these are the currencies of our friendly countries, which have no problems with transferring money for goods and services delivered. now the development of digital payment formats is on the agenda. western countries do not know what to fill the next package of sanctions with. now we hear that they want to completely bound exports, but we have already talked about counter measures. the restrictions are coming back to affect these various countries like a boomerang. well, so we see a rise in the cost of consumer goods. bass goes inflation and declining living standards. that is why these countries pursue short sighted policies. our task is to pursue our own independent policy reacting at least and partners to those restrictions that are being imposed with some breaking news from pakistan. now we're at least to 6 people have been killed and over 20 more wounded in a bombing of an anti terrorism unit facility. a warning for you some you feel is my

find the following images disturbing. according to local media source, as a suicide bomber detonated an improvised explosive device after entering the building, causing it to collapse, mos who's also targeted, there's no details on the motive or identity of the suspect. at this point, the north western regional pakistan has been plagued with terrorism for years. we will keep you updated as the information comes in, so do stay with us for that many thanks way company howard r t international will be back at the top of the hour with all the latest. we'll see you then. ah ah

ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered on peter level in light of nato's assertion this past week that ukraine will be a member of the military alliance? is natal planning for a direct military intervention and ukraine? if yes, but it intends on going to war with russia. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess martin j in mary cash. he is an award winning journalist and commentator and in budapest, b cross to george somali. he's a podcast her at the goggle, which be found on youtube and locals are generally cross talk rules and effect that music in jeopardy time you want, and i always appreciated. or let's start with george in budapest, george,

we have the secretary general of nato of nato sultan burger. he visited ukraine, actually for the 1st time since the conflict started um media reports, it was unplanned. i have a hard time believing that um, but you know what could be passed off is boiler plate commentary. ukraine will become a member of the military alliance. i don't take it his boilerplate. i take that very, very seriously. the kremlin has taken it very seriously to, in and out. it begs the question. if russia is its intentions for this entire operation is to on a deny ukraine. nato membership and nato persists. that means we go up the escalation ladder. george? yes, either. that's exactly right. because the issue of the ukraine's membership of nature is at the heart of this conflict. and if you insist upon the declaring that ukraine will be a member of nato,

something that it isn't written to the nato to decide it's up to lee the countries all native, the $31.00. now members of mit states of later to decide. but if you insist on that, it's very hard to see how any kind of a, a peace agreement is now civil and shoulder, but really isn't interested in any piece. agreement is clearly that he is declaring that, well, we have to go towards victory. and this is something that a p to you and i have discussed before, nato is nato leaders. now declare that russia will not dare to escalate to nuclear weapons as best i position. now though, we don't have to worry about russia escalating to nuclear. ah, but we, we need to, however, already to escalate so sure. russia just for, you know, move one h, one, ange, ah, to the west, we are ready to go all out and we are ready to escalate. so when you combine that

with these categorical declarations that are we, you know, that ukraine will be unaided. then these, i think we're in a very dangerous situation yet because martin is, is it didn't have to be, but it's being, it's being, it's been turned into an existential conflict. one side wins, one side loses and that, that, that is a craven choice on the, on the part of, of nato washington. okay. because we've, we haven't heard anything come out of the biden administration about how to end this conflict at all. and, and as its obvious for if these so called intelligence leaks are true, which george and i can, can as their, you know, their, their veracity. um, it says this has, has almost nothing to do with ukraine anymore. it all has to do with the west, brushing russia. that's what it's gotten down to learn. yeah. and did it, did it ever have anything to do with the chrome i one yeah. yeah. i think this,

this statement from still from the ne, so sick to general are somewhat astounding. and i don't know whether they can even be believable or they, they seem to be as believable as the pence can leaks. i also take about a skeptical view of pentagon leaks my, where i've been writing by this recently. and what is all this about? i mean, can we get helicopter view of it and try and get some clarity? is it that the media fodder is running out? is it just don't have enough to send to the journalist by the container load? you know, the stocks are running very, very low, and we need some more polar mix statements that are going to get really excited on . is it the nate? so actually believe its own narrative, does nato actually believe that we can get to a point whereby nature membership ukraine is even viable? i'm not sure. i think may be the name, the nature chief stone, but actually might well believe i'm so whether it's got the support of mistake, some of the matter you said about budget and we don't have anything about budget on

this. i didn't think we're going to hear anything. it's all combined and leaving. he's gonna, he's gonna campaign now is looking up which tick off at the end of summer. you know, i'm wondering whether this is george mentioned or lose. so i think this is definitely a way of ruling else, any possible chance of talks between the western russia and what is the definitive thing that you can do. you can actually state that ukraine to be a nation member at some point to me it seems like a bluff. it seems like a blast because we know that it's very easy for countries to become this. remember doing it is the backing from the parliament, sweden and finland recently. we saw that, but it's, it's a big deal with ukraine. it's not just the cleaning parliament, it's going to sign that. i'm going to get america and britain, which would have to sign that as well. and i can't really imagine the one, you know, in century issue of the nature members who claim being signed off. because what does that mean? that means, then there is no other decision making process whatsoever,

