energy supplies and causing what may have been the single biggest me thing to mission, events ever recorded, and environmental catastrophe. and now hersch, the legendary journalist, known for exposing cover up like the u. s. army is massacre at me. lion torture of prisoners in abu ghraib joins me again from washington d. c. with more revelations. this time reporting that the cia was well aware that ukrainian president, for them is lensky and his entourage embezzled hundreds of millions of dollars in usaid. thank you so much. i cipher coming back on, i mean, after revealing that the terror attack, tell me about this $400000000.00 of us public money and, and i think most american media covers the fact that the american public certainly need $400000000.00 for infrastructure. tell me about the latest scandal trading with the enemy. oh, well, you have to know that the budget right now the actual money. i think the, the, my government is spent on that war is about 5 months ago was about

113000000000. and it's now up to $120.00, so the $400000000.00 figure when you compare it to that, the great gross amount of money we spent there is almost trivial. but one of the things that really bought the base, i learned that just 2 months ago, the ukraine nice a lot of diesel fuel to keep us army going to keep its trucks going. it, they use diesel and it, and, and they have, since the war began. they've been buying diesel from russia and, and, and, and as they weren't supposed to, right. they went up, they're not supposed to be funding the war on landscape, not really finding the war on zalinski assist the war a, even that per, the chest instills. and that war, they were buying their oil from russia. i just, i, you know, it's just, you know,

as a all, you know, the old line b, s a walks and money talks. and the foreign to me was just a few. the estimate that i had been told by people i've known for decades and was, was the scam on just the oil money. but let alone it's sort of disturbing that ukraine's buying oil from russia was from that war. i mean, but you know, the oil and money transcends every bit of rationality, i guess. but then to discover the foreign to me, it isn't, isn't all. i mean, you know, all you have to do is look, look at the high life in key of today. there's a really good high life and he left the group, the fancy restaurants are going, you can find liquor stores of everything in it. there's a lot of money being pushed around. and so what happened was, this would have been 3 months ago or so the c, i a director r c, a director of burns bill burns, who's really

a diplomat. i is there and been in the cia. he said a great careers ambassador to some places at quoting russia by and by and actually at which, and when he finishes tours of bastard or russia, wrote a my more in which he warned against expanding nato to the east because of the lead the war. but that's not what he likes to talk, which makes it even more weird that he ok, the north stream pipeline disaster from your previous article. he was the middle he was he was given. i think the only job major job left when abide want got in and by what happened is burns retired from his foreign service. he was deputy secretary state and a quite reasonable guy. went to the carnegie foundation as president. and then when biden got in, the question is what job would he have? he wanted a job in foreign policy. these are for, this is the way it works to washington. these are professional, the government officials, you know, once you're in there's always going to be a job for you. and the only job big job there was left for cia and he took it. i

would guess that he, that maybe if there's a 2nd term tony blinking will retire or something. i have no idea why he took it, but he did. he was the middleman when the, when the cia and other agencies ran a covert operation to destroy the pipeline. when he comes off better in fan is in the, in this piece about alleged corruption of the zalinski administration in viet because you say that your sources are telling you yeah, i had words with zelinski and i should say, since he denies all corruption, he was named in the panama papers. but according to you, you're saying that's a lensky. m was told off by bill burns about all is. so then he's officials writing around and you have a new mercedes benz is and the like the actual message as i understood it. and he was not alone on the trip. so the actual message that is there other people from

the community with him intelligence community. the actual message with science key was the magenta of the bureaucrats. and the generals are getting very angry at you because you're taking too much of the, of the scam if you're taking a bigger cut. and he was given a list of 35 people that were involved in them and corrupt activities, the lens. he did fire 10 people on the list, some generals and officers, and some survey and bureaucrats. most of the agencies in the government that normally do contracting work normally do directly with normally you do a contract with somebody supplies toilet paper, your contract, the paper company, everybody has gone to brokers. everybody's now getting 3rd parties involved because that increases the chance for money on the side. and the corruption there is just beyond belief. it always has been and that doesn't change. and so that's all i was writing about. but you know, like a lot of the stuff i write about, you know,

