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a little space each night. all right, so you guys don't talk to strangers. 7 i avoid noisy gatherings and rallies a marsh. we've eaten your colleagues and perhaps also your friends think you're guilty because you'll russian . a glad to with being a minute for a specific social with a

with hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, we're forced to wonder he is a serious person. after all, europe is no longer strategic for autonomy us with cross sucking strategic autonomy. i'm joined by my guess, alfred desires in geneva. he is an author and

a former un independent expert on international order in paris. we have john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy and in washington we cross matthew cross and he is director of academic transformation about way state university. i gentleman cross type roles and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you in paris. i mean, you and i have known each other and you, but on this program, as long as the french president micron has been in office and you and i have pointed out a number of times that entered dig gall trying to fight its way out of him. sometimes he gets de gaulle curious, but i don't take him seriously anymore because even when he says those kind of things the next day says something different, i think that is really emblematic of europe's place in the world today. go ahead, john. yeah, i mean, the big difference between a menu and michael and a charles to go live there are so many of them is that all would never have talked

about europe. european autonomy to gold talked about french autonomy and he understood that autonomy can only be national and that to any european dimension by definition was incompatible with autonomy. my colon doesn't understand that macaroni thinks that there can be such a thing as european autonomy. he believe all he occasionally, as you said in your question, p t, occasionally says that. but actually there are contradictions in terms. and we saw this, for instance, when he went to china because he took rosella from the line with him. that was supposed to show that he was coming as a representative representative of europe. but between him and no sla from the lion, they're a very substantial differences. she is much more atlanta cyst. i mean, he's pretty atlantis, but she's even more so. so what are him taking her to china showed was that europe reduces its own autonomy by trying to be

a permanent alliance because everybody pulls in different directions and the result is the lowest common denominator. and in addition to the fact of course, that as we all know, the european project, including the military dimension of it, is entirely an american creation and entirely under the control of the american. so these are just words and i've, i've used this quotation once before on this program, but i, i, i think one can repeat myself every, every other year or so. the problem got macklin is the same as a de gardener. deep down, he's very superficial. yeah. laugh on for, oh, i'll alfred, you know, i mean, and in trying to, you know, in most of the world are talking about multi polarity, are the rise of the global south, the global majority. and it seems like the french president and others like him and relying upon old tropes that really don't make any sense anymore. and nobody really takes any take seriously into more. for example, nato was expanded nato. it's more powerful. oh no. i think it just made washington

more powerful. not the alliance per se. so i mean, they all we are all chasing the wrong rabbits down the wrong rabbit whole alfred girl give her i don't, i absolutely agree with john. now i'd like to see the analysis of dr. cochran, but as the case may be from my perspective, as a former un staffer, and as a former wrap will occur, it is quite clear that the europeans live in their bubble. we are actually a small click the europeans and the americans, the global majority is against us and we are actually isolating ourselves even further. it's not just my role and here's, well, you know, n d class during in china. i think that the g 7 meeting now all the foreign ministers is actually hallmark all oh,

isolated basically we in the west are be salary. the rest of the world, the shrubbery, the belts and road initiative. these have either price that most countries in the world have refused to impose sanctions or russia, etc, etc. so it's a question of perception of reality. but in our analysis, in our self righteousness that's for exception of reality is totally distorted. and i don't, i'm not optimistic that is going to change any time. so i'd like to see the europeans realized that the united states is not. it's friend. the united states is not. and as of the united states is actually a lie of body. the united states interest, and those are the rpms, do not coincide, but again, there is an ally and for we leak, it does go inside. well, i mean,

