his art and mm welcome to was a part. everything is true until it's false. that's the basic trajectory of scientific and social development playing out so dramatically in the world today. the american or western dream of prosperity based on excessive consumption and artificial assets is quickly losing its shine. but what is coming to replace it? well to discuss that i'm now joined by oscar pitcher at the oven. economist and senior researcher at the institute of economic research at the national economists,

university of mexico. professor gretchen's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for the the nation. now, you began questioning the conventional framework for understanding international economy. a long time ago, but i wonder if the last 5 years starting with the comment from dining and culminating in the recent changes triggered by the ukrainian crisis. i wanted to have surprised you in any way in terms of how things played out. no, this was, this was what i thought was going to happen. now. event. moran law thinks i think that when we speak up for that girl, what do you say show we are saying something that it's very clear that is the west is protecting its industries. games, language led by china is promoting free trade and promoting its technology. so what you have now is

a world speaking true and it is clearly more deeply split into was this new american. so the facts, china, after the replacement of attacks america and that of the fact that they said that a waste near we met between this child ravia, now the conversations of china with the new crane to try to finish the war. so i have an impression that guess we are having, i think we're emerging into a new world where it is chinese economic mike, that is giving the world to stability. it is chinese economic might. that is gearing foreign exchange markets. and they have developed an international financial architecture

that now hasn't we did last year currency or the us as commodities market in john has a payment system. and it is a parallel architecture for the western one. now, professor, good to you, let me stop you here before we go any further, let me ask you this question and i understand that it's an enormous one. but still, why do you think such a strong, powerful, and fortunate economic system as the american one hasn't found the way of sustaining itself sustainably, without excesses and without its current need to suppress the development of others? no, not the economy leadership. and cannot but again, money, political to germany is not something permanent. it comes and goes a last offend jury 2 centuries in this case. it passed last century. it

has lasted the after world war 2 to around a year, 2000. part of it has to do with i have an impression. there are problems inside the states made this thing, no guns and the killings of children. this thing having the record number with me or called me and them it. and right now what happened with tucker carson, because he thought he was lying on the newest, consistently, when they are supposed to be the example of truth. so what happened here is of the truce a barrel. this no longer that are an apparently the power that he's sending the truce for me or whatever that is, it gave them. that's what's been lost in the road. nobody buildings very much in

what kills that is coming out to washington. now speaking about this truth coming out of washington, you just mentioned that economic theory presupposes that the centers of a can make my shifting, you know, and nothing is permanent. and there are many economists in the united states. so i assume they are familiar with that theory as well. why do you think the americans are still stubborn in trying to preserve that had gemini, both in economic and political terms, while all the signs that are that it is slipping away? why are they instead trying to create the most beneficial, transitory conditions for themselves? ah, one is nobody likes to loops. that's clear. erin and the british lost because he had a war. and essentially they won the war but lost the empire. the u. s. has not lost it's imperial power yet that it is. wing,

imperial power is ringing and you read you read different articles and from journals and it's clear that there they are aware that their powers lee, but they don't want to lose it. but what is also clear is a, there is a lack of understanding on what's going on. i grew charge her missus yellows, remarked yellow day ah, on the international economy and china. and i was a bit surprised to see that she thinks the u. s. as they now make a comment, when all of us, it is clear that they are walking through session and that they are finding on from the euro dollar as the instrument of global control. but that is being put into question by others. so i think i think there's a lack of low,

please. dick, i think they're losing what has been their strong voice, which was out on the peak. and what appears to be showing up now is some, again, this policies that are far removed from ricky and bay, i fear o back. now, i have written before that the united states has declared a cold war against china and a cold war such and brought metaphor. what do you understand as the mean and means and the goals of that war? and can it be decisively won by either of the sides? no, no, but so that's a no win situation. and the, the reason is the technological competition, the u. s. is in 1st lost it so technologically. and that the president of intense, sent something back 10 years ago that they should not quit producing ships. he said it,

but the decision was the squint. let's make chicks in china and for us it's the software that matters. and what happened was, look, how nice i and this learned very quickly out to produce what they did to produce. and they did it faster and better. and that's the problem because the one you park is that the sighing comes from the us. or lurking comes from china. they were working together very well until the usaa wait a minute. they are with their wing and dazzling this war star. and they have the will. there is nobody, nobody can. we does one because they have to work to go whatever. now, if i understand the, your idea correctly, you believe that the idea that globalization is over and doesn't reflect the true global reality. and it may be over for the united states, because it's often, oh,

you know, for imprint substitution policies. but for china and other asian power houses, it's a, it's continuing and they are pursuing it eagerly. i wonder in the flavor if the character, if the needs of the east lag globalization are, are anywhere in any way different from are the ones we observed. i as led by the west, but i am studying both of them all lives are one to i want to rifle. this are a large a book or something. i'm because the recommended go or the sation meetings that you have protection on the one side of the other side. what, how is an expansion and expansion with st. trade rules in post question and the big of enter africa in other significant way. they have entered africa in the working in the energy bill. both are fossil fuel out renewable energy, or an am they are they have helped. according to