or us to send troops to you. great, now, and then how good your memory is. but a few months ago when you show, i said it was only a matter of time before the british american troops sent to ukraine. i wonder if we are running up now because the statement, i wonder if i wonder if nature is preparing us. because the big institutions like nature was, lights were on the ground when we started off over a year ago. you know, we couldn't mention, we got to where we are today. now we're talking about oakland sending jets by to jess to ukraine. you know, a year ago, also hearing peace quote unquote peacekeeping force could be sent from some coalition of georgia. martin has gotten to the whole point to this program. is there an eminent un nato in, in, as far as i around true, seemingly with nuts, national flags from nato countries entering. i mean, we can, we can have mercenaries and can volunteers, he can have all that. but i mean,

are we at this stage right now because i think we are, because there is the, they can't ratchet back. there's only one gear, it's forward. they don't know how to turn it around because, and they're not getting the results that they want. i mean, in the ukraine as a financial basket case right now, it can't pay any of its own bills. i need the, the prime minister of hungry is made that very clear. but that's the only logical next step george. but that means potentially world war 3. george, very, exactly, and there are clearly a number of nato member states that desire list. i really do want this world war 3. they want this epic, elliptic of playing out of forces that one of one final push to destroy russia to white brush off the map. and only time does that happen in history, georgia tech. i think that yes, unfortunately of and so we go, poland ah,

the baltic states. so check republic, slovakia, they're all on board and they want they somehow want this and great conflict with russia. they know have no other, they're not going to be doing the fighting in all of this, but it's a way of provoking this complain in other diplomatic, a spot with, with russia, but 20 diplomats on either side b expel. so this is an ongoing thing and so really the skeptics are really just pushed out for from all of this. and i think there's also a lot of troubling things that are going on on, on your peripheral differences in a week. this the story that appeared and we discussed it on the gaggle in the washington post, a very long article suggesting that any ah piece went in germany must be essentially banned because this is entirely engineered by the kremlin. and then we have in the united states, suddenly, the justice department,

bringing indictments against some obscure, ah, left this socialist black nationalist movement because they're being directed by the kremlin. so it's almost always in a preparatory we're, we're being prepared for a crack down on the free speech in anticipation. oh, well go 3 it with martin and my article 5 has been written here and mentioned here, i mean, what is its value? i mean, if we, if it's supposed to be a defensive mechanism to, you know, as it turns now, it's being flipped on and said, let's see how we can get it in vote. i mean, this is the world that we're living in martin. yeah, i'm, you should also remember that it is completely uncharted territory. you know, i think you mentioned on your own show a couple months ago that this is not on libya or syria. this is russia, you know, we're going to war with russia and i, i think there needs to be a real wake up. cool. i'm from nature member states to,

to exactly what they're getting in. so we can't, can we really even envisage article 5 scenario where other countries with then arrive of ukrainians border and cross it. and, and we were, we're in a world was recently already. and you know, you say about france, germany, germany is looking at the situation and thinking, if that were to happen, what would putin do to our own country to germany? there would be complete greenlight, cop gosh, taught for put into some rockets into the, into the germany across, across potent or even tank divisions across poland. they've said this, they've, they voiced this, so i'm, i'm skeptical that we can have a get to this doomsday scenario for me. but it is a game of chicken. that's what it's me, the english can. you mentioned. you mentioned the mercenaries, this is what i'm beginning to think more and more is to plan. see, i don't think we're ever going to get plan b gets a plan b as a tool for threatening for provoking major coverage and stirring up attention. but we can't really pull off the idea of ukraine being an a to member thus just far too

dangerous of how to fanciful the plan. see, i think, is there a compromise plan going on here? where by nato countries could start thinking about training, and perhaps covertly mercenaries. now that sounds completely far fetched or sounds crazy, doesn't it? but hang on a minute, britain allowed hundreds of young libyan man with british passports to travel to libya, to fight with al qaeda groups to overthrow the so called a mad dog gadhafi. so it's not as far fetched as it's, and i think i wonder whether nature members now has time to panic. the looking at some the, the, the, the ground forces russian grandfathers in back moot who had taken a considerable part of that region. and i wondering, will we survive back mood falling? i hope i pronounced correct. i'm sure some will correct me. will we actually survive his gruesome live it on a, on a public image level will be survive if you know, even, even on crush will ever will that be the end of nato?

