we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer strategic or economist ah with phone, welcome to well to part. everything is true until it's false. that's the basic trajectory of scientific and social development playing out so dramatically in the world today. the american or western dream of prosperity based on excessive consumption and artificial assets is quickly losing its shine. but what is coming to replace it? well, to discuss that, i'm now joined by oscar pitcher

a bit of an economist and senior researcher at the institute of economic research at the national economists, university of mexico. professor gretchen's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. give up the, the station. now you began questioning the conventional framework for understanding international economy a long time ago. but i wonder if the last 5 years starting with the convent condemning and culminating in the recent changes triggered by the ukrainian crisis . i wanted to have surprised you in any way in terms of how things played out. no, this close, this was what i thought was going to happen. now. event moran black right. next. i think that when we speak over meant that girl, what you say show we are the same, something that it's very clear that is the west is protecting it. industries, games, language led by china is promoting food,

trade and promoting its technology. so what you have now is a world speaking to and it is clearly more deeply split into was this new america. so the fax, china, after the replacement of attack, somebody kind of attacks. and then it said that a waste near women between the show their ravia now the conversations of china with new grey to try to finish them or so i have any brochures that yes, we are having i think we're emerging into a new world where it is chinese economic mike that is viewing the world to stability. it is chinese economic might. that is gearing foreign exchange markets and they have developed

an international financial architecture that now has only to rational currency or the us as commodities market engine that has a payment system. and it is a parallel architecture for the western one. now professor. gotcha, let me stop you here before we go any further, let me ask you this question and i understand that it's an enormous one. but still, why do you think such a strong, powerful, and fortunate economic system as the american one hasn't found the way of sustaining itself sustainably, without excesses and without its current need to suppress with the development of others? no, not the economic leadership. on the corner were listed as a money order to go to my is not something further. it comes and goes.

it lasts a century, 2 centuries. in this case. it passed last century. it has lasted after world war 2 to around a year, 2000. i'm part of it has to do with i helped me aggression. there are a problems inside the bag that states made this thing know the guns and the killing . so children is thing. oh, having the record number this we're here called me and then mc. and after right now, what happened with tucker carlson because he couldn't he, he was lying on the news consistently when they're supposed to be the example. what's true. so what happened here is that the truth about this. moreover, and apparently the power that defending the truce, amir,

whatever buddies it gave them, that's what's been locked in the road. nobody believes very much in what the total slope is coming out to washington. now speaking about this chest coming out of washington, you just mentioned that economic theory presupposes that the centers of economic might a shifting intern. nothing is permanent. and there are many economists in the united states. so i assume they, they are familiar with that theory as well. why do you think the americans are so stubborn in trying to, ah, preserve their had gemini, both in economic, into political terms, while all the signs that are, that it is slipping away? why aren't they ins that trying to create the most the beneficial, transitory conditions for themselves? ah, which one is nobody likes to do? that's clear. i mean, the british loss because he had a war. essentially they won the war but lost the empire. the u. s. has not

lost it's imperial yet, but it is way imperial power is waning and you read you read different articles and if you're not here that where they are aware that their powers li, but they don't want to search. and what is also clear is that there is a lack of understanding on what's going on. i wrote charge mrs. yellows remarks the other day on the international court. i'm in china and i was a bit surprised to see that she thinks the huge sense of the number to conduct when for all of us, it is clear that they are walking into a session and that they are finding on the us dollar at the instrument of global trouble,

but that is being put into question by others. so i think i think there's a lack of gladly geek. i think there are new seem what has been there a strong boy which was thick. and what appears to be showing up now is again to start as ease. there are far more strong remedy and i fear products. now, you've written before that the united states has declared a cold war against china and a cold war, such a broad metaphor. what do you understand as the main means and the goals of that war and can it be decisively won by either of the sides? no, no, that's a, that's a no win situation. and the, the reason is the technological competition, the u. s. is in 1st, last so technologically and the president looking $0.10 something back 10 years

ago that they should not quit producing ships. he said it but the decision was this quit looks like chicks in china. and for us it's the software that matters. and what happened was, look, how nice i and this learned very quickly out to produce what they did to produce. and they did it faster and better. and that's the problem because the one you park is that the sighing comes from the us. or lurking comes from china. they were working together very well until the usaa wait a minute. they are with their wing and dazzling this war star. and they have the will. there is nobody, nobody can witness why? because they have to work to go whatever. now, if i understand their, your idea correctly, you believe that the idea that globalization is over and doesn't reflect the true

global reality. and it may be over for the united states, because it's often, oh, you know, for imprint substitution policies. but for china and other asian power houses, it's a, it's continuing and they're pursuing it eagerly. i wonder in the flavor if the character, if the needs of the east lad globalization are, are anywhere in any way different from are the ones we observed are as led by the west. well, i am studying both of them all lives are one to i want to rifle visa a larger book research. i'm because the freshman to go at the station meetings. the do have protection on the one side of the other side. what. how is an expansion? at expansion with st trade rules imposed by st. and the big of enter africa in other significant way. they have entered africa in the working in the energy bill. both are fossil fuel and renewable energy or

