maintenance i one and now slamming the doors shut on the post 945 era of economic hitman that comprised nato nation lenders, corporations, the cia, and those who foster global war debt and famine. one of the hitman and someone who blew the whistle on them is john perkins. he allegedly advised the world bank, the m f. u. s. treasury department, fortune 500, that corporations governments around the world, his best selling confessions of an economic hit man is now in the 2023 updated 3rd edition. he's on bainbridge island of the water from seattle in washington state. thank you so much for coming back. on going underground, john, i've got to say it's a very different, very update to full of new information. if anyone thinks it's just the old confessions of economic hit, man, just remind us before he before we start, why it became required reading in the global south to be able amongst a elite stephen to understand what happened in the global south that these past few decades where famine and war and vulnerability has been

rife, a seemingly in nature nation media blamed on those people's living in those countries rather than that. something else? well, yes, i think it as soon as it's going to be with your dns and that way, um and you know, people in the global self like i get so many messages from them. and when i go in and visit and speak and places in south america and elsewhere, i hear that they knew the sort of thing was going on. but to actually have it be expose and in writing. and by someone who was there on the ground doing these nefarious things, which, which i did and, and asked them what to admit to doing them and, and, and, and i'll spend the rest of his life trying to turn that around is very gratifying to look so the book is very, very popular. it's been, i think, 38 languages now, sold over 2000000 copies. it's a and people in, in many,

many countries a say, you know, the united states needs to be called to reckoning on this. and now of course, this new workers deals with china's economic hit men who are doing pretty much the same thing. they, they've got a different story to tell. they've got a new marketing technique which is very, very effective. but it's basically the same story, their economic hitman learn from our failures and our successes, and they're doing out of much more efficient job than we ever did. and do you expect that to me, attacked by a mission in laden, they shouldn't media press or do they? will they like this one? because you do attack china, which is a kind of trope, many people doubt the we good story of people. good z. r is few with a we as a, as another story designed by the kinds of forces that you've described for decades to destabilize countries. how do you expect the response to this

a updated edition or to some instruction manual, how to destroy developing well countries to others? how to save them? well, my hope is that people will really look at what i think is the major theme of the book. and that is the economic hit man strategy in china. and the united states is taking us to the precipice of self destruction of the world as we know it, and life as we know on this planet. it, you know, we can talk about climate change in income inequality and species extension both problems. but they're not the problem. they are symptoms of this death economy. it's based on short term maximization of profit period. and it's not working. it trickle down economics does not work. and so, you know, in the book is about how to we've created life economy that pays people to clean up pollution to regenerate destroyed environments, to recycle, to develop technologies like wind and solar and, and, and non good,

non carbon emitting forms. and i don't, i'm even the end of the book here, there exercise the things for schools or education. how do you expect this stuff to, to happen given if you reach any level of power based on the rest of the text in the book. you may be killed, overthrown. if you get a democratic mandate, or are they will print stories against you? they will use all these. i mean, you, you got one side saying whatever you try, they will destroy you. and the other one saying, try for better world. well, you know, and i realize i'm citing probability, but history is based on an people who fought probability successfully, you know, and, and, and 1774. and then the, the concept in the united states in america was me. and i say check was that the british were in the sense that were in the feasible, they were invincible. they couldn't be beaten. and you know,

george washington sounds that before the continental congress and says, remembers how 20 years earlier, he was at the battle of monongahela during the french and indian war, where the biggest, most powerful british army was wiped out. and its general braddock was killed. and all the ot major offices were killed by a handful of french and indians. and washington says, what was the lesson there? not invincible. all we gotta do is high, benign trades go against probability. come up with a new system. i'm. my hope is that we, yes, the probability is that we're gonna go on doing this and we're going to create, continue to create a problems or more severe, hurricanes, more severe climate change, et cetera. but i believe that we can go against probability and a cause history is written by people who oppose ability and do something come up with a new idea, a new perception, a new approach. and that's what this book is about. an option as how we can all

come together. you know, the thing about it, it says with china, nice days can never agree to do something like this, to fight, to fight climate change, et cetera. but if there was a u. f o, hovering above us, an aliens were threatening to attack us. what would china in the united states do? they probably come together and she would say that they would come together. he does say in, i'm not saying you're a complete clairvoyant, but this is a direct quote from the updated edition presumably written in the early days of the ukraine conflict. in the long run, rushes invasion of ukraine may strengthen china's position as the leader in the movement to reduce the u. s. is students. so you are saying directly that a china and russia would move closer together after what happened in ukraine? are we seeing that now? is the chinese balloon story, an emblem of this fact? well, yes and, and of course, where else is in india and turkey and much of the lower and middle income country.