the voice of america, re book, they got helped with the debt she to asian of the african countries in europe consult and have been he talk. so they seem to be promoting a global, you say, show, let bogan with their own groups and there, and of course as a reflection on their own interest. so if house yes and as a different logic, the logic that i see coming out from tying up that's a working road i would speak now. here in a rough rough session. where there were, there seems to be looking at is a renewable energy leadership which there and trying to place that in the work they, their big manufacture. the 1st step or thought, major change by the chains of renew entities. solar awaits, see, and felicity. and they all suddenly,

either in, they seem to be leaning in distribution of electricity. they seem to be buying up this electric distribution, the firms around the world. but basically african american america and south america. oh, the russian to, i mean they're buying a lot of, for russian energy sources. now, leading of other russia, even before that, the addition of economic sanctions against russia over the ukrainian operation became the opportunity of a lifetime for china in terms of consolidating it's a is cern, financial i architecture. and it's hard to believe that the use policy makers would not have foreseen these type of secondary consequences, which are so detrimental to their own. the privilege, why do you think they still move? they had and did it in such a blank way? they didn't see that there are 2 things lately, but in 2005,

they did not see that shifting research and development into china was going to give the chinese an edge on to willard. they thought they were close drury methodology and they did not understand the chinese capacity to absorb knowledge and transformer to deborah that was to those of them, but they did not tear. and now these will, they burst book the sanctions on the lang. and then they could assertion minnesota and nothing much a peer show up i, i and they believed they had really cornered those hunters. they knew nothing. they're stuck that maybe there was somebody someplace that was going to say, look, i have a currency, i have a central park. i can invent

a payment system that they did not. i did not see when when rashid bed, that it's paid. but since the liver, many countries grow countries, they did that she, that also, they could not imagine that chinese were going to do the same, nor the speak with which that chinese delivery can you look at what's happened with china is with it's international connect shorter to church, they constructed a complete one in 7 years. that's inc also, i mean, the wis took 15 years. i have to tell you, professor gar, attention that we have. we can take no more delays. we have to take a very short break right now. just like the chinese, but we will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah

ah ah ah, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, then we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer a strategic more autonomy. the me i welcome back to the forest with oscar ogre techy economist,

senior researcher at the institute of economic research at the national autonomy university of mexico. professor regard titian just before the break. you, you mentioned the speed at which the chinese have been building their financial infrastructure. you also mentioned before the they seem to be building a parallel commodities market that would be operating in the u on. and that is serving gas, oil, grains, metals, etc. how much more china has to do to become truly immune to western pressure and perhaps even all for that immunity to those who are sick of that having brucell, they can now offer unity due to western nor measures. what they can further is having a very large shipping peach where they can also do is to broaden

their international assurance or firms which they can go very quickly. i mean, they found the are 5 largest banks in the world, so they can do the same thing, the insurance, and was that they have a complete international financial. you also mentioned that efforts in consolidating the high oil market and the length to which they went in discussing this issue with middle eastern powers, some of which are still putative american allies. i understand why the chinese would be doing that by one. do you think is the arab interest? what is the interest of saudi arabia in joining hands with china as openly? well, we have several in the middle east always. there are several programs. the 1st one was iraq. we all saw what happened. clue us. no neat to do that work. the 2nd things we have all seen ye are expressed and we're

back, i said. and so i think for the middle leave, so conference they are taking their association with a us with a pinch of soc they were promised something with neither invasion on with yard sleep and was come out. there's something slow, but it is. so there we have a major issue. the 2nd major issue, the u. s. s. and that lies. so the failure, i think, will the right recently, are you with this thing or gashodi murder in turkey? and then after that, then it said well that, that we need you to raise your oil price. and so garrison. oh yes. and you have and they were nice to be and and with the wizard. okay. were you not long enough for that? one thing. the 2nd for that, but the supposed to receive. the 2nd thing is,

are the homes and mistakes with it are they had pushed, you know, they have agreed with it out. they had broken their deals with it out. and the u. s . has shown us the world, it does not have a stable policy. the policies change with a put it with them. they agree. they wish this nuclear agreement, they broke the nuclear agreement. they put further, oh ah retaliation some then but will be both down. and so really, for one reason or the other, we're more inclined to have an agreement brokerage by china. doesn't the same agreement brokered by the us. and that happens. china gutted shells. i liked and i know loyal from both countries, then a house. it's live like no boil from russia. ah, it hasn't cleared my luck,