an it and, and they are, they have helped according the voice of america re book they got helped with the debt she to asian of the african countries in europe consult and have been he talk . so they seem to be promoting a global, you say, show, let bogan with their own groups and their, and of course as a reflection on their own interest. so it has yes and kinds of different logic. the logic that i see coming out on tying up a that's a working road i would speak now, here in a rough, rough position where there were there seems to be looking at is a renewable energy leadership which there and trying to place that in the work they, their big manufacture, the 1st step or 4 major change by the change of renewable energy,

solar way, c and felicity. and they all sunday that in they seem to be leaning in distribution of electricity. they seem to be buying up this electric distribution firms around the world. but basically, african american america and soccer. oh, the russian to, i mean, they're buying a lot of for russian energy sources. not leaving for the russia, even before that the addition of economic sanctions against russia over the ukrainian operation became the opportunity of a lifetime for china in terms of consolidating it's a is cern, financial i architecture. and it's hard to believe that the use policy makers would not have foreseen these type of secondary consequences, which are so detrimental to their own. the privilege,

why do you think they still move? they had and did it in such a blank way? they didn't see that there are 2 things lately, betsy in 2005. they did not see that shifting research and development into china was going to give the chinese an edge on think, well they thought they were holy methodology. and they did not understand it. chang lease capacity to absorb knowledge and transformer to deborah that was 2000. but they did not tear and now these will they burst good. the sanctions on the lang and then the quote assertion, minnesota and nothing much appear to show up i i a baby and they got really cornered those centers. they knew nothing there star that maybe there was somebody someplace that was going to

say, look, i have a currency, i have a central buyout. i can invent a payment system that they did not. i did not see when, when garage event that it's paid. but since the bigger well over many countries, pro conscious they did that, she, that also they could not imagine that chinese were going to do the same nor the speed with which the change center in the we can you look at what's happened with china. it with it's international connect architecture. they constructed a complete one in 7 years. that didn't go so i mean, the west took 50 years. i have to tell you professor, got attention that we have. we can take no more delays. we have to take a very short break right now, just like the chinese, but they will be back in just a few moments they tend. ah

ah ah, it's done with lord stream one and 2 were destroyed by great

britain. it's a tremendous opportunity to once and for all remove the dependence on russian energy. the warn you crane is all mistakes were made and i have been elected as a leader of my party, angel prime minister in poland to fix them with the face the highest taxation. still this year alone, we have provided 2300000000 pounds of military super bowl and we will do the same again. next year. i need to because i have to wait, wait a minute . ah, ah,

the me. i welcome back to the forest with oscar ogre techy economist, senior researcher at the institute of economic research at the national autonomy university of mexico. professor regard titian just before the break you, you mentioned the speed at which the chinese have been building their financial infrastructure. you also mentioned before that they seemed to be building a parallel commodities market that would be operating in the yawn. and that is serving gas, oil, grains, metals, et cetera. how much more china has to do to become truly immune to western pressure . and perhaps even all for that,

the unity to those who are sick of that i have the bruce and they can now offer nearly do the ref. turner measures what they can a further is having a very large she bring peach where they can also do is to broaden their international assurance or firms which they can go very quickly. i mean, they have the, are 5 largest bands in the world so they can do the same thing. sure. and with that, they have a complete international commercial. you also mentioned that efforts in consolidating the asian high oil market and the length to which they went in discussing this issue with middle eastern power is some of which are still putative american allies . i understand why the chinese would be doing that by what do you think is the arab interest, what is the interest of saudi arabia in joining hands with china openly?

well, we have several in the middle east. always. there are several programs. the 1st one was iraq. we all saw what happened. there was no need to do what the 2nd things we have all seen yara spring, and where black i sent. and so i think for the middle east, so conference they are taking their association with a yours with a pinch of salt. they were promised something with neither invasion on with europe, sleep and was come out. there's something over that is so there we have a major issue. the 2nd major issues, the u. s. s. and that relies. so to failure i think will the right result with only with this thing of the car, shogi murder in turkey. and then after that then it said well that,

that we need you to raise your oil price. and so garrison. oh yes. and you haven't barrel. nicely allenwood, eliza, look out for you. not long up for that one thing. the 2nd for the supposed missteps . the 2nd thing is, are the homes and mistakes with it are they have pushed, you know, they have agreed with it out. they have broken their deals with it. and the u. s. has shown us the world. it does not have a stable policy. the policies change with a put it with them. they agree they wish this nuclear agreement, they broke the agreement. they thought further, oh ah retaliation some then so it will be both down. and so the read the for one be some, are the owner or more inclined to have an agreement brokerage by china. does the

same agreement brokered by the us. and that happens, china gutted shells and lights and i know loyal from both countries, then it has its live, la, la boyle, russia. ah, it hasn't cleared my new look, a girl from senior. so it's pretty much pretty much a well in terms of oil supply and having built our commodity market in shanghai. what i was thinking and i might be low, maybe the chinese or by began to refine oil and extort we fight. in which case it would become the competition of the us cause leaning export good is divider soaked. that's what it looked like. i don't know is up let's. well why should they stop at dealing with raw materials?