this is not siding with russia completely, at least not selling it with the nato in united states either they're, they're, they're, they're, they're not going against russia, they're. and so yes, we're saying that china is, is being strengthened in this process. but the fact of the matter is china had already taken over much of the war income countries, their, their investments in the last year, years in these countries, the a that they've given. if you want to call an aide, the loans are greater than the loans of all other countries including united states combined. they've been making huge headway. and, and i think the, the point here to allergic reaction is that we need to be aware of both countries at both countries. united states and china are in a competition a race toward disaster. you know, they're taking us into a, when i called. and we're a lot of economists like i had death economy and economic system that's consuming

and polluting itself into extinction. i mean, you talk about indonesia, you're one of the hit man after the great don't align movement ideas of chicago before, perhaps a 1000000 perhaps more were killed at the behest of cia led coo coo there in a sense that, that reflects that non alignment album. it's different now there are cycles to these things in the book you talk about cycles. i don't know what you thought of seymour hersh we interviewed on this program and his report on the nord stream attack. so there are times when washington will use debt as an instrument of war with the address payments, impoverishing the developing will countries. and then there are kinetic times like vietnam will iraq. just tell us a bit about these cycles and whether the crane situation is a, is a kinetic one or is a, it's something that the will to be technocratic and to do with debt. some people

say of the whole of western europe to us, gas, liquid natural, natural gas. well, yeah, you know, so, so after the failure war in vietnam failure from united states standpoint, at least strategically speaking, it wasn't a failure here. happened. oh, how to be a major investor and military industrial industry that they saw over as quite a success actually in a lot of money, in other words, but it was a failure strategically. after that it was decided that military might, wasn't the way to go. and that we needed to go with economic hickman, we needed to her essentially control countries through debt rather than the military. and this was, this went on for many years and a particularly ramped up after 1991 when the soviet union dissolved. when the united states was the only world superpower, but during this period of time, though, isn't that complex? the ones who make the weapons that big companies, that maker,

they made the airplanes, the lockheed martin's, and boeing's, and so on and so forth. they were not happy with that situation and they put a lot of pressure on, on the carter administration. and so in 911 happened, we went back into that cycle. this was a tremendously great excuse to rev up the military side of our, of our economy. and that's what happened after $911.00. and in some respects, sir, you the eucharist ukraine wars giving us the opportunity to wrap that up even even more in a certainly happening eyes, we're going in that direction and they way, you know, i've tried it and i know he in others on this program who were very good investigative reporters. it seems to be impossible to find out how much of this aid that we're giving to ukraine is actually in the form of dept. they can't be any doubt that sometimes it at least probably a lot of that is in the form of death. but it's hard to tell because what the american people with the world has told us that we're getting all this aid to

ukraine. the one thing we do know isn't that isn't, is providing a lot of profits to the military industries in, in united states, as there's no question that they're making a lot of money. asked us who, oh is that money remains to be seen. i mean, given that you were working with these institutions, whitby corporations, you don't sometimes have nightmares thinking the people are reading your work, including the new updated edition and reversing it. and they had to use it as an investment strategy, strategic bible, and therefore pick out what to make money off that whilst the corpses pile up in ukraine. thousands, hundreds of thousands mill. yeah. and well, yeah, no, there's a lot. i love history of us in all we gotta do is look at religions to see how you know the, the word of, of jesus, or mohammed or any other,

your world edge, the prophets, the guiding principles behind religions, how their words have been used to fight wars to incite wars and, and, and use to, to make money. okay. but we're not comparing you directly to them. i'm going to have a. yeah, let's make a bit of exactly what you see, mar, hers are great house or wherever you are. as you write these things yeah, yeah, i very aware that these things can be turned around and, and, and, and used against me or even used against the united states. and that's certainly not my intent. but my intent always has to support democracy. and i think democracy requires that we have a very critical analysis of everything that we're doing and always trying strive to get better. and right now we know we've got a system in the salience as climate change is income inequality globally. that's it

. but you know where we are on the brink of, of the major change and what it means to be humans on this planet. the question is, are we going to change? is, is the plan are gonna change us? because we're, we're abusing our system because we're over emphasizing materials to consumption and short term profits. or can we turn this around and transform the death economy into a life economy, john perkins, i'll stop you. the more from the author of the best selling confessions of an economic man after this break, ah ah ah, with ah,