they keep on saying unnamed sources as if, you know, and all those years i was at the new york times, winning a lot of prizes from my work van back in the 70s. and watergate and stuff like that, and vietnam, how could you possibly name sources you put, put people in jail. but you know that, you know, you know, we've been talking for years. we know that you know how to game as we never reveal our sources as, as the, as you said, zaleski did fire people. i don't know whether that was just to make it look good or that was because bill burns was telling him, was it bill burns that told them to do hearing the fire 1010 of those who the most of ostentatious living, you know, in key of living well, in the best apartment and showing a lot of money and buying a new cars, and he fired those who are ostentatious was the word. and another 25 just were left untouched. or is why be shark? it's the ukraine's always been at the bottom of the list or the top of the list of

terms of corruption. yeah, i think everyone's shocked in the mainstream media community because that's key as a hero. and it was bipartisan bipartisan in congress to send so many billions of dollars worth of public money when you're in a cities or a crumbling clearly, and perhaps is the journalists in kiev drinking the wine. who knows? because, so what you're saying is zelinski is buying is fueling the war on ukraine by buying russian oil in the black market. russia, russian, the diesel is roger is obviously funding a ukraine because with north stream gone, it has to be transit fees for gas and going through ukraine actually. and that's part of it there. are you know this the price of diesel, but there is still a gas line that was, was operational, i think, in the sixty's, a long time ago from russia through ukraine,

into some of the countries that in western europe, old warsaw block countries. you know, the old number, the warsaw block that existed as an opposition to our nato. i guess, oh, it was. and they have to pay the transit fee pens, even every, every gets russia continues to pay a chassis fee for that pipeline. an oil does flow, but it doesn't go to your credit goes through ukraine and, but there's always been incredible complaints over the years. i mean, for decades about ukraine plug into it illegally and citing. somebody go out. but that was before the war. it's just look, i didn't know i should be a giggling amount of because it's, it's really quite a crazy situation. and as you know, that the united states is from the kennedy days on there's all sorts of speeches and talks and concern about the fact that we viewed the fact that russia has so

much oil so much and so much under price oil for years. so much very clean methane gas and they've been selling it particularly want to europe at one low price is a lot of it keeps everybody warm and happy new businesses flowing. and we always use that as a weapon, russia weapon, ising, it's oil. okay, well you know, we, i think we, we did talk about it on, on lee nord stream episode. people going to look at it on rumble. but also in your article, you're talking about weapons, real weapons. actually there was an american w b. i host randy critical was in dubai in transit from don't yet. he wondered why a comedian was in don't yet, rather than us journalists covering the war and he saw with his own eyes the kind of killing that was been going on with the u. s. high. mars and so on. i understand that the exports of arms from ukraine are

gaining traction here. they, they're not just killing web people in europe. tell me about this booming weapons export market was not written about it, but i've obviously heard, you know, i don't, i don't where they call it the dark marker to the black marker, very early poland, romania, other countries on the border were being flooded with weapons. we were shipping for the war to ukraine. in other words, commanders of various, you know g, i don't, i don't know what level. often it wasn't generals, it was colonels and others who were given a shipment of some weapons would personally resell, i'm a retail and back into the black one. the dark market and including they were, the concern at night is a lot of concern. and this is months after the war began. last february are included, these handheld a missile guns, missiles that could shoot down an airplane, you know, at

a considerable height. and so there was a lot of concern about that, but and one at one time about 6 months ago, maybe more c, b s wrote a story about it that they were forced to retract they pub in cs, television put on the air show about the arms listed or tracking these mistakes? no, they just, they were just, you know, everybody's, you know, everybody's, it, we're, we're, we're on the side of ukraine. we all hate russia. and you know, and biden hates russia and, and he h china and was totally a blake and the secretary of state a jake sullivan, the national security advisor, and victoria newman, or blinking i column wickham, blinking and now they're all unified in their public. the station and contempt for russia all things russian and the same for china. i hear that binds in the process of going to try and discourage certain sales of,