a girl from celia. so pretty, pretty much pretty much able in terms of oil supply and having built a commodity market in shanghai. what i was thinking and i might be, well, maybe the chinese are going to begin to refine oil an ex door we fight, in which case it will become the competition of the us. cause leading export good is very low, spoke. so that's what it looks like. i don't know sometimes. well, why should they stop at dealing with the materials? now, you mentioned the technological ad that china has developed and how the americans were not able to foresee it. and i don't know if you would agree with me. i'm maybe i'm bias here, but i think the besides the used to technological science was with the promise of

the american dream with chinese and scientists doing so far that probably was yes. technician of the european economy. it is possible that you will get your peons lawyer to china to work and work we are now seeing either share or new business history. india and pakistan east side is work in the u. s. and they go on work anywhere. so i think that's a matter of fact. now let's talk about how these giants and by that i mean, the united states and china positioned themselves. because if we just juxtaposed their official slogans off what washington and beijing offered to the world, the former talks about itself as a shining city on a hill. whereas the latter refers to humanity as community of common destiny. and i think that's

a very telling difference of focus me versus we am. i wonder if you think that the china can truly stay true to this pledge of common destiny, to refrain from using it's increasing power too much and too much to its own advantage. i'm not sure if it will mature into it so far. what they appear to be doing is securing it's washers under is secure with a st. should it's me and i am going to organize the world around so far, though. that's going just material it well we oh, maybe it's a matter of time. i don't know. or maybe it's a matter of i don't know, but her that we'll get made to be seen. but what's the notable isn't the shift is

happen. we cannot deny that there is a ship going on and that we might not share a few things of the chinese, but we don't share a few things on the american site. so maybe that's the way the world is making a very good at that or for learning and analyzing other countries history because i know that they were very good students of the soviet system. and they managed to take some of the good things that even the soviet have not been able to use to the best way possible. so for have the chinese could learn the american history as well . and the abuses of the american economic system and political system for their own advantage, because after all, it's a win win the true when, when that can make the system sustainable. and you know, i'm a couple to anyone in the world for the next china to happen and they

have to become globes user friendly to the global. so they built a must become user friendly so everybody must see them as a natural. there's a main trading partner, not only is the main lender, not only the shadow, big lodging, the logical change, but they must see them as a friend. and so far, you brush or they are rather more seen as partners than this trends. that at that shipped, that's a metric maturity. can i also ask you a couple of questions about the american system which used to be a global dream? and as we discussed, it's in a deep crisis, not only internationally, but also domestically. when we look at the level of public, the state of infrastructure, social welfare, the level of crime, the level of addictions, what would it take if not, reform done at least to bring it to some sort of self sufficiency and balanced

level? well, there are a couple of things. first, i think they're going to meet tennis ronnie on external deficits. 6 percent of gdp continuous. that's wanting. secondly, they need to produce more. yes. they need to produce more. they need to trade more . that means racing. the levels of the p with the richness we're reducing the ent, priceless of their goods. it was it given to buy an apple telephone that it costs twice when the chinese cell phone cost will clearly have under by a chinese. so they've been, we've july saying look better at what they are producing under costs, whatever, producing and look better for how they're

going to we buy once their economy is still to net complete gas and the cost to the rest of the world that it is out of balance is that we are on adjusting to growing international deserves to buy the treasury bonds to finance of deficit, which is ridiculous. we should be growing more and world growth should be more balanced. and right now we are very, very biased. any bias we should, we should have a more equitable world. yes, absolutely. and i think it's biased not only to the rest of the world, but also to many americans. i'm sure you have many american acquaintances, and i think many americans don't feel that our system is treating them them fairly

. now given that we are entering the next presidential season. right now, do you see any real potential in the system actually reforming? and so i was given the candidates that have put, put the personalities on stage so far. do you see any understanding of what things really are within the american economy? well, the democrats believe they have a very dynamic economy. and that's the way they look at the world that and if they think that china is an enter competitor, they have a serious phone. so as that has not changed, i don't think it was yet in spite yellow. de albert was knocked out a boy inc or talk calculations. so i'm no, i don't see any change, an exchange or trunks. isolationism won't lead them anywhere.

hernandez, alpha, how to leave in that leave and hopefully that will remain good. his professor gressick has been great pleasure and great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very much for that surgery gilbert and thank you for watching hope to see her again on the world's apart. ah with mm ah ah

ah ah, a initial you want to pull up not to get a can use the put body when you do do or 2,

but you also still wish to done those a what i see the steam, the bus is the little gear motivation says, due to a ah, overnight artillery strikes by ukrainian troops leave to civilians dead down to others in russia's re else or whatever. and according to the local official for kias 1st nuclear power plant built by our russian company receives official status of the 2 countries leaders, a ration ceremony via video and also with

gunfire. flashes and earth strikes. mark a 3rd week of a security of course is the retina.