if there were any kind of democratic impulse left in europe, we might see a different direction. but i'm not counting on that here. matthew, one of the thing you alper is pointing out real things. belts, road ok, trade diversifying from the dollar. but the europeans and the american talk about ideology all the time. and i can't make any heads or tails of what they're talking . i need a translator. i don't know what they're talking about, and that's why most of the world is turning away ukraine. that's your problem. you made it, you fix it. what do you want from us? oh, and we remember hundreds of years of you telling us what to do, but it didn't work out well for us. ok, i mean how tone deaf can you be? mathew, i what i love in the commentary that we've had so far is the fact that there are, there are pieces that we're touching upon. and i think really back up, for me, i'm not, as i won't say cynical, that meant that's too strong. but when micron talks about strategic autonomy, what amazes me is the fact that i think the united states has always utilized

strategic autonomy. if we really break down what strategic autonomy is in real terms, it what the united states doesn't like about micron using that term is the idea that your simply comparing it to use that bubble analogy that was just mentioned. these are power bubbles, right? these are bubbles of power that the united states controls and now micron would that one phrase strategic autonomy is at least winking at the idea that there could be a chinese power bubble that might serve interests in europe as forcefully or as powerfully as american ones are and that is always infuriated, the americans, the americans are the only ones. and i've always found this fascinating is the fact that they will live ideologically in terms of how they speak before the diplomatic microphones and how they act in quarters of power in other nations. capitals, but in terms of actual real term efforts, they're not, they will always follow what their national interests are,

but they don't want other countries to be able to follow the same. well, i mean, i think, i think, i think maybe in theory, but, i mean, john, i mean, you know, i don't want to have this turned into my favorite hobby horse, but north stream too. i mean, that's kind of a physical real thing. ok. that's being denied europe. ok, that goes beyond you know, double speak one in public, a one in private here. my point is john, here is that the europeans have given up almost all of the leverage. they have to actually have some kind of autonomy. john? well, i think that's because they're afraid. again, i've said this before on your show, they can see what the americans are capable of doing, including to them. and they are afraid that if they were to call the americans out on north stream, that there would be further attacks. so that's the reality of the alliance, sits in fact, not an alliance at all. it, sir, it's a mafia system of protection. and i think that that explains the extremely

dysfunctional behavior of european politicians. there's no other rational explanation other than that they are afraid. and you know, they're, that that's what makes all the talk of autonomy. completely bogus. sits the talk of autonomy and michael's mouth. on michael's lips is simply intended to convince a largely skeptical french audience, reveling a. we're seeing an incredible geopolitical shift within europe. thanks to american support from germany to poland. poland is now a main ally of the united states in europe. poland is the gas harb because it opened its norwegian pipeline the day after the north stream, too was blown up by the americans. poland once to recreate and indeed has in the form of some structures recreated a sort of fur into mari. i'm a sort of polish lithuanian commonwealth,

a sort of glassy against russia. poland has presented a 1.6 trillion bill for the 2nd world war to germany and so on and so on. and in that context of france is totally marginalized as it germany for that matter. so all this is simply intended to carol a increasingly skeptical french public opinion back into some support for the european project, which as everybody knows, is itself completely bogus. yeah, well, alfred, you know, it's interesting about what you can say and what you can't say. ok, there are plenty of people that would like to see more french autonomy, european autonomy, and i like the distinction that john is made here. but there's a lot of other people in the leaks that say, hey, we're pretty high in the pecking order in the empire. the things that go in grade for us, i don't mean a better box. she's pretty doing great in those paradigm. i mean, this is for me is one of the things that i want to talk about in the 2nd half the program is that so much of this is elite and ideologically driven alford before we

go to the break, go ahead yet democracy. if you ask the frank people who ask the german people, they will tell you they don't want that and they will tell you they want negotiation. they don't want to send more weapons to ukraine. notwithstanding. what do my grades in linmore go let go all or in know the crack. what algamite? a title, i speak with people, real people. and i don't find any one who's excited about sending more weapons on to ukraine or about joining the campaign against the china and giving, getting up on the one china policy. that's all extremely dangerous. and the europeans have to stay away from this. uh, tie one common group. i would propose referenda asked the oh i'm afraid alfred. oh, don't you know alfred, there's too much democracy in the weather is too dangerous for democracy. that's