of goods from china to the united states is going to bar some. these are the sanction those where i just don't understand where this immense pop point of hate comes up. yes, put did a terrible thing by starting a war and that's going to be on him forever. you know, he actually started one when he didn't have to know is that convinced me he did not have to? i don't, but i think you could have negotiated something. you're going to get that if you're going to get that interview, it put him clearly because he and the russian side say, the war started way before i read it. i read his interviews, they're quite interesting. i'd say that's his argument. i miss, you know, and remember 2007 or one of those international conferences that seems a horrible. he actually publicly said, i'm one is you take me in, anita, i'm in europe. and so i did. i say you can, history is what russia did. they started the 1st, the bloodiest warren in,

in western europe since world war 2. you know, i don't know, you get this larvae or was, it was pretty bad. sy hersh, i'll stop you there. more from the pulitzer prize winning legendary journalists after this break. ah ah in light of nature's assertion this past week, the ukraine will be a member of the military alliance. is natal planning for a direct military intervention in ukraine? if yes, then it intends on going to war with russia. ah ah

ah ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with pulitzer prize winning, legendary journalist seymour hersh, who i want to get on to. i mean, i should just also say that there's no you mentioned blink and there's no sign yet . there any element of corruption at that level, this is g, a strategic as far as where as blinking. no, there's not, he's a wesley collection insult, and he's a capital partner, hedge fund or equity company. there's nothing about that as this is donna lang

residence. there's never been an issue. i mean he's, he's look, he's a perfectly, he's been, he's a great public servant. he is now the secretary state, but he's been biden's number one man, as, as he rolled through congress when you were, he was with biden one. he's on the do just sorry, committee was bite mondays on various other committees. he's not a net. he's never served as an ambassador. never served in the st. marvin. he's overseas the secretary's day because he thinks he can bully people. and jake sullivan's biggest claim. the thing was, he was hillary's lawyer when she was in there during a lot of investigations including the g mail. and he also ended up working at brookings. with strobe talbott, who won, he was deputy secretary of state. and the clinton administration was the major pusher for expanding nato to the east. that was, that was actually when the chinese embassy was bombed in slavery, when served all. but we got to remember that you also mentioned the, the 82nd airborne is training in poland. what, what do they do it,

why would the 2nd have been a 101st is in is who are they 1st? who is the 2nd airborne year? who is the executive board and why should we wait a 2nd and we're just, we're leaking in this of the army. it's a brigade which is composed of 5 companies, which is maybe $7500.00 men. and last year we also brought the 101st infantry airborne, another elite unit, another brigade, 5 companies, or 4 companies and add on add on. companies probably would back up forces. we've got 20000 american soldiers exercising, doing training missions, maybe in poland, 60 miles from the border with ukraine. romania. it's a little farther, but they're so easy, easy, you know, they would have ordered a doing. i mean, what if they think they're going to be doing? well, i don't know, but i asked them my story and you know the story you're talking about, which ran a couple weeks ago. that's what i asked. i asked, what the hell,

what are they there for? what's the plan? if the war goes bad? this jose, if jose willing to buy a blow up a pipeline and keep it his best sell. i'm one of our good allies in nato, but germany a cold and a little bankrupt. you know, it's not, you know, it's, it's going to be cost a lot of money to replace the, the cheap gas he was getting out of north stream too. he was going to get and, and so he got rid of that. what would he do? the more, you know this, all this talk about an offensive. i think it's been going on. but what would, what would you do if it's suddenly did turn bad as i will tell you, most of the people i know think it has think that's just the question of what wants to do when, but you know, that's not what you're seeing in the western papers, and by the way, all of these are intelligent cerebral reports that have come out in the last week.

