[000:00:00;00] thing as the war in iraq became more costly and unpopular among us citizens, the new president promised to end military operations in the country. i've chosen a timeline that will remove our combat brigades over the next 18 months. so let me say this as plainly as i can. by august 31st, 2010. our combat mission in iraq will end the law of combat troops left in december 2011, ending a campaign, the cost the lives of more than $4000.00 us soldiers. but the story didn't end there. islam excite a militant g. how this group emerged in the chaos in 2014, quickly sweeping across the country

with a mental thing to rise. any slamming state made the woods at the walls initiate to back in 2003 doc. the ironic ah, good battle of iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on september, the 11th 2001 and still goes on before long. you as truthful back on the

ground, i felt kind of fight was defeated. but at the huge cost, the civilians from coalition air strikes to the battle of mosul, where thousands were killed. as the city was flattened, that death was 6. people had one daughter who was much relieved in that house after the as tracks. i just couldn't leave there anymore. my house's entirely destroyed my daughter, died in it. ah mac that alysia a main problem now is clearing the areas the body, scattered everywhere them over more than $60000.00 civilians died in the next stage of the conflict. the rockwall was justified by the alleged presence of w. m. d's, despite repeated warnings from inspectors. unintelligible services to the country.

in january, 2004, the head of the iraq survey group charge, finding the weapons resigned, offered admitting failure. now, 20 years off to george bush claim victory, u. s. troops remain in the country, and iraq is still fighting a nicely insurgency. while the countries natural resources continue to be plundered, the war i see that line was polluted on, want turned out to be a hollow promise of liberation and led to decades of turmoil. you can delve into our special project war of terror. suppose in the u. s. roll and the devastating consequences for the oil rich millison country on our t dot com. and of course our social media channels will be back at the top of the hour. we have to see them. ah

ah ah ah ah. hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle . the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, that we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person, after all,

europe is no longer strategic or autonomy this cross sucking strategic autonomy. i'm joined by my guess, alfred desires in geneva. he is an author and a former you an independent expert on international order in paris. we have john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy. and in washington we cross matthew crossed and he is director of academic transformation about we state university. i gentleman crossed sack rose in effect, that means you can jump any time you want, and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you in paris. i mean, you and i have known each other knew, but on this program, as long as the french president micron has been in office and you and i have pointed out a number of times that enter dig gall trying to fight its way out of him. sometimes he gets de gaulle curious, but i don't take him seriously anymore because even when he says those kind of things the next day says something different, i think that is really emblematic of europe's place in the world today. go ahead, john. yeah, i mean, the big difference between a menu and michael and

a charles to go live there are so many of them is that all would never have talked about your european autonomy to gold talked about french autonomy and he understood that autonomy can only be national and that to any european dimension by definition was incompatible with autonomy. my colon doesn't understand that michael thinks that there can be such a thing as european autonomy. he believe all he occasionally, as you said in your question, p t occasionally says that. but actually there are contradictions in terms, and we saw this, for instance, when he went to china because he took rosena from the line with him. that was supposed to show that he was coming as a representative representative of europe. but between him and also from the lion, there are very substantial differences. there she is much more atlanta cyst. i mean, he's pretty atlantis, but she's even more so. so what her, him,

taking her to china showed was that europe reduces its own autonomy by trying to be a permanent alliance because everybody pulls in different directions and the result is the lowest common denominator. and in addition to the fact of course, that as we all know, the european project, including the military dimension of it, is entirely an american creation and entirely under the control of the american. so these are just words and i've, i've used this quotation once before on this program, but i, i, i think one can repeat myself every, every other year or so. the problem got macklin is the same as a de gardener. deep down, he's very superficial. yeah. laugh on for, oh, i'll alfred you know, i mean, and in trying to, you know, in most of the world are talking about multi polarity, are the rise of the global south, the global majority. and it seems like the french president and others like him and relying upon old tropes that really don't make any sense anymore. and nobody really

takes any take seriously into more. for example, nato was expand, it may tell it's more powerful. no, i think it just made washington more powerful. not the alliance per se. so i mean, they all we are all chasing the wrong rabbits down the wrong rabbit whole. alfred. if you are to give her i don't, i absolutely agree with john. now i'd like to see the analysis of dr. cochran, but as the case may be from my perspective, as a former un staffer, and as a former wrap will occur, it is quite clear that you are a p and live in there bubble. we are actually a small click the europeans and the americans, the global majority is against us and we are actually isolating ourselves even further. it's not just my role and here's, well, you know, n d class during in china. i think that the g 7 meeting now of the foreign