why when the newest members of nato don't have referenda. no, no, no, because it's too dangerous here. gentlemen. i have to jump in here. we have to go to a short break. and after that your break, we'll continue our discussion on strategic autonomy staying with our team. ah oh, canada is outsourced, its foreign policy to washington. and washington's agenda is one of the global hegemony. washington will not tolerate and i think they're not even, they're not even subtle about this. you know, they will not tolerate a global rival. ah,

ah, welcome back to cross sac where all things are considered on peter labelle tremendous . we're discussing strategic autonomy. okay, let's go back to matthew in, in washington, matthew, before we started our recording here, i was talking privately with, with john and my kind of lamented that i, that myself and i think john included, or maybe all of us are forced to talk about politics. when most of us would love to talk about culture in society, and that's how i kind of look at these put these e leads here because they have cultural affinity, social affinities. when you listen to a european on a foreign ministers traveling, they talk about ideas. they talk about what kind of society they want and the, the, the, creating the heat, new human condition. they don't really talk about what's good for italy are good for him. netherlands, good for france, good for german,

they talk about themselves. they talk about their elite and their elite ideas, which of course are superior to the people that of bad that vote for them. go ahead, matthew. well, i think that's very true, but i also think that sometimes what's missed, especially in terms of the narrative that gets pushed in the united states, is that there is also a hierarchy within the elite itself. yep. and the americans push very hard to make sure everyone is very clear, that at the top of that elite hierarchy is the american elite, tal g for lack of a better term. and they want to make people understand. and that's why i come from a national security intelligence background. so i don't really look at it ideation only when that when micro talks about strategic autonomy, i see it much more from the practical reality of saying, we're not comfortable with how the united states has largely basically through this conflict and ukraine. told all of europe, where else are you going to go? you have us and you have no one else. there is no other legitimate idea. there is no other legitimate alliance that you can rely on. and therefore,

he's manipulating the phrase almost to me in a terminal, almost making it de facto like classical neutrality, which is i'm going to pursue our interests wherever they may lead us. and, and i'm not automatically aligning with you on every single issue, just because you're at the top of data lead pyramid. that's what i think what infuriates the american soma. and, well, john, that's kind of like from the soprano, as you know, you had to bite me ministration, say, as a kind of a nice presidential policy out there in france. you know, would be a pity if something happened to it. i mean this is, this is exactly what it is. i do agree with matthew, that is very high article. everything is high article, okay, everything. and, but, i mean, but what i, what i find fascinating and deplorable is that there are so many people that will bow down to this hierarchy and think it's a good gig for them. i mean, just because you're prime minister of a european country, i thought the end of your career, but just the beginning. okay. i mean it's a,

it's all a towards a griff. okay. and you get away with it by siding with, you know, the right side of history, the great americans, you know, a liberalism, they have all of these covers for their own self interest because dealing with the nitty gritty of fixing rhodes and having water quality. that's boring. john, well again, i think the concept of ideology that you introduced or in your questions earlier is very important. you know, 20 years after the end of the, after the invasion of iraq. it seems as if george w bush is we're still in power. you're either with us or against us, you know, there's no, there's no concept anymore in the western mind set for negotiation for diplomacy, for compromise. instead, all the strategic documents, for instance, of nato itself are indeed formulated in highly ideological terms. there's a lot of stuff about values. there's a lot of stuff authoritarian regimes which somehow threaten us and so on. and

michael, of course, made his remark partly because he wants to sell a lot of our bosses to china. and so he was trying to suck, not chinese opinion or wishes, which is ultimately fair enough. but the fact is that he himself has gone far too far down the ideological writ, able to speak about, or any kind of strategic autonomy with any, any conviction. and, you know, you said you wanted to talk about society and culture instead of talking about politics existed in the soviet union. yeah. the communism wherever the associated values him back or of course himself is of absolute pure crawl. those venues, i'm sure he is, his checks or cash to all the crowd aim was cash. my check that we have to find a ukrainian version, cassie, any tools or any ideas or a car. dre they can actor up his straight jacketed self to washington. that's not a bad on china's initiatives. i mean piece is breaking out all over the place 3. i