some are very interesting, but in general we all know that day, oh, cliche about intelligence. so please, you know, they're taking a rosy picture, some of the numbers in it, but again, their documents and so the, you know, they get tremendous attention. because, well, i wasn't the attention to the content of the leaks from the band. again, the got the attention, it was, it was trying to get compare, wasn't it? we use the private you open euro, your whole life is being dependent on the 1st amendment and of maybe the 4th amendment of the us constitution. what did, what do you make you feel when they weren't talking about, as you are saying, the pentagon leaks about rosie pictures of counter offenses by the gradient. they were talking about your paper. the new york times was story about how to, how they help the f b. i the apprehension jack, texas tech zera, this 21 year old national guardsmen. i don't get me going on. the press

says that there's a no with the press is a no win situation may look, i worked for years at the new york times and i'm sure everybody to pay for it. i always want to lot of prices, and one of the most important stories i wrote about them ca, spying on american citizens, had nobody named in it. and so the of the notion now, so there's always this, the, it's, it's, i'm certainly an outsider. now i'm publishing on a subset, which is a, i'm self publishing in essence. but i will tell you, for sure. i have retained a terrific editor, somebody i worked with at the london review books, and one of the other of your books has gone pro ukraine by the way. i just read the latest issue. but i was trying that what i was trying to get out there was, this is worse than when i last spoke to you a few weeks back because last time you were criticize a year old paper, the new york times. now it's not the with the new york times, not printing important news of interest in the public interest about what's happening in europe and who knows where else they're actually and growing about

aiding the f. b i and capturing alleged whistle blows. that's a new one. has moved in let me make it broader than in new york times because there's, you can't win an argument with the, you know, i just, i don't want to get into an argument, but i sometimes do but, but trump terrified the press that he won. after all, the mocking they did, and they're terrified again, and i will tell you there's a lot of people very worried that we may end up with the biting trump ticket in 2024. and. and so the times response to the trump and all the, all the horrors, the january, 6 invasion of the capital has been, i think, to make a very distinct commitment to being pro, by there's very little criticism about him. none of the stories i've written about biden, none of the allegations are more than allegations with

a lot of specific look. i know much more than i said about what that mission took place in the base. it was based on knowing what we were doing. and so none of followed the story in any way except the right counter stories given by the intelligence community. so the fact that the, it does wash to way so, you know, you cannot be shocked at the times would be as good citizen turning to the test, the higher the of course i am, but you can't be see, there you go and you're going to make me get self serving, but the sources you want are people that are motivated then ever since i did the meal i massacre story, which made a lot of people in the military who suffered through vietnam and the horrors there and kept their mouth shut because they wanted to get that next are the next promotion, and they knew talking about it. so i was an ex peter for them. and so the people that i talked to take the oath of office, they have to take it every year in the military. anyway,

i think in state department to they don't take it to their boss or the colonel or the general or to the president. they take it to the constitution. and those are the people i have. i know and many, many more than my think who i talked to because when they see something wrong, even though their job may be online, if i, if i screw up and somehow do get them nailed in the story, right. but they talk to me and the times, you know, i don't think when i worked there, they had those kind of sources. i mean, i know that because they relied on me for certain things. you with how you are the person we're going to the end of the best person. well, i noticed as a spokesman, a pretty, you know, just a one star able named john kirby ways to know when he was a junior officer in the, in the press office for the secretary of defense. when i was working at the new yorker and writing about no w d and all that stuff by the cheney bush stuff, much critical stuff. and he was then involved. now, he is

a merge as the fellow who backs up the when, when there's a critical issue. he backs up the president press a young woman, he's always there to answer questions and he goes on the sunday talk shows. we're talking about a prescott now being going on the stork. so that used to be the domain of the secretary, the state, or the national security advisor. you don't see much of those guys anymore right now. i don't know what's going to happen with the pipeline story. i don't know if it's ever going to come out because this government will never investigated it in anonymous way because the un un won't either despite russia and china, and brazil wanting to and you're intimating their, the anger actually in the latest because you seem to be intimating there is an anger at certain levels there, but did it at least vindicate you a little that while you were being characters fascinated and not covered with the sin of omission,

