ah ah ah hello in welcome to cross stock where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle, the term strategic autonomy sounds good. the word strategic conjures up a sense of importance and autonomy presents a sense of independence. but when you consider the french president using this term, that we are forced to wonder if he is a serious person, after all, europe is no longer strategic or autonomy this

cross sucking strategic autonomy. i'm joined by my guess, alfred desires in geneva. he is an author and a former you an independent expert on international order in paris. we have john laughlin. he is a university lecture in history and political philosophy. and in washington we cross matthew crossed and he is director of academic transformation about we state university high gentleman cross sack rolls in effect. that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you in paris. i mean, you and i have known each other knew, but on this program, as long as the french president micron has been in office and you and i have pointed out a number of times that entered dig gall trying to fight its way out of him. sometimes he gets de gaulle curious, but i don't take him seriously anymore because even when he says those kind of things the next day says something different, i think that is really emblematic of europe's place in the world today. go ahead, john. yeah, i mean, the big difference between a menu and michael and

a charles to go live there are so many of them is that all would never have talked about europe. european autonomy into gold talked about french autonomy and he understood that autonomy can only be national and that any european dimension by definition was incompatible with autonomy. mccolan doesn't understand that michael thinks that there can be such a thing as european autonomy. he believe all he occasionally, as you said in your question, petey occasionally says that. but actually there are contradictions in terms. and we saw this, for instance, when he went to china because he took rosena from the line with him. that was supposed to show that he was coming as a represented to a representative of europe. but between him and noah from the lion, they're a very substantial differences. and she is much more atlanta assist. i mean, he's pretty, atlanta says, but she's even more so. so what it him,

taking her to china showed was that europe reduces its own autonomy by trying to be a permanent alliance because everybody pulls in different directions and the result is the lowest common denominator. and in addition to the fact of course, that as we all know, the european project, including the military dimension of it, is entirely an american creation and entirely under the control of the american. so these are just words and i've, i've used this quotation once before on this program, but i, i, i think one can repeat myself every, every other year or so. the problem about macklin is the same as a de gardener. deep down, he's very superficial. yeah. laugh on for, oh, i'll alfred you know, i mean, and in trying to, you know, in most of the world are talking about multi polarity, are the rise of the global south, the global majority. and it seems like the french president and others like him are relying upon old troves that really don't make sense anymore. and nobody really

takes any take seriously, no more. for example, nato was expanded, nato is more powerful. oh no, i think it just made washington more powerful. not the alliance per se. so i mean, they all the they are all chasing the wrong rabbits down the wrong rabbit hole. alfred. yes, there are 2 river. i don't i absolutely agree with john. now i'd like to see the analysis of dr. cochran, but as the case may be from my perspective, as a former un staffer, and as a former rapport church, it is quite clear that the europeans live in their bubble. we are actually a small clique, the europeans and the americans. the global majority is against us and we are actually isolating ourselves even further is not just micro and his well, you know, indeed cost jury in china. i think that the g 7 meeting now of the foreign

ministers is actually hallmark all how isolated, basically we in the west are be savvy, the rest of the world, the salary, the belt and road initiative. these heavy, the fact that most countries in the world have refused to impose sanctions on russia, etc, etc. so it's a question of perception of reality. but in our analysis, i'm in our self righteousness. that's a perception of reality is totally distorted. and i don't, i'm not optimistic that is going to change any time soon. i'd like to see the european realize that the united states is not, it's friends. the united states is not an asset. the united states is actually a lie of body. the united states interests and those are the or peons do not

coincide. but again, there is an ally and for the leak it does go inside. well, i mean, if there were any kind of democratic impulse left in europe, we might see a different direction. but i'm not counting on that here. matthew, one of the thing you alper is pointing out real things. belts, road ok, trade diversifying from the dollar. but the europeans and the americans talk about ideology all the time. and i can't make any head details of what they're talking. i need a translator. i don't know what they're talking about, and that's why most of the world is turning away ukraine. that's your problem. you made it, you fix it. what do you want from us? oh, and we remember hundreds of years of you telling us what to do, but it didn't work out well for us. ok, i mean how tone deaf can you be? mathew, i what i love in the commentary that we've had so far is the fact that there are, there are pieces that we're touching upon. and i think really back up for me, i'm not as i won't say cynical,