would like to be on. i'd like to be on the side a piece, alfred foundation. they had not realized that we are sell, belton road initiative and everything else, the passing of those. and that includes switzerland where i li, is been main, street washing indoctrination and to book for, for what we learn in that this dopey and i news and counter punch and prove out and r p and z and. and asia are way to get the information. i get different narrative and that's all they get. and that is the problem. if you leave me as a matter of faith that we are the good guy. i mean, we have locked ourselves into this, pending themselves into a corner. matthew, i want to take advantage of it if you want on these document weeks, what do you make barret tibbs change perspectives on the crane and other things li,

retired, and most of this kind of scratch their heads over. what do you the line of work? this is sort of occupying the front end of the desk. some people are fascinated by it. there are practical aspects that probably, i think it is starting to show some regular clinical, regular citizens and appearances. we have far too many people that get clarence's entities and we're seeing because of who did the leaks and why did this kid get these kinds of documents? i think they are real because there is people to walk with security clearances in the united states and not all of them are so many documents that get classified in order to process them. we want to push back on is the idea of just how powerful were these. but the idea that, well, i don't know if taiwan is ready for it could end up facing real start. well, okay, well matthew leanne, you know, she said, if you really put your nose to the grindstone and look at all, you know, the leonard is some kind of splash. okay, what kind of ship gears could almost running out of time?

well, i'm afraid, i think france is no different from anywhere else. i think there is a mass media problem that alva alfred design mentioned. and while there may be a higher degree of understanding for russia and france than in other countries, i don't think france is substantially different than the worst predictions have not come true. i have to say that haven't been power cuts in france. they haven't been, there hasn't been serious hardship just as the west. prof. predictions haven't come through and people instead are worried about, you know, pension reform. as you said, the ukraine thing is not really at the top of the agenda at the moment. it's dragging on and i think that's probably part of russia's i've been strategy. i think russia knows that they will be wor, fatigue. yeah, pretty. and if not already, all of the nay sayers that have had over the last 15 months. i've said the same thing here. there they do different size, have different agendas and time frames who's got the cox and who's got the time or a gentleman. that's all the time we have. i want to take my guess in paris,

switzerland, and in washington, and thanks. so our viewers for watching us here at ortiz see an exam, remember, cross stuck rules ah ah ah. in the $22022.00 outraged orthodox christians confronted ukrainian security service offices, locking entrances and exits to keep the oldest monastery. they were looking for alleged russian spies among the monks. we mean dealer seeming or perform a reason for the brutal crack down one church. his parishioners said, song, a song about russia. ah,

it's wrong been reason enough to condemn any orthodox christian attack in prison and even kill them. russia, what i knew rush up on you to pick it up when you love store and you, when you start throw off slider venue in your store. thought i shoot you a new bomb. i used to miss dog with i may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities. another comes the united states of america is different wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with a bite about it all ready?

basie. so the city, if you draw the look at the incentives and we figured a few color revolutions is one among several meanings to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the hell of u. s. weston economic interest. people think that it, i didn't that he did what everybody did them. okay. yeah. doing training coral activate sol. suite. that's a little bit soft. i mean, you can do the final goal of these thing. revolutions to ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. ah, headline stories this, our massive stock pile of ukrainian on t or munition is reportedly destroyed in a powerful explosion. multiple missiles,

structure, witness and major cities across the country. also ahead on the west again. well camouflaged stands a d a r t follows a russian artillery crew on the front lines in the pop up for key areas off. don't know the importance of russian oil reach all time highs. the south asian country has now become the largest supplier of crude to the european union.