in conversation today, riser head, this is 24740 internet with with mm phone, welcome to well to part. everything is true until it's false. that's the basic trajectory of scientific and social development playing out so dramatically in the world today. the american or western dream of prosperity based on excessive consumption and artificial assets is quickly losing its shine. but what is coming

to replace it all to discuss that i'm now joined by oscar. got their chair, a bit of an economist and senior researcher at the institute of economic research at the national economists, university of mexico. professor gretchen's great to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you for the the station. now, you began questioning the conventional framework for understanding international economy a long time ago, but i wonder if the last 5 years starting with the convent dunning, and culminating in the recent changes triggered by the ukrainian crisis. i wanted to have surprised you in any way in terms of how things played out. no, this close. this was what i thought was going to happen. now. event marabella. next . look, i think that when we speak, oh, meant that girl. what did you say show? we are saying something that is very clear, that is the west is protecting its industries. the east language lead by

china is promoting through trade and promoting its technology. so what you have now is a world speaking to and it is clearly more deeply split into was this new american. so the tax china as the replacement of the tax america and that of the tax. and then it said that a waste near women between the ravia now the conversations of china with new grain to try to finish the war. so i have the pressure that yes, we are having, we're emerging into a new world where it is chinese economic might. that is giving the world to stability. it is chinese economic might, that is gearing foreign exchange markets. and

they have developed an international financial architecture that now has only to rational currency or the you own the commodities market engine that has a payment system. and it is a parallel architecture for the western one. now professor said, sure, let me stop you here before we go any further, let me ask you this question and i understand that it's an enormous one. but still, why do you think such a strong, powerful, and fortunate economic system as the american one hasn't found the way of sustaining itself sustainably, without accesses and without its current need to suppress the development of others? no, not the economic leadership. and cannot but again, money,

political to germany is not something permanent. it comes and goes a last century, 2 centuries in this case. it has lastly century. it has lasted after world war 2. though around a year, 2000. part of it has to do with i have the impression there are problems inside the states made this thing, no guns and the killings of children. this thing having the record number of with me or call them it. and right now what happened with tucker carson? because he, he, he was lying on the newest, consistently, when they are supposed to be the example of truth. so what happened here is of the truce a barrel. this no longer that are an apparently our,

that he's finding the truth for me or whatever that he's, it gave them. that's what's been lost in the road. know by the buildings very much in what terrace that is coming out to washington. now speaking about this truth coming out of washington, you just mentioned that economic theory presupposes that the centers of a cannot make my shifting, you know, and nothing is permanent. and there are many economists in the united states. so i assume they are familiar with that theory as well. why do you think the americans are still stubborn in trying to preserve that had gemini, both in economic and political terms, while all the signs that are that it is slipping away? why are they instead trying to create the most beneficial, transitory conditions for themselves? one is nobody likes to loops. that's clear. i mean, the british last because he had

a war. essentially they won the war but lost the empire. the u. s. has not lost it's imperial. yeah. but it is way me imperial power is raining and you read you read different articles and then from your notes here that there they are aware that there are powers lee. they don't want to search. and what is also clear is that there is a lack of understanding on what's going on. i wrote a charge mrs. yellows remarks the other day on the international court. i'm in china and i was a bit surprised to see that she thinks the huge sense of a number to conduct when for all of us, it is clear that they are walking into a session and that they are finding on from the us dollar at the instrument of

global trouble. but that mean put into question by others. so i think i think there's a lack of oh, politic, i think they're losing what has been their strong points, which will certainly pick. and what appears to be showing up now is some, again, this policies that are far removed from reality. and i fear of that. now, i have written before that the united states has declared a cold war against china and a cold war is such a broad metaphor. what do you understand as the mean and means and the goals of that war? and can it be decisively won by either of the sides? no, no, but so that's a no win situation. and the, the reason is the technological competition. the u. s. is in 1st last it's her technological leg. and the precedent up in town said something like 10 years ago

that they should not quit producing chips. and he said it but the decision was this quit. let's make chicks in china and chorus. it's the software that matters. and what happened was, look, shenice i and this learned very quickly out to produce what they did to produce. and they did it faster and better. and that's the problem because the money park is that the sign comes on the us, or lurking comes from china. they were working together very well until the usaa wait a minute. there wasn't there. we and that's why this war stuck, and they have nobody, nobody can. we, because they have to work together, whatever. now if i understand your idea correctly,

you believe that the idea that globalization is over doesn't reflect the true global reality. and it may be over for the united states because it's opted for input substitution policies. but for china and other asian power houses it's, it's continuing and they are pursuing it eagerly. i wonder in the flavor if the character, if the means of the east ladder globalization are any in any way different from the ones we observed. as led by the west, where i am studying better at the moment i want to, i want to write on the a larger book percentage. because the fact meant to go by the sation meetings, the protection and the one side or the other side. what you have is an expansion either expansion list re trade rules imposed by son. and they have entered africa in a very significant way. they have entered africa and they're working in the energy

field, both fossil fuel, renewable energy. and i mean, they are, they have helped according to the voice of america. they have helped with need dec situation of the african countries in 2022. so they seem to be promot in ago by the say, show that by them with their own groups and, and of course as a reflection on their own interest. so it has, yes, it has a different logic. the logic that i see coming out some technical debts are working . rosa would spit out here. no rock rats position where there were this sheet to be looking at is a renewable energy leadership, which they are trying to please the in the work they are big when you fracture the