that meant that's too strong. but when macro dox about strategic autonomy, i think the united states is right. these are bubbles of power. the american ones are, and that is always infuriated, the americans, the americans are the only ones. and i've always found this fascinating is the fact that they will live ideologically in terms of how they speak before of the diplomatic microphones and how they act in quarters of power in other nations, capitals. but in terms of actual real term efforts, they're not, they will always follow what their national interests are, but they don't want other countries to be able to follow those saying, well, i mean, oh, i think, i think i think maybe in theory, but i mean, john i mean, you know, i don't want to have this turned into my favorite hobby horse, but north stream too. i mean, that's kind of a physical real thing. ok. that's being denied europe. ok. that goes beyond, you know, double speak one in public, a one in private here. my point is down here is that the europeans have given up

almost all of the leverage. they have to actually have some kind of autonomy. john? well, i think that's because they're afraid. again, i've said this before on your show, they can see what the americans are capable of doing, including to them. and they are afraid that if they were to call the americans out on north stream, that there would be further attacks. so that's the reality of the alliance. it's in fact not an alliance at all. it, so it's a mafia system of protection. and i think that that explains the extremely dysfunctional behavior of european politicians. there's no other rational explanation other than that, they are afraid. and you know, they're, that that's what makes all talk of autonomy. completely bogus. sits the talk of autonomy and mac homes mouth on michael's lips is simply intended to convince a largely skeptical french audience of the continuing usefulness of the european

union. and to pretend that somehow france can protect herself as a world power within that framework. in reality, of course, even those old dreams from the 19 fifties and sixties are unraveling. a we're seeing an incredible geopolitical shift within europe. thanks to american support from germany to poland. poland is now a main ally of the united states in europe. poland is the gas hub because it opened its norwegian pipeline the day after the north stream too was blown up by the americans. poland once to recreate, and indeed has in the form of some structures recreated a sort of fir into maria, a sort of polish lithuanian commonwealth, a sort of glassy against russia. poland has presented a 1.6 trillion bill for the 2nd world war to germany. and so on and so on. and in that context,

a france is totally marginalized as it germany for that matter. so all this is simply intended to curve, oh, a increasingly skeptical french public opinion, back into some support for the european project, which as everybody knows, is itself completely bogus. yeah, well, alfred, you know, it's interesting about what you can say and what you can't say. okay, and there are plenty of people that would like to see more french autonomy, european autonomy, and i, i liked the distinction that john has made here. but there's a lot of other people in the elite that say, hey, we're pretty high in the pecking order in the empire. if things are going great for us and it will lead a better bako, she's pretty good you in great, in this paradigm. i mean this, this for me is one of the things that i want to talk about in the 2nd half of the program is that so much of this is elite an ideologically driven alfred. before we go to the break, go ahead. yeah. democracy. if you ask the french people who ask the german people, they will tell you they don't want that and they will tell you they want

negotiation. they don't want to send more weapons to ukraine. notwithstanding. what do my grades in linmore goal? if you go all or in no track what algamite a title, i speak with people real people. and i don't find anyone who's excited about sending more weapons on to ukraine or about joining the campaign against china and getting, getting up on the one china policy. that's all extremely dangerous. and the europeans have to stay away from this guy. one common group i would propose referenda asked the all, i'm fred alfred. i don't you know, alfred, there's too much democracy in the weather is too dangerous for democracy. that's why when the newest members of nato don't have referenda, no, no, no, because it's too dangerous. they're gentlemen, i have to jump in here. we have to go to a short break. and after that short break,

we'll continue our discussion on strategic autonomy staying with our team. ah, ah, ah, ah . oh, canada is outsourced, its foreign policy to washington. and washington's agenda is one of the global hegemony. washington will not tolerate. and i think that they're not even not even subtle about this. you know, they're, they will not tolerate a global rival. ah,

some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities and other companies, united states of america is different. wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. ah, with it out of anybody at all to anybody basie since only city, if you draw, look at both ends. sanders and the cigarettes to color revolutions is one among several meanings to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them onto the help of u. s. west. and it could all make interest to put things sadie. i didn't keep it to everybody did them. okay, yeah, new training coral activate sol, suite a soft spot whenever you get. the final goal of these thing revolutions is to