ministers is actually hallmark all oh, isolated basically we in the west are be savvy. the rest of the world, the salary, the belt and road initiative, the chevy. the fact that most countries in the world have refused to impose sanctions on russia, etc, etc. so it's a question of perception of reality. but in our analysis, i'm in our self righteousness. that's a perception of reality is totally distorted. and i don't, i'm not optimistic that is going to change any time soon. i'd like to see the europeans realize that the united states is not. it's friends. the united states is not an asset. the united states is actually a lie of body. the united states interests and those are the europeans, do not coincide, but again,

there is an ally and poorly leak. it does coincide. well, i mean if, if there were any kind of democratic impulse left in europe, we might see a different direction. but i'm not counting on that here. matthew. one of the thing in alpha was pointing out real things belt road. ok. trade diversifying from the dollar. but the europeans and the americans hack about ideology all the time and i can't make any heads or tails of what they're talking. i need a translator. i don't know what they're talking about, and that's why most of the world is turning away ukraine. that's your problem. you made it, you fix it. what do you want from us? oh, and we remember hundreds of years of you telling us what to do, but it didn't work out too well for us. ok, i mean how tone deaf can you be? mathew, i what i love in the commentary that we've had so far is the fact that there are, there are pieces that we're touching upon. and i think really back up for me, i'm not as i won't say cynical,

that meant that's too strong. but when macro dox about strategic autonomy, what amazes me is the fact that i think the united states has always utilized strategic autonomy. if we really break down what strategic autonomy is in real terms, it what the united states doesn't like about micron using that term is the idea that your simply comparing it to use that bubble analogy that was just mentioned. these are power bubbles, right? these are bubbles of power that the united states controls and now micron would that one phrase strategic autonomy is at least winking at the idea that there could be a chinese power bubble that might serve interests in europe as forcefully or as powerfully as american ones are and that is always infuriated, the americans, the americans are the only ones. and i've always found this fascinating is the fact that they will live ideologically in terms of how they speak before the diplomatic microphones and how they act in quarters of power in other nations. capitals,

but in terms of actual real term efforts, they're not, they will always follow what their national interests are, but they don't want other countries to be able to follow the same. well, i mean, i think, i think, i think maybe in theory, but, i mean, john, i mean, you know, i don't want to have this turned into my favorite hobby horse, but north stream too. i mean, that's kind of a physical real thing. ok. that's being denied europe. ok, that goes beyond you know, double speak one in public, a one in private here. my point is john, here is that the europeans have given up almost all of the leverage. they have to actually have some kind of autonomy. john? well, i think that's because they're afraid. again, i've said this before on your show, they can see what the americans are capable of doing, including to them. and they are afraid that if they were to call the americans out on north stream, that there would be further attacks. so that's the reality of the alliance, sits in fact, not an alliance at all. it, sir, it's

a mafia system of protection. and i think that that explains the extremely dysfunctional behavior of european politicians. there's no other rational explanation other than that they are afraid. and you know, they're, that that's what makes all the talk of autonomy. completely bogus. sits the talk of autonomy and michael's mouth. on michael's lips is simply intended to convince a largely skeptical french audience of the continuing usefulness of the european union. and to pretend that somehow france can protect herself as a world power within that framework. in reality, of course, even those old dreams from the 19 fifties and sixties are unraveling. or we're seeing an incredible geopolitical shift within europe. thanks to american support from germany to poland. poland is now

a main ally of the united states in europe. poland is the gas harb because it opened its norwegian pipeline the day after the north stream, too was blown up by the americans. poland once to recreate, and indeed has in the form of some structures recreated a sort of for into mario. i'm a sort of polish lithuanian commonwealth, a sort of glassy against russia. poland has presented a 1.6 trillion bill for the 2nd world war to germany and so on and so on. and in that context of france is totally marginalized as it germany for that matter. so all this is simply intended to a course, oh, a increasingly skeptical french public opinion, back into some support for the european project, which as everybody knows, is itself completely bogus. yeah, well alfred, you know, it's interesting about what you can say and what you can't say. okay. and there are plenty of people that would like to see more french autonomy, european autonomy. and i like the distinction that john has made here. but there's

a lot of other people in the elite that say, hey, we're pretty high in the pecking order in the empire. if things are going great for us and it, and only to better bako, she's pretty genuine. great in this paradigm. i mean this, this for me is one of the things that i want to talk about in the 2nd half the program is that so much of this is elite and ideologically driven, alfred before we go to the break, go ahead. yet democracy. if you ask the frank people who ask the german people, they will tell you they don't want that and they will tell you they want negotiation. they don't want to send more weapons to ukraine. notwithstanding. what do my grades in linmore goal if he go all or in another crank with algamite, a title, i speak with people real people. and i don't find any one who's excited about sending more weapons on to ukraine or about joining the campaign against the china giving,