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a september. the reason why you're bored yet, but i, but i am on that on the global lending issue won't be feasible mentioned on, on the yet could be a study sports took over the summer. you may he go to visit us? yeah, this is with the middle, but they say quiz just in the would go visit was to say good. ah, the u. s. grass nap last. it should be real pop yet, but it is way. imperial power is raining and you read the, you read different articles, different journals, and it's clear that they are aware that their power is waiting. they don't want to

push it. ah ah, welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the best selling confessions of an economic hit man author and former economic hit man himself john perkins. you know, although the media restrictions are as bad, where i'm speaking to you from. if i tell you and remind you what the world bank standard statement, the world bank promotes, long term economic development and poverty reduction. there's an answer to that one . the i m f promotes global macro, economic and financial stability and provides policy advice again and again. and you haven't changed the 1st edition of you just say the world bank of the i'm have don't, don't do that. i mean, you are state department perkins, the claims the u. s. national security agency recruited them to be an economic hit man. it appears to be

a total fabrication that's from the us state department and 20 or 6. what, how do you respond directly? these have been so many years of this that you've given up on it now. well, you know, wanting the near to major article that in that, looking at that exactly what the state department said and you know, totally doesn't create a state department. it was interesting to me and i was a website, the state department put up and i was the only person on the website. i was told misinformation pro site and it sold a lot of books for me to say, and i always wondered, so why are they saying this is obviously not true. they said the only job of the, of the national security agencies to encode and decode message as well. we know is a huge agency of the, probably the biggest buy agency in the united states. maybe in the world. it does a lot more than encoding and decoding messages. and everybody knew that. and i had

a television producer who came to united states several times to interview me. he was from athens, he did a program in athens, it was like 60 minutes of greece. i was told and he at one point he asked me said, you know why the state department did this? and i said, i have no idea selling a lot of books and it's obviously a fabrication. he said, well, i know after i did the 1st program with you, the us ambassador and athens called me into the office and, and chewed me out and said, you know, you put me in a very, very difficult position. because now all these people are reading this book, other diplomats and they're coming into my house and say, is it true? what's the, what's your position on this book? and he said, i go back to the state department and asked him, what does that position on this book? and he said, i'm sure diplomats around the world and we're having the same problem. and so the state department had to come up with a statement sort of in their diplomats, i could just say, well, i don't have a comment on it personally, but here's what, here's our official response. and it was really interesting to me because it did so

a lot of it's complex the opposite of what they wanted to accomplish. you quote from wiki leaks. i mean, julian hassan just being on this show general michael flynn. he's been on this year and i got to say a sergeant, lin, virtually annihilated after they talked about what was really going on or away from the press releases the state department away from arguable lies in their so called mainstream corporate media. sons', of course, arguably being tortured according to the un repertoire in london at the moment. this updated edition. and people must be wondering and p boss question, and you address it in this edition. how is it you are alive, given that you've blown the whistle on? some of the most horrific crimes that in a way are emblematic of west crimes. and you say in the book as one country after another in africa and latin america are in asia, is impoverished deliberately as strategy by the united states. in this book, you say you are targeted the,

perhaps your health perhaps to stop you at the u. n. and you have fears for your family. well, yes. and so when i 1st started to write the bark a long time ago, i contacted other people who had jobs like mine in the jackals. the people who go in, if, if the economic hit men are unsuccessful and overthrow governments of explorers that supervise the overthrow of governments and sometimes even assassinate their leaders as what happened to re and a and chilly in our benson. one amal and most the decking around and on and on. the faces emitted minute is things i contacted to some of these people. and immediately i received anonymous phone calls, threatening my life and threatening the life of my infant daughter. so i a n at the same time i was offered a very lucrative consulting job with it with stone, webster, and engineering company. and you had been major competitor, my, when i was chief economist at that at chelsea, maine and i had a quit that job who was writing this book,

and they offered me an extremely lucrative consulting position. i provided, i didn't write the book. they knew i was working on the book, so i stopped. but then after 911 i, i knew i had to write the book and i'm not saying there's any direct connection here at all that there isn't but, but when i went to ground 0 and looked down on that smoldering pit, i knew i had to come clean on what i had done, and i decided this to me wouldn't tell anybody it wouldn't contact anyone else. i would write a personal a confession. i wrote the whole thing in secret and then got it in the hands of the good new york agent who got it in the hands of publishing houses. and at that point, i figured it's my, my secure, it's my insurance policy. because you don't know anyone who might not like what i wrote and particularly in the, in the government would know that if something strange happened to me, the book would sell a lot more copies than the 2000000 term they sell that. and so with this,

i went forward and did that. so as regards jackals, an economic hitman, ben, um, what do you think the strategy is based on all your experience as regards opec? it was widely reported that saudi arabia and the united arbors didn't answer biden's phone call. when after what happened in ukraine, they were, as per usual, some might say in is in your book, you imply which all the look increase output reduce the prices of global prices of crude. and they didn't do it. will there be? and will it be easy for them to have another jackal economic hit man strategy against a mom had been salman and, and be said of the way. no, it won't be today because of china and. and because the world has changed so much, i, amongst other things over the, many of the moslem countries are very upset of us or what we did in afghanistan and