now, you mentioned the technological ads that china has developed and how the americans were not able to foresee it. and i don't know if you would agree with me. i maybe i'm bias here, but i think the, the signs that used to come out of the united states technological science was not necessarily purely american. i mean for, for many dickens, the united states attracted the, the global technological talent with the promise of the american dream, with money, with values, with prestige. what have you, do you think china has something similar to offer or perhaps even to talk with the american offers? my question is that so far? it is chinese and list scientists doing so far that probably weighs yes. technician of the european economy. it is

possible that you will get your peons value to china to work and what we are now seeing. middle, sturdy, indiana, and pakistan east diabetes work in the us and they can work anywhere. so oh, i think that metal now let's talk about how these giants and by that i mean the united states in china positioned themselves. because if we just just oppose their official slogans of what washington and beijing offered to the world. the former talks about itself as a shining city on the hill, whereas the latter refers to humanity as a community of common destiny. and i think it has a very telling difference of focus me versus we. and i wonder if you think that the china can truly stay true to this plan of

common destiny, to refrain from using its increasing power too much and too much to its own advantage. i'm not sure if it will mature into that then so far what they appear to be doing is securing its pluses and that is secure where the state should and it's me and i anybody to organize the world around so far? no, that's really just my chiller as well. we maybe it's a matter of time. i don't know. or maybe it's a matter of i don't know that there that we'll get back to the scene. but what the inevitable is of the shift is happen. and we cannot deny that there is a ship boy arm and the we might not share a few things of the chinese,

but we don't share a few things on the american side. so we go, well, the menu that the way the world eats, making, i don't think i'm very good at them that are for learning and analyzing on a conscious history. because i know that they were very good students of the soviet system and they managed to on take some of the good things that they, when the soviets have not been able to use it the best way possible. so perhaps the chinese could learn the american history as well and the abuses of their merican economic system and political system for their own advantage. because after all it, so when, when the actual, when, when that can make their doris, system sustainable. and, you know, amicable to anyone in the world for the facts, china to happen completely. they start to become quotes user friendly to the global. so they, they, they must become user friendly. everybody must see them as another natural, this a main trading partner. not all this of main lender, not owned as the head, oak,

the global g to logical change, but then must see them separate. and so far i shall, you'd grocer, they are rather more senior stark nurse than the strengths that are at that shipped. but the metric maturity. can i also ask you a couple of questions about the american system which used to be a global dream? and as we discussed, it's in a deep crisis, not only internationally, but also domestically. when we look at the level of public, the state of infrastructure, social welfare, the level of crime, the level of addictions. what would it take if not, reform done at least to bring it to some sort of self sufficiency and balanced level? well, there are a couple of things. first, i think they're going to meet tennis. ronnie, on an external deficit of 6 percent of gp continue issue. that's wanting.

secondly, they need to produce more. yes. they need to produce more. they need to trade more . that means racing the levels or the p with the richness or better reducing the ent, priceless of their goods. it was it given to buy an apple telephone that it costs twice. when the chinese cell phone cost will clearly run to buy a chinese. so they need to, i think, look better what they are producing under cost of producing and look better at how they are going to we buy once their economy still to net complete gas and the cost

to the rest of the world. so that it is out of balance is that we are on adjusting with her growing international reserves to buy the treasury bonds, to finance of deficit, which is ridiculous. we should be growing more and world growth should be more balanced. and right now we are very, very biased, very bias we should, we should have a more equitable welders. yes, absolutely. and i think is biased not only to the rest of the world, but also to many americans. i'm sure you have many american acquaintances, and i think many americans don't feel that our system is treating them them fairly . now, given that we are entering the next presidential season right now, do you see any real potential in the system actually

reforming and solve given the candidates that have put the put the personalities on stage so far? do you see any understanding of what things really are within the american economy? well, the democrats believe they have a very dynamic economy. and that's the way they look at the world that and if they think that china is an anti competitor, they have a serious so and that has not changed. and i think that was the ellen's point the other day. and that was like out, it's point in her talk and the counselor were relations. so, no, i don't see get any change. a nice change trumps isolationism. won't lead them anywhere. it has never let them anywhere so far for you. so repeat from is responsible for the largest growth in us that in history. well,

the democrats also not far behind, but as you said before, you know, then the rest of the world has to mind its own business. and it seems that for the 1st time in many decades, we have alternatives so far. how do leave and lead leave, and hopefully that will remain his professor garcia has been great pleasure and great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for that urgent stewart and thank you for watching hope to see her again on the well to part. ah with mm ah

ah. ah, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you.