getting up on the one china policy that's all extremely dangerous. and the europeans have to stay away from this guy. one of conundrum. i would propose referenda asked the oh oh i have fred alfred. oh, don't you know alfred, there's too much democracy in the weather is too dangerous for democracy. that's why when the newest members of nato don't have referenda. no, no, no, because it's too dangerous here. gentlemen. i have to jump in here, we have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on strategic autonomy stake with our team. ah oh, canada is outsourced,

its foreign policy to washington. and washington's agenda is one of global hegemony . washington will not tolerate, and i think that they're not even, they're not even subtle about this. they will not tolerate a global rival. ah ah, welcome back to cross sac where all things are considered on peter labelle tremendous . we're discussing strategic autonomy. okay, let's go back to matthew in, in washington, matthew, before we started our recording here, i was talking privately with, with john and my kind of lamented that i, that myself and i think john included, or maybe all of us are forced to talk about politics. when most of us would love to talk about culture and society, and that's how i kind of look at these put these e leads here because they have cultural affinity,

social affinities. when you listen to for european on a foreign ministers traveling, they talk about ideas. they talk about what kind of society they want and the, the, the, creating the heat, new human condition. they don't really talk about what's good for italy are good for him. netherlands, good for france, good for german, they talk about themselves. they talk about their elite and their elite ideas, which of course are superior to the people that of bad that vote for them. go ahead, matthew. well, i think that's very true, but i also think that sometimes what's missed, especially in terms of the narrative that gets pushed in the united states, is that there's also a hierarchy within the elite itself. yep. and the americans push very hard to make sure everyone is very clear, that at the top of that elite hierarchy is the american elite, tal g for lack of a better term. and they want to make people understand. and that's why i come from a national security intelligence background. so i don't really look at it ideation only when it,

when micro talks about strategic autonomy. i see it much more from the practical reality of saying, we're not comfortable with how the united states has largely basically through this conflict and ukraine. told all of europe. where else are you going to go? you have us and you have no one else. there is no other legitimate idea, there is no other legitimate alliance that you can rely on. and therefore, he's manipulating the phrase almost to me in a terminal, almost making it defacto like classical neutrality, which is i'm going to pursue our interest wherever they may lead us. and i'm not automatically aligning with you on every single issue, just because you're at the top of that ally pyramid. that's what i think what infuriates the american soma. and, well, john, that's kind of like from the soprano and, you know, you had to buy administration say, as a kind of a nice presidential policy out there in france. you know, would be a pity if something happened to it. i mean this is did, this is exactly what it is. i do agree with matthew,

that is very high article. everything is high article, okay, everything. and, but, i mean, but what i, what i find fascinating and deplorable is that there are so many people that will bow down to this hierarchy and think it, it's a good gig for them. i mean, just because your prime minister of a european country, i thought the end of your career, not just the beginning. okay. i mean, it's a, it's all a towards a griff. okay. and you get away with it by siding with, you know, the right side of history, the great americans, you know, a liberalism, they have all of these covers for their own self interest because dealing with the nitty gritty of fixing rhodes and having water quality. that's boring. john, well again, i think the concept of ideology that you introduced in your questions earlier is very important. you know, 20 years after the end of the, after the invasion of iraq. it seems as if george w bush is we're still in power. you're either with us or against us, you know, there's no,

there's no concept anymore in the western mind set for negotiation for diplomacy, for compromise. instead, all lee strategic documents, for instance, of nato itself, are indeed formulated in highly ideological terms. there's a lot of stuff about values. there's a lot of stuff authoritarian regimes which somehow threaten us and so on. and a michael, of course, made his remark partly because he wants to sell a lot of air buses to china. and so he was trying to suck, not chinese opinion, or which is, which is ultimately fair enough. but the fact is that he, himself has gone far too far down the ideological re, yet able to speak about or any kind of strategic autonomy with any, any conviction. and, you know, you said you wanted to talk about society and culture instead of talking about politics. but one of the depressing things about life i would say in europe to day is that there aren't any cultural or social spheres left anymore,

which are independent of politics. you know, let him is. lensky speaks at the vienna venice be another. he speaks at the cannes film festival. he speaks at the frankfurt book for though there are, there are no, he speaks of the glastonbury festival. there are no cultural events left where politics does not intervene, or for that matter where l g b, t writes, or whatever intervene as well. there are no more autonomous fields left and therefore we are in europe, in a situation very similar to that which existed in the soviet union. yeah. the communism where everything had to be brought back to marxism. in europe today, everything has to be brought back to, to postmodernism and to the associated values and back or of course himself is or that pure a product of that, of that, of that of that phenomenon. yeah, i'm not worried about the landscape hearing and all those venues. i'm sure he is his checks or cash to all across europe without a problem. ok, remember chang? i shall remember his nickname with cash. my check that we have to find the ukranian