iraq. they don't see us as, as, as, as friendly to moslem countries. and china has, has become the major power. and so much of the world that no longer are we looked at as, as the great protector. and these countries know that we can't protect them against china. they know that we can't, that even russia at this point though, despite what we're doing in ukraine, this threat is very real and they're saying that the united states is, is over extended. so, for him away, i mean the jackal john. so he has no, he can only get when does that mean the jackal i'm speaking to you from dubai, are there by the americans coming for us? i think at this point it's, it's less likely than in the past, but certainly at least people now have some pretty good ways to protect themselves against jackals up at you know, in the jackals have been notoriously good at taking out governments in countries that have fairly weak governments either not so good at taking out countries where

you have a very strong government, like saudi arabia. and you know, the middle east of this point is, is it is a very different place or what it was back when i helped strike that deal in the early and mid 19 seventy's. well world is one place. well, what about back back home in the united states? cuz jr. widen talked a lot about things that are happening abroad. back in the united states, the big story for a while, was this balloon and then belatedly, i think it was to public pressure. arguably, people started talking about infrastructure, the ohio rel disaster. i know you say that the ukraine war, again, is diverting us from strengthening really since the global partners. but at the same time, why is infrastructure in the state that it is in the united states is and how is it related to this economic global economic hickman jackal strategy from washington? well, because united states,

a corporations can't make nearly as much money off doing infrastructure projects in the united states as they can make up, doing infrastructure projects in other countries. so when an economic hit man goes in and convinces the president of, of a latin american or an african country to take a huge loan from the world bank that they have to use to hire yours corporations. to bill infrastructure projects in their country. the company that builds the infrastructure projects, the u. s. corporation makes a huge profits. and of course, the military industrial complex does not benefit from interest search projects in the united states. the way that they'd benefit from what goes on in other countries . so there's a lot of pressure at the various highest levels of our government through lobbyist and consultants and advisors to expand all of our overseas efforts. and the other side of that is that as we expand these overseas efforts, we are also lining ourselves with countries who have resources that are

corporations, want oil, copper, cobalt. today we're looking to dig, do you know, to take better control a little lithium, which is, you know, so important to, to, to the green economy. and china has essentially, i think they control just about 90 percent of the lithium in the world. they want to be able and watch our louise asa and through the president of bolivia, it didn't work out so well for washington. when, after even morales where lithium is of course a in bolivia, we don't really have much time to be able to talk about noriega, who surprisingly comes out nicer than what might expect in the new updated edition . given the demonize ation or specific, the immunization of him in panama. but when it comes to panama, we know is lens. he was named in the panama papers that doesn't have to be talked about much nowadays. you say in this book that since the 1st edition, he becomes shocked by a blatant defiant and merciless and a donation of the banks. these big banks of the nato nations are you talk about the

corrupt, live or interest rate setting? and you don't think much of the 10000000000 fine on j. p. morgan chase barclays, bank of scotland. u b. s. freight guilty, deutsche bank to another $1000000000.00. you weren't satisfied the fact that all these banks were corrupt, admitted her up to me on that one. i wasn't satisfied the vine levels of fire. they paid their dues. oh well, isn't it funny that base get fine, but based on commit, don't commit crimes. banks don't get put in prison. banks don't, you know, they could find, but the people that actually committed the crimes, the ones who made the decisions, they go, scott free, and those are the people high positions and these banks. i, i think that's horrific that corporations in the united states have the rights of individuals, but they don't have the responsibilities and they don't have to answer to the same

laws. it's not the way a democracy should operate. john perkins, thank you. and the 3rd and latest addition of confessions of an economic hip and is that now if you're thinking of taking out and i am f loan, that's for the final show. this season will be back with a brand new episode on saturday. the 13th of may, but until then we'll be broadcasting some of your favorite shows all the series. meanwhile, and keep in touch by will a social media. if it's not sensitive in your country, had to watch. i don't going underground tv on rumbled up. come to watch new and old episodes of going undergrad, see very soon with for ah, needs to come to russian state total narrative. i've stayed, as i told them,

the most landscape div asking him then i can post them up for a group in the 55 when. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. when else with we will van in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state aunt, rush up to date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with the term strategic autonomy. sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term,

then we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person, after all, europe is no longer strategic or autonomy. ah, a tim told me the focus you can get there. we're having an issue. the, i mean, you're right on my like i said, the city that you're in was in place. i work with low startled iowa a total way. so you know, this place that people come from one water course close to them and the title i'm a had major was haggle it with you. list of lenders been morally support almost now than the the 2nd man us. what process i see dulcie as i'm normal kind of