1st step or hold major change by them. the chains of religious solar will see an trego electricity, and they also be in they seem to be leaning in distribution of the person. they seem to be buying up this electric distribution, the firms around the world. but basically, africa and duck in america and south america. oh, the russian to, i mean, they're buying a lot of for russian energy sources. thinking about the russia, even before that the addition of economic sanctions against russia over the ukrainian operation became the opportunity of a lifetime for china in terms of consolidating it's is cern, financial i architecture. and it's hard to believe that the u. s. policy makers would not have foreseen these type of secondary consequences, which are so detrimental to their own. the privilege,

why do you think they still move? they had and did it in such a blank way. they didn't see it that there are 2 things lately. patsy. in 2005, they did not see that shifting research and development into china was going to give the chinese an edge on think, well they thought they were like joly, that the college. and they did not understand a chinese capacity to absorb knowledge and transform it into a book that was 2000. but they did not see it. and now they, when they 1st put the sanctions on the lang and then they called the sanction venezuela. and nothing much appeared to show up. i think they believed they had really cornered those hunters. they knew

nothing there. stop that. maybe there was somebody someplace that was going to say, look, i have a currency, i have a central bag. i can invent a payment system that they did not. i did not see when, when garage invent that it's paid. but since the liver many countries glo countries, they did not see that one. also, they could not imagine that chinese were going to do the same nor the speed with which they're changing. so anyway, can you look at what's happened with china is with it's international finance architecture. they've constructed a complete one in 7 years. that's also, i mean, the west took 50 years. i have to tell you, professor gar, attention that we have. we can take no more delays. we have to take a very short break right now, just like the chinese, but they will be back in just a few moments. stay tuned. ah mm.

mm. for the term strategic autonomy. sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, they were forced to wonder if he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer strategic or autonomy. i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people.

a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such order that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to race trust, rather than fear i would like to take on various job with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot must protect his own existence with ah welcome back to well, the 4th with oscar touch here peruvian economist and senior researcher at the

institute of economic research at the national autonomous university of mexico professor partition. just before the break you, you mentioned the speed at which the chinese have been building their financial infrastructure. you also mentioned before the, they seem to be building a parallel commodities market and that would be operating in yawn. and that is serving gas, oil, grains, metals, et cetera. how much more china has to do to become truly immune to western prussia and perhaps have been offered that immunity to those who is sick. if you, bruce a beacon now offer you the do to to western rushers. what they can further is hiring a very large shipping teach. and what they can also do is and broaden their international insurance firms. i was kind of very quickly. i mean,

they found that far, 5 largest banks in the world, so they can do the same thing. sure. and with that they, her are complete, international commercial. you also mentioned that efforts in consolidating these and high oil market than the length to which they went in ah, discussing this issue with our middle eastern powers, some of which are still putative american allies. i understand why the chinese would be doing that by what do you think is the arab interest, what is the interest of saudi arabia enjoining our hands with china's openly well, we have several in the movies with there are several programs. the 1st loan was here. we also were happy with our clue us no neat to do the work. the 2nd things we have all seen your experience and wear glasses

and so i think for the middle research hundreds they're taking their association with the us with a pinch of salt. they were promised something with either innovation and with europe, sleep and was come out this something stobel that is so there we have a major issue. the 2nd major issues, the u. s. s. and that relies. so the failure, i think will the right results with you with this single because shogi murder in turkey. and then after that then it said well, but we need you to raise your price. and so garrison. oh yes. and you haven't been nicely allenwood wizard. okay. were you no, no, no, no, that was the 2nd for the supposed receive. the 2nd thing is, are the homes and mistakes with the that they have pushed, you know,

they have agreed with it out. they got broken their deals with it on and the u. s. has shown us the world. it does not have a stable policy. the policies change with a put it with them. they agree. they wish this nuclear agreement, they broke that an agreement. they thought further, oh, ah retaliation some then thought will be, and bulls eat on an solar radio for one reason or the other. were laurie clang to her an agreement brokered by china though the sin agreement brokerage bug in your us. and that happens, and china goddard, chill, a lifeline, a loyal from both conduce, then it has it's loud landlord oil and russia. an e classic globe minute ago from celia. so it's pretty much,

it was pretty much a walk in terms of oil supply and having built our commodities market in shanghai was i was thinking, and i, mikey, whoa, is a, maybe the chinese always us began to refine oil, an export we fido, in which case it would become the competition of the us. christine x worked good is vital spot. so that's what it looks like. i don't know the eclipse. no. well, why should they stop at the, and dealing with raw materials? now you mentioned the technological ads that china has developed and, and how the americans were not able to for, foresee it. and i don't know if you would agree with me. i'm maybe i'm biased here, but i think the, the science that used to come out of the united states technological science was