version. cash. my check, i'll alfred, you know, we're very pessimistic here right now because i don't see any tools or any ideas or a cod dri. they can actually shake things up. i say, it really seems that europe is a straight jacket itself to washington. that's not a bet i would take, i mean, because if you look at the middle east, by china initiatives, i mean pieces breaking out all over the place and the americans have no control over apparently at all i, i see which the arc of history i would like to be on i'd like to be on the side a piece alfred. well on. * course, but it's amazing that all our thing packs really came. so the heritage foundation, now they have not realized that we ourselves, i cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and that the belt and road initiative and everything else is passing over. now the main problem that i see in

the west, and that includes switzerland, where i lay, is the main stream media. the mainstream media is brainwashing, is indoctrination. and 2 books come to my grade, new world of al those hopefully out of course $94.00 of george orwell. we live in that this dopey and i don't see any awakening right now. god, there is something called consort your news and counter punch and prove out. and the real news network on the intercept time god, there are still sputnik and r p and z and, and asia times and the mobile times, et cetera. but that is for us, will actually go out on our way to get the information and get different narratives and try to evaluate what the masses they go during the television on their watch,

cnn. and that's all they get. and that is the problem. if you have a democracy where the entire population has been indoctrinated into believing as a matter of faith, that we are the good guys believing that we have the right to do what we're doing. i mean, we have locked ourselves into this situation, which is very difficult to get out. yes, yes, absolutely. and pending themselves into a corner, matthew, i want to take advantage of your past professionalism here. can you comment if you want on these document weeks? what do you? because it's very interesting how some are using it to, to shift at narratives to change perspectives on the crane and other things like that. and i've talked to a lot of people in the intelligence community, mostly retired, and most that were just kind of scratch their heads over. what do you think of it? this is obviously from,

from my line of work. this is sort of occupying the front end of the desk. i think it's the plastered everywhere within the united states and people are fascinated by it. there are practical aspects that probably go beyond what we're talking about or maybe seems small potatoes in the bigger discussions we're having right here. but i think it is starting to show some regular clinical regular citizens in america. that there is definitely a problem in the united states in terms of the, the categorization of clearances. we have far too many people that get clearances, security clearances within our, within our governmental military intelligence communities. and we're seeing because of who did the leaks and why that person's as well. ok, matt. matthew, let me, let me jump to the chase here. how did this kid get these kinds of documents that? well, that's the question and and are they real ok? i think they are real ok because people too often want to take the hollywood version. they get fed

a lot in terms of the intelligence community. we have 1400000 people with curity clearances in the united states. and not all of them are senior officials with decades of experience. we have too many documents that get classified in order to process them. we end up with people like the individual that did the leaking with access to documents that now the thing i want to push back on is the idea of just how powerful were these documents that he actually leaked onto his game or site. right? i mean, there were some embarrassing things there to be sure. but the idea that, well, i don't know if taiwan is ready for a chinese encouraging militarily. or if we don't keep doing what we're doing and ukraine, ukraine could end up facing real star mapping. you bring up a very secret, you bring up a very interesting point because the discussions i've had with people is that if you really put your nose to the grindstone and look at all the you way, ye, for example, like that. none of these documents say anything particularly new. ok,

but they're being presented is some kind of splash. ok. what kind of shift gears almost running out of time here. but john, what is the feeling in france? i mean, we had this pension reform here. i suppose that you know, i'm a chrome did pull lead to gall and dis, you had got it done his own way here. what kinds of pressures are people? what kind of pressures are people feeling? is this conflict in ukraine continues when the prospects are very bleak for nato. we, irrespective of all the propaganda that people are being fed, 45 seconds to my friend. well, i'm afraid, i think france is no different from anywhere else. i think there is a mass media problem that alva alfred designs mentioned. and while there may be a higher degree of understanding for russia and france than in other countries, i don't think france is substantially different. the worst predictions have not come true. i have to say that haven't been power cuts in france. they haven't been, there hasn't been serious hardship just as the west pred predictions haven't come

through come true for rush or either. right. so it way it's off the news and people instead are worried about, you know, pension reform, as you say, the ukraine thing is not really at the top of the agenda at the moment. it's dragging on and i think that's probably part of russia's ivan strategy. i think russia knows that they will be will fatigue. yeah, pretty good if not already all of the nay sayers that have had over the last 15 months. i've said the same thing here, there that different size have different agendas in time frames, who's got the cox and who's got the time or a gentleman. that's all the time we have. i want to take my guess in paris, switzerland and in washington. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time. remember,

cross knuckles with ah, a massive. so of the cleaning add, i mean, is report to be destroyed in a powerful explosion as russia law and his multiple miss. all right, so i'm going to target and you play the jerry says it was a national insult for the key to post the depiction of the hindu. go, the rising from a wire, the erupt into new queen, run it back on my mail a