ensure that there are no independent players in the world anymore. please put these a leads here because they have cultural affinity. italy are good for him, netherlands, good for brands, good for german, they talk about themselves. they talk about their elite and their elite ideas, which of course are superior to the people that a bad that they've built for them. go ahead, matthew. well, i think that's very true, but i also think that sometimes what's missed, especially in terms of the narrative that gets pushed in the united states, is that there is also a hierarchy within the elite itself. yep. and the americans push very hard to make sure everyone is very clear, that at the top of that elite hierarchy is the american elite, tal g for lack of a better term. and they want to make people understand. and that's why i come from a national security intelligence background. so i don't really look at it ideation only when that when micro talks about strategic autonomy, i see it much more from the practical reality of saying,

we're not comfortable with how the united states has largely basically through this conflict in ukraine. told all of europe, where else are you going to go? you have us and you have no one else. there is no other legitimate idea. there is no other legitimate alliance that you can rely on. and therefore, he's manipulating the phrase almost to me in a terminal, almost making it de facto like classical neutrality, which is i'm going to pursue our interest wherever they may lead us in. and i'm not automatically aligning with you on every single issue, just because you're at the top of data lead pyramid. that's what i think what infuriates the american soma. and, well, john, that's kind of like from the soprano as you know, you had a bind administration say, as kind of a nice presidential policy out there in france. you know, would be a pity if something happened to it. i mean this is, this is exactly what it is. i do agree with matthew, that is very high article. everything is high article, okay, everything. and, but, i mean, but what i,

what i find fascinating and deplorable is that there are so many people that will bow down to this hierarchy and think it's a good gig for them. i mean, just because your prime minister of a european country, i thought the end of your career, not just the beginning. okay. i mean, it's a, it's all a towards a griff. okay. and you get away with it by siding with, you know, the right side of history, the great americans, you know, a liberalism, they have all of these covers for their own self interest because dealing with the nitty gritty and fixing roads and having water quality. that's boring. john, well again, i think the concept of ideology that you introduced or in your questions earlier is very important. you know, 20 years after the end of the, after the invasion of iraq. it seems as if george w bush is we're still in power. you're either with us or against us, you know, there's no, there's no concept anymore in the western mind set for negotiation for diplomacy,

for compromise. instead, all lee strategic documents, for instance, of nato itself, are indeed formulated in highly ideological terms. there's a lot of stuff about values. there's a lot of stuff authoritarian regimes which somehow threaten us and so on. and a michael, of course, made his remark partly because he wants to sell a lot of our buses to china. and so he was trying to sob, not chinese opinion, or which is, which is ultimately fair enough. but the fact is that he himself has gone far too far down the ideological writ, able to speak about, or any kind of strategic autonomy with any, any conviction. and, you know, you said you wanted to talk about society and culture instead of talking about politics. but one of the depressing things about life i would say in europe to day is that there aren't any cultural or social spheres left anymore, which are independent of politics. you know,

let him is. lensky speaks at the vienna venice be anomaly. he speaks at the cannes film festival. he speaks at the frankfurt book fair, though there are, there are no, he speaks of the class and re festival. there are no cultural events left where politics does not intervene, or for that matter where l g b, t writes, or whatever intervene as well. there are no more autonomous fields left and therefore we are in europe, in a situation very similar to that which existed in the soviet union. yeah. the communism where everything had to be brought back to marxism. in europe today, everything has to be brought back to, to post modernism and to the associated values. and back or of course himself is an app pure, a product of that, of that, of that of that phenomenon. yeah, i'm not worried about zalinski appearing at all those venues. i'm sure he is his checks or cash to all across europe without a problem. okay. member chang. i shake. remember his nickname was cash. my check that we have to find a ukrainian version cash. my check, i'll alfred, you know,

we're very pessimistic here right now because i don't see any tools or any ideas or a cadre they can actually shake things up by a. it really seems that europe has straight jacketed itself to washington. that's not a bad. i would take, i mean, because if you look at the middle east, it but read china's initiatives. i mean pieces breaking out all over the place and the americans have no control over apparently at all. i, i see which arc of history i would like to be on. i'd like to be on the side a piece. alfred. well, of course, but it's amazing that all our thing packs were really came. so the heritage foundation, now they have not realized that we ourselves, i cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world and that the belton road initiative and everything else is passing over. now the main problem that i see in the west, and that includes switzerland, where i lay, is the mainstream media. the main very media is brainwashing is