because of that fools, you know, happens in was when, when one side makes a decisive victory, it doesn't stop them to stop and break out the bows of oak, a crates of beer. they carry on as a momentum there, you know, because you destroy the morale of your enemy. and i'm wondering whether they'll start to panic. now, western countries on nature. no point, martin if there's a sense of panic in the air and when you're buying it, if you're not looking rationally that dropped exit, or i gentlemen gonna jump in here, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine. stay with our t. ah ah

oh, when i was showing wrong, when i just don't hold any you won't have to shape out disdain. because the advocate and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. ah, welcome at the cross tucker. all things are considered on peter bill. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news. ah ok, churches continue with the line of thought that we had on the 1st part of the program

. one of the problems that you know, it's something you and i talked about extensively is the framing of this conflict. framing it in the weston and how russia frames it from the very, from the get go. the russians have said that ours, our security is at stake. you're not respecting our security concerns. we have told you for 30 years. nato expansion is the brightest of red lines. i'm actually quoting the current record of this um and but in the west it's, it's, it's, it's existential. but it is a turned into a purity test. you've already mentioned it. i mean, to say black nationalist left his group and criticizing the american support. if you can't, and they're facing litigation. ok. i mean, no descent is allowed at all is because it's a purity test. it's good in evil. that's not the way you should brain geo politics . it always ends in a disaster. george? yes, exactly. right. and that was, was so interesting about a stolen bug. i mean,

he was saying this in here, and then he went off to the ramstein and base. he said, well, we have to stick with this to the end. because because, well, because russia must not be allowed to win and why much russian will be allowed to win. because then we have the, you know, dictate those, get those in the, determine what happens in the world and, and so on. so it's kind of a perfect circular argument. we must win because if we don't win, then the other side wins. and then this is the most terrible thing. so there was no, any discussion as the what actually is the was a, the interest, the national interest of any one in the west. what, what difference does it make to you? ah, what happens in your brain? it's a, it's never explained a lot. well, this is a, this, or if a moral turpitude level of happens if a russia wins. so because of that,

then there is simply really no debate in the matter. and therefore, only requires is with me to continue to whip this up and say, hey the, the, the fatally a well, depends on what, what goes on in ukraine. and this is the problem that they have. so few rational voices that say this is that this is really a nonsense or on know a essential interest at stake, all the west care and, and that's why this, which is continued down the spark of escalation. it's hard to see how it's how and where it stops, because, you know who the, you know, going back into sh oldenburg, is pretty much saying that when it doesn't really matter what anybody says about the matter, this is just going to happen. we're just simply going to go ahead, is they the ukraine, which is the integrated within nato, without anyone having any vote in the matter? and the answer, you know, and that ever we, we just replace the, you know,

the soviet era weapon rate with nature weaponry. and that's all the rest of it. and you're just going to have to accept this. and the in the russians will be standing by watching the entire time. that's what i mean in, in a martin, one of the, one of the scary things about this. we've talked about civil liberties already here . but i mean, because of this and almost a blank check that it, this is the only way that's going to be you can suppress a civil liberties. it somehow legitimizes austerity, further for how the distortions of the economy. you know, people in the main immediate home i will, europe, survive the winter? well, of course it did, but it's in the winter coming. that's going to be the difficult one. not the one that just passed here. but see, because, you know, a nato must expand it, it must have ukraine. it's the reason why to cover up so many other issues that are, are, that are, are bubbling up in western societies all because of ukraine. i mean,

i don't see how that watches, but it certainly is a, um, a, it's, it's a way for the elite to legitimize the status quo. go ahead yet, and it's a massive conspiracy to distract media, a gum regular journalist from writing the regular stories on health care. you know it, even in america, i'm american friends are comes to me telling me we don't have health care in america. i think what they mean is free health care. and yet you've got a defense budget of what is it 7000000000. i am 800 minute. i'm not even sure if we can send a 100000000000 to ukraine. there comes a point and i guess it will be at the end of the summer when the u. s. election campaign starts. there comes a point where enough blue color people ask joe by this people look what the hell are we doing? nuclear, why we're selling a 100000000000 dollars there. when we got people here living on the streets and can't get healthcare, you talk about, i'm covering up these issues, it doesn't only happen on a national level. you sure. many, many journalists know not writing about healthcare environments, climate change,

the economy. i'm in preference for am so, so some of the subjects, but it's also, it's a isic isic genius moved by on the west also to not look at the international subjects . i mean, just look at israel's treatment of palestinians in the last 6 months. have you noticed it's got a lot worse. have you noticed the atrocities or just beyond any of our imaginations now it's just gone. it's gone beyond a pale, now it's gone over line. no, we can't. even in visit to connie mansion and the horrors that go on that is not getting reported. and the reason as not going forward is because there is this binary approach to instructional media which night. so people understand very well, which is, you know, let's focus on the big story, big stories, ukraine. we invest the money in, kind of correspondence, the, you know, we're, the cough has a very low i'm, i don't think this can go on forever. you know, i think there is a church it that that's the big question because you know, we, we had rush again. we had coven, i mean,