not necessarily purely american. i'm in for, for many days as the united states attracted then the global, technological talent with the promise of the american dream, with money, with values with prestige. what have you, do you think china has long something similar to. busy for oprah haps, even to top, the american offer my proof of news that so far it is chinese english scientists doing a little over, but probably with your segregation of the european economy. it is possible, doug, you will get your opinions, boy, to china, to work. and work we are now seeing either short, middle bit of history, india and pakistan east side is work in the u. s. and the go on work anywhere. so, oh, i think that the metroplex. now let's talk about how these giants and by that i

mean the united states and china position themselves. because if we just just oppose their official slogans of what washington and beijing offered to the world. the former talks about itself as a shining city on the hill, whereas the latter refers to humanity as a community of common destiny. and i think it has a very telling difference of focus me versus we. and i wonder if you think that the china can truly stay true to this plan of common destiny, to refrain from using its increasing power too much and too much to its own advantage. i'm not sure if it will mature into that then so far what they appear to be doing is securing explosives

and that is secure with a state she learned to me. and i am going to organize the world around so far, though that's really just mature is well we maybe it's a matter of time. i don't know. or maybe it's a matter of i don't know that there that will be made to be seen, but much inevitable. either the shift is happening. we cannot deny that there is a ship going on. and that we might not share a few things of the chinese, but we don't share a few things on the american site. so maybe that's the way the world these make. you know, i'm very good at that for learning and analyzing other countries history because i know that they were very good students of the soviet system. and they managed to take some of the good things that even the soviets have not been able to use to the

best way possible. so perhaps the chinese could learn the american history as well . and the abuses of the american economic system and political system for their own advantage, because after all, and so when, when the true when, when that can make the system sustainable. and, you know, i'm michel to anyone in the world for the facts, china to happen when they start to become blogs, user friendly to like drove us out. they build a must become user friendly to everybody must see them or not. natalie is a main trading partner. not only is the main vendor not owned at the head of the g, a logical change, but they must see them as a friend. and so far i felt the pressure they are rather more seen as partners than suppressed. that, that at that shipped the metric maturity. can i also ask you

a couple of questions about the american system which used to be a global dream. and as we discussed, it's in a deep crisis, not only internationally, but also domestically. when we look at the level of public dot, the state of infrastructure, social welfare, the level of crime, the level of addictions, what would it take if not, reform done at least to bring it to some sort of self sufficiency and balanced level? well, there are a couple of things. first, i think there economy cannot ronnie on an external deficit. 6 percent of gdp continuous. that's one thing. second, today, they need to produce more. yes. they need to produce more. they need to trade more . that means racing. the levels or the period the richness, or better reducing the ent,

priceless of their goods. it was it given to buy an apple telephone that it costs twice. when the chinese cell phone cost will clearly run to buy a chain. so they need to look better. what they are producing and the cost of producing and look better for how they are going to we buy once their economy is still to net complete gap and the cost to the rest of the world that it is out of balance is that we are on adjusting so we've her growing international reserves to buy the treasury bonds to finance of deficit, which is ridiculous. we should be growing more and world growth should be more balanced. and right now we are very,

very biased, very bias. we should, we should have a more equitable welders. yes, absolutely. and i think it's biased not only to the rest of the world, but also to many americans. i'm sure you have many american acquaintances, and i think many americans don't feel that our system is treating them them fairly . now, given that we are entering the next presidential season right now, do you see any real potential in the system actually reforming and solve given the candidates that have put, put the personalities on stage so far? and do you see any understanding of what things really are within the american economy? the democrats believe they have a very dynamic economy. and that's the way they look at the world that

and if they think that china is an anti competitor, they have a serious so, and that has not changed a lot. i think that was the ellen's point the other day and it was like out it's point in her talk and the counselor were relations. so no, i don't see get any change. a nice change trumps isolationism. won't lead them anywhere. it has not let them anywhere. so far for you, so reply, we are, trump, is responsible for the largest growth in us that in history. well, the democrats are also not far behind, but as you said before, you know, then the rest of the world has to mind its own business. and it seems that for the 1st time in many decades, we have alternatives. um, how do leaving bud leave and hopefully that will remain his professor greg, this has been great pleasure and great honor for me to talk to you. thank you very

much for that. or to the gilbert and thank you for watching hope to see her again on the world's apart. ah, with me. ah. with the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term,

that we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person, after all, europe is no longer strategic or autonomy ah, overnight artillery slides, why are you planning to leave to civilians dead and to other wounded in the russian border region of, according to the official i genuinely to please the biggest financial therapist in the ages. original bank. i have some choice words for americans currency and he says that the whole too much power and damages the global economy. a migrant desperate need. so i just.