indoctrination. and 2 books come to my brand new world of out of those, hopefully out of course $984.00 of george orwell. we live in that this dopey and i don't see any awakening right now. thank god, there is something called consortium news and counter punch and prove out. and the real news network on the intercept time god, there are still sputnik and r p and v g, d, n, and asia times and the mobile times, et cetera. but that is for us, we'll actually go out on our way to get the information and get different narratives and try to evaluate what the masses they go during the television and they watch cnn, and that's all they get. and that is the problem. if you have a democracy where the entire population has been indoctrinated into believing as

a matter of faith that we are the good guys believing that we have the right to do what we're doing. i mean, we have locked ourselves into this situation, which is very difficult to get out. yes, yes, absolutely. and pending themselves into a corner, matthew, i want to take advantage of your past professionalism here. can you comment if you want on these document weeks? what do you? because it's very interesting how summer using it to, to shift it narratives to change perspectives on the crane and other things like that. and i've talked to a lot of people in the intelligence community, mostly retired. and most that, with this kind of scratch their heads over, what do you think of it? this is obviously from, from my line of work. this is sort of occupying the front end of the desk. i think

it's the plastered everywhere within the united states and people are fascinated by it. there are practical aspects that probably go beyond what we're talking about or maybe seems small potatoes in the bigger discussions we're having right here. but i think it is starting to show some regular clinical regular citizens in america. that there is definitely a problem in the united states in terms of the, the categorization of clearances. we have far too many people that get clearances, security clearances within our, within our governmental military intelligence communities. and we're seeing because of who did the leaks and why that person's as well. ok, matt. matthew, let me, let me jump to the chase here. how did this kid get these kinds of documents that? well, that's the question. and and are they real ok? oh, i think they're real. okay. because that is people too often want to take the hollywood version. they get fed a lot in terms of the intelligence community. we have 1400000 people with security

clearances in the united states. and not all of them are senior officials with decades of experience. we have too many documents that get classified in order to process them. we end up with people like the individual that did the leaking with access to documents that now the thing i'd want to push back on is the idea of just how powerful were these documents that he actually leaked on to his gamers site. right, i mean there was some embarrassing things there to be sure. but the idea that, well, i don't know if taiwan is ready for a chinese incursion militarily. or if we don't keep doing what we're doing in ukraine, ukraine could end up facing real start. wow. ok, ma matthew mean ammunition you bring up a very easily, chris, you know, you bring up a very interesting point because they could discussions i've had with people is that if you really put your nose to the grindstone and look at all, you know, the you way ye, for example, i like that, and none of these documents say anything particularly new. okay. but they're being presented is some kind of splash. okay, them here, but john, i,

what is the feeling in the, in france? i mean we, we had this pension reform here. i suppose that you know, i'm a chrome did paula to gall and does she had got it down his own way here? what kinds of pressures are peep? what kind of pressures are people feeling as this conflict in ukraine continues when the prospects are very bleak for nato, irrespective of all the propaganda that people are being fed. 45 seconds to my friend. well, i'm afraid, i think france is no different from anywhere else. i think there is a mass media problem that albert alfred design mentioned, and while there may be a higher degree of understanding for russia in france than in other countries, i don't think france is substantially different. the west predictions have not come true. i have to say that haven't been power cuts in france. they haven't been, that hasn't been serious hauled ship just as the west pred predictions happen. come through, come true for rush or either. right. so it way it's off the news,

and people instead are worried about, you know, pension reform, as you say, the ukraine thing is not really at the top of the gender at the moment. it's dragging on and i think that's probably part of russia's. i've been strategy. i think russia knows that they will be will fatigue. yeah, pretty good if not already, all of the naysayers that have had over the last 15 months. i've said the same thing here. there are different size, have different agendas and timeframes who's got the cox and who's got the time or a gentleman that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guests in paris, switzerland, and in washington. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz phoenix, i'm remember, cross stuck with ah ah,

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