they have actually have resources to get to control the narrative. also, george, isn't it very curious. again, these weeks i get i can't really make heads or tails of it, but there's one interpretation of ukrainians are not winning. we have to double down. ok we, it's actually, they're trying to manipulate how people feel about it, what we have to win there. so what should we do? so, in a way, a, this is kind of helping the standard narrative that you need to do more plus, you know, us is falling and it's, it's international reputation. china is taking over all the more so to support ukraine. it's bizarre. it is, you can never lose. if your crown is winning, therefore we must stand in even more because a they winning. we know victories within our grasp. if your grain is not winning, if it is losing pain, we must send more, always 10 will prevail. so there's always a rationale for sending even more. and the problem is, is that, of course,

many people in america saying, well, what the hell are we doing and why, why we're spending all this money on ukraine when they're all these domestic problems that remain on the tended to are whether that voice never prevails. i mean, it's the amazing aspect of the american political system of the political systems as well as the actual desires of the public never really percolates of says, you know, we have our political debates. you know, they, they interact with all the david journalist and, and the german lever ahead. are you doing spending this money on your bizarre russian just information. think you're wrong about these questions. i think they'll start seeing the asked if you look at the washington post coverage of but moot just a couple days ago. the headline um rosette, doug, ukrainian church clinging on now. the washington post is the stalwart defender and supporter of buy them and under democrats to use that works on the can't you just

flip that in to say, but, you know, we now we have to interview day to has to intervene and we just have to interview with one of the reasons for that, that, that spin of the story when you go to put into comp, but it put into context. i think, i think you crying the ukraine program needs to wind. it needs to advance me to buy meat. if it does not advance and nothing happens in as a stalemate of status quo, by definition, russia is winning. and i think some of the journalist assigned to wake up to this and they are starting to asked is more difficult question is not a great number. i admit, but i think but to take george to talk, i think it's starting to feel awkward questions for us are being honest with you and i just looking on the point that i'm not made but not as a, as a point of contention has been for some time between the americans and the kia, and they've made it, the americans have made it clear in numerous, so us scoops will washing to post

a new york times. that they don't think it's worth it or the go on fighting for bach mood. they want ukraine to focus on li, counter offensive, the supposed counter offensive in the to break the of the land bridge to crimea. so that the, the, what the washing to post report is really part of a kind of an ongoing and leak and counter league of this is narrative that the americans want, which is stop it already with baffled waste of resources to focus on the of this land bridge in crimea. ok, but then also it also gives people in the pentagon. well, we told them, you know, not to do it. they're always looking for an escape at, i had to gate, they're not going to be held responsible for this. okay. well, we have one more minute left. go ahead learn. well yeah, i think it's don't judges right, but it's still a real town and it is still very symbolic and it will is still very crushing to the morale of the cranium troops. so, but i think more crushing on, i think more relevant is the timing of this nature statement about ukraine. they

say membership, i think it's really important that lensky is starting to get nervous. he started get nervous about the timeline about the number of, of military kid that can be sent to ukraine in the, in the time span. before we hit winter, you mentioned winter before the last winter was quite mild. if the next one isn't so mog, things may will be very different, but let's not remember that zalinski was the one who reached out to china at the end of february and said, call me now that has to be spoken americans. there's no way the bible can sleep well at night with this scenario that the as a j, it's china comes in and broke as a piece too because the credibility of nathan were just collapsed. people, willa people reduce people will think of nato, is nothing more than a talk shop by the arab league. or, you know, you're all in little something stupid if, if china comes in and until zaleski said he wants them to come in, you know, that changes the game completely. so i wonder whether this panicking from nature is

really about zalinski his own position. and that's what when we run out of time gentlemen, but we all agree on that. we see we can smell and see panic in the air. and that's why we all should be very, very worried always to little time for these big, big topics here. what i think my guess in budapest and medication, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, the next time, remember crossed apples ah mobile a show. but for the mother, when he was annual g, d. p per capita was about $4000.00 euros a . was there a primary coffee sealed with

fish, restoring them all the one to come out and actually both thought they would have thought of unemployment is off the chart. moldova territorial integrity and sovereignty. we respect a country which enjoys financial support from the u. s. n. b is constantly roth by political and corruption scandals. but all that didn't stop mo, google obtaining you turn to the truth is in 2022. ah, last claims at least the 8 lives in pakistan, at least more than 20 wound give following the suicide bombing of a police station in the country also ahead the currency, the over representation of the west in ms. me when body undermines the very

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