the mainstream media. did you think it was because of your article that i love? schoultz would not get take questions when he visited biden last month. i mean, why people were saying, well, why did the, i mean, presumably even the, so go mainstream media had your article on their, their mind and, and now the washington post is, can see that the european investigators don't believe the, the billing cabs. i mean, this is some out organization slowly getting traction. i mean, do you think that's why john schultz was not allowed? i mean, normally you'd have him and biden doing questions when they, when they do the phone, i know it doesn't matter what i think because i don't know what the answer. i do know that the community intelligence community is it feels i shouldn't. that's a big statement that there are people there who do analysis and right complicated report with complicated foreign policy studies, etc. you know, this and intellectual again and visual isolate. many of them feel isolated because

there's no sign that the white house is terribly interested in long term, what we call national intelligence estimates. and they certainly don't want one on the pipeline. and so there's a, there's a disconnect, i think, between some elements of the, of the, of the, of the and the community and the white house. i don't thing a stuff that's all i understand. but a lot of presidents, you know, when ronald reagan was president, they see i every day give something called the president. his daily beef is called the p d p. and guys and the cia up to 34. and i'm in to propagate musing a 3 year page thing for the president in a few senior people is the 2nd, the vice president, secretary of state us, other sect, f. not many people. it's a very hot document. and at some point it knows, it was understood that reagan wasn't really it. and so column paul, who's long gone, i can tell his story now. figured out the way to do it. he would,

he would tape it go on and to video. he would read it in a video and then plug the video in for reagan to watch. and that's how they got him to read the have he p hollywood. i'm going to say we, we don't have time to, to look at the latest piece which is a, which is guantanamo. and i know this is a watch this program in guantanamo in the tv room apparently. but i guess people should, i don't know if you have any very quick message to the people in what dana will be watching this in the u. s. prison camp. because your latest one is about the process. well, the only point i made is that the constitution united states is very clear on something called due process. and if you're in a jail in america, you don't have to be a citizen to get to process and you don't have to have been captured somewhere outside of america or american sovereign territory. due process is in the constitution. and none of the courts that educate at the very,

it's been legal issues that go to war. and the course of done something since forcing them made back in the bush cheney days of forcing the white house to at least the government to give some rights to them. but none, no court has ever said the one thing that nobody wants said, which is the prisoners have absolute right to due process. the way the court, there was a case decided a couple weeks ago that sort of blew my mind with some guy who was released. you know, they've been in for 20 to 20 years. gone to the torture prisons that we had back in the early days. got the guantanamo no evidence at all convicting and linking the anything. finally, 2 years ago he was released. he was said, you're free to go. but if you have to go to a safe country, well, he was from yemen and he wanted to go back there. and so the establishment, whether was the, the, the state of i was the people, the, i guess the military running the prisons there,

the establishment said it's not safe. so you can't go there. so he's been a little late, can read people to read on your sub stack about of the law. i'm you got you got a guy. i know you've got a guy schaefer, you know you, you are is give me grief as much as i give you. i always thought that i asked you know, grief science. thank you. that's hi joe. that's over the joe. we'll be back on saturday for the final show of this season with john perkins allege, well, back in i met economic hit man to talk about which world leaders are in washington's assassination. this mean, while you can keep in touch by all our social media, if it's not sensitive in your country and had to i channel going on, the grantee on rumbled com to watch new and old episodes of going underground to south. ah ah no one else seemed wrong when all 3,

just a sheep out disdain becomes the advocate. an engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah ah

ah ah, 3 guided rockets away targeting mud income money is perhaps the most fortified settlement that ukraine has under its control. he follows the anti tank crew near the city of mountain care and the done yet republic. now says russian forces make advances in the region despite strong defense is built by care. over the last 8 years, he used foreign policy chief calls on military ships to sail through the taiwan straits, the provocative approach that risk further escalating tensions in the region. john is celebrating its 7th.