it's fame counter offensive. so talking of that the 4 weeks, even 4 months. ok. just admit said see it's our lodgings east count offensive. it say you so then what, what are the you as nadia ability to support ukraine any

more the united states as no more the ability to support ukraine. so more so, if we are understanding that as you can pension of the united states are more and more attracted by china and by to problem of taiwan. so at one time or another, i think it will happen during the summer, at one time of another. ah, we have to retreat from value fundamentally and all in government in chief will have also to retreat and to tell the population. yes, we see that we will have a victory against russia. we coolant. we need to negotiate and began this conversation by mentioning this fancy term strategic autonomy that french president the youth so proudly after his visit to china. now he immediately after

using it, i got some reprimand from across the ocean. and in general, i think the french leader has a reputation of her, you know, talking too much and doing, and not translating that exactly in policy terms. let's put a diplomatic limit. do you think that was sort of an expression of microns own ambition and inkling wasn't all about his personality? or do you see that as a potential within our french policy? can france be the one who will sort of put it feet down and say that, you know, we're going to be a nation that stands for its own national interest and for europe's interests are independent of what our american allies want us to do? well, ah, there is certainly a personal dimensions or even declaration made by president mackerel. and well, we have to lead that on to side because much could be said about the business,

the own personalities of macro. what is true is that there is still in frost. a strong feeling that or interest i'll nods a seam than once of the united states, even if they're not in conflict necessarily. but they're not the same arm that even or interests are not necessarily to see that german interest and they're at one point or another. we need to, but full war or own national interest. after that, how could we do that? well, this is a discussions to you. oh, going from as it is a discussion also, still going in germany and indifferent other european countries because erm some people are in europe have understood that

us national interest and not are seen that interest of european countries and even r o and the european union. so at one time, at one time, zis divergence of interest will appear clear early. okay, when, when that happens professor appear. what would you strategic? a tony, me mean in practical terms, given that you have sever economic ties with russia, you are about to sever or minimize economic ties. so with china under the pressure from the united states, you have a mounting load of own internal economic political migration problems. can europe stand on its own cannot continue to exist without some powerful nation to lean on be the united states or somebody else? yes,

0. he's some willingness to achieve these strategic autonomy. some politicians are in the steady the district the g. autonomy is necessary if we ward, zed european countries, and the european union will survive that. ho. woolsey is blue moon said, as this is, of course, something we still don't know. i will also edible, by publicizing too much disposition. i put it on my call as probably under mine. it is a very idy because i, you know, a legion or a legal as an expiration and said, well, ah, it is not shouting you rob your rob europe. ah, ally, goods are on her on

a table that you will make sync to advance quite frequently on this very important, but also very difficult issue of strategic autonomy. it's better to quit, to keep quiet end to make some decisions. the problem is that even if there is a kind of general agreement that some kind of strategic autonomy is needed for a europe that re steel or launch a difference. and may be conflict between countries like france, germany, italy, spain, a, to find a kind of agreement on these conflicts before we call hack. n z says, you know, it's a critical point on a to z, a european union decision making. that is, if we need 1st to have these kind of discussion between us before

it being able to move forward on her so world. and until now i'm so i, of course, all decision making will be slow, painful. ah, not exactly clear for other countries. and you know, it is not just the problem of russia, it also the problem of china and may be also the problem of united states. now kerry, asking one last question because our time is running out. but it's a fascinating one to me because a few years ago, you were lecturing a lot about the strength of institutions and the importance of the session institutions within the m, as in a successful economic as system. the capitalist system, that is, and the assumption was that the western europe has great institutions. russia has also institutions. but if we look at the way russia has been able to pull itself

together in both in the face of sanctions and in the face of this military operation with its huge financial logistical military, our supplier demands. do you think that was actually an accurate assumption? because say, it seems to me that the rush is long, more efficient in facing this difficult times than europe has ever been in recent history. well on russia as quite obs, usually effective institutions may be not om effect div open or formal institutions, may be avi. sometimes or institutions, be hines, occurs to that still, zeal, z or institutions and ers, a problem. now in europe insert, we have blurred institutions because, or understanding even of europeans. an institution is not the same. um,

so spanish government is not giving exist, same between nations. office bomb, europe, and institution centered german government was a french government. this is also part of, of the problem. but i seeing that informal institutions in russia as been particularly strong as it is rather here, highlighting it a very important difference between our russians and reconsider ourselves to be europeans. and let's say, wasn't your advocacy for you? it's all about definitions. you're arguing about asset concepts and for as the most important thing is worth worth. what works in reality, man, much war reality based. yes. but a informal institution called were and frequently called work, or is a short earth into short term, better than formal institution. burtons are logged it important to

formalize what, as being shaped in formal and this is where pretty easily were, ah, russian economy also, russian society as a problem because it has a very, very long traditions. you know, i'm a booming to such sorriest or a situation. but even under soviet union, you head this divergence between official institutions. and it is the 2 twin behind the curtain. and we knows that institution behind the curtain was frequently more important than formal a institutions. it is more or less the same situation. of course, russia is, is no more. is it as of yet union? it's absolutely a different situation. but in this, you know, m in z us

a situation of formal and informal institutions. yes, i think that russia is still very embedded into zayus or id that informal institutions are working more effectively as something more efficiently. and one more thing before, as i agree with you, we are on there and different on that to very different sides of the spectrum. because you're putting all the value on formality and look where it led to your own union. i'm gonna destroy. it's something that the, the european union is falling apart because of a very formalist attitude. it's all but a severe we're out of time. it's been a fascinating conversation. thank you very much for that. thank you very much. and thank you for watching hope to hear again on the well to part

with . mm. ah, a business, anything. but they want to find that out with my boss, with, with key at the, when washington's keep, the process is to deal with money complete with us for go with the phone with you on the bus id for, for school lithium door. you put up a list of all,

but each with ah, with ah, ah, ah, ah! hello and welcome to cross stock, were all things considered on peter lavelle in light of nato's assertion this past