for you go as flight change and whatever you do, don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you comfortable. my show is called direction. but again, you probably don't wanna watch it because it might just change the way you. 2 2 for most national security whistle blowers, the most common and consequential dilemma is what to do when you become aware of waste, fraud, abuse, or illegality. but you know that exposing it will put you in legal jeopardy. this is a particularly tough question in the united kingdom, which has a draconian official secrets act. do you do what you know in your heart is the right thing and go public. do you risk spending the rest of your life in prison? or do you put your head down and just remain silent? i'm john. carry onto. and this is the whistle blowers the

. i'm a national security whistle blowers. catherine gun is quite literally a hero of gifted linguist. she was hired by britons g. c h q. to translate mandarin intelligence, intercepts into english in early 2003, she read an email from the chief of staff in the american national security agencies regional targets division in which he asked for help in bugging the united nations offices of 6 countries. that were members of the un security council. they were angola, bulgaria, cameroon, chile, guinea, and pakistan. and the purpose of the operation was to determine these countries potential positions on an american invasion of iraq. the bugging contravenes the vienna convention on diplomatic relations and was thus illegal. catherine made a copy of the e mail, gave it to a friend who had access to the media and put it out of her mind until more than a month later, when she saw it on the front page of the observer,

newspaper british authorities immediately began an investigation and a few days later, catherine told her supervisor that she was the source of the report. that's when her long nightmare began. we're pleased to have catherine gun with us on the show. catherine, welcome. a. hi, thanks, johns. i'm glad to hear yours was some of the highest stakes whistle blowing possible. it was over the issue of war and peace. take us back to that day when you 1st saw that, and i say e mail, what was going through your mind? how was it that you made the decision so quickly to go to the media with the information? okay. wow. in around september 2002. i was invited along with other was colleagues at g, c, h q, to go to the us for a web conference, and that was in san diego. and as part of the conference on one of the free days, we were invited to go on

a us aircraft carrier and tour it. and while we were there, we saw a lot selection on, on both the aircraft carrier and lots of young marine navy personnel running around getting ready. and we said, i, you know, when i looked at these young guys and looks at my colleagues and i saw a wow, you know, they looked so young and even though we were not twenties, the guys looked really young. and i, i said to my colleague, i was like, well what do you think they're up to? and so he asks them, and they said, oh ma'am, we're getting the shit ready to set sale to the goals. and we said really and they said, yeah, we're going out to work some iraqi. yes. and i was just completely taken aback by that because you know, iraq, although it had just started to be mentioned in the news as

a possible belligerent by the us. and then you k, it was still kind of under the radar and it made it immediately made me pick up my is. and from that point onwards, i started looking into it and paying attention to what was going on. and i went and bought a couple of books from a bookshop that outlined stuff. basically everything's from behind, you know, and she made and get mediately and you spent a night in jail. it took the government eat more minor jack. tell us about the official secrets act and about what the penalty is. her ations and the most recent was 6 a. the intelligence services the defense industry classified and although intelligence and defense staff to secrets act, in fact, every one basically in the u. k is on the they could potentially be charged. however, that's not happening on this. uh yes, i've been in the for exposing anything. any voltage at the minute is 2 years. i

debated it hasn't been to pay to that link. but there are more draconian, the officials on sentence and in addition of confidential material, even for breaches of official secrets act as well. um 2004. but within 30 minutes of the start of the proceedings. these intended to argue that trying to stop in illegal war of aggression just dropped the case. what happened there was it that prosecutors were for everyone on that day really because, you know, i, cuz i think there was, there was an election coming up in the u. k. so into that or the labor party, one at any rate. and tony blair was highly political trial that would put the iraq . and secondly, i think that now such as the attorney general's legal advice information that we

want the government to expose in order for us to manuals legal advice, a change prior to him present until a full year off to my taste was dropped. and actually, you know, the jury potentially finding me not guilty a potential defense because currently as a breaches. and so the only justification had my case been successful in finding may not go to the period between arrest and trial is a nightmare. you with your whistle blowing. yeah, that's right. it was very difficult. you just got married. my husband is which is government that was prior to we got married me without being deported. however, at some point a would be d portage. much. actually. no, it was off to, they charged me after the port him from the country which um seclusion with my

passport, confiscated and so on actuation, but the my criminal case actually prevented him from being deported. all that but until i was actually charged i was anonymous and i really yeah, as you're saying over me for about 4 months until they dropped the charges. so. 2 the the, or the stony and capital mazda associates authorities originally billed

the appointment in the morning and forget when you're on the verge of immunity, strongly opposed it. an intense rising broke out in town and most of the username and it's our so what we've got to do is identify the only personally i'm going to resist. i don't see how that's with british national security was a blower, catherine gun, who revealed that the american on a potential invasion of iraq in 2003. catherine, thanks again. during the reverend jesse jackson, the godfather of national security was okay, what was your support like there? oh, definitely been charged and i was more or less a public se featured out to me personally. and, and it was just simple, the institute for public accuracy, including journalists, i'm

a lot of people interested in my case. so i got hundreds of me for what i done. and so it was, it was really the same type level as co ordination in the u. k, as i, i know no political figure, i know public figures stood up, and so yeah, it was, it was principally from the u. s. in fact, they are not supportive of our whistle blowing despite the fact that in many british outlets treat you as a whistle blower where they support is did they? um the ups of being pods at the guardian then suggests that they would pay for on who you know, who would represent me by the guardian to pay for my lawyers. but you know, and i did end up going for liberty enough of fantastic. they were really great and, and they blocks any type of and one to say horrible things to me. um,

uh, any sorts of outspoken political support may have reached out, and i rejected them because i was a campaigning or prim. i'll tavia motives, however good. they may have been, and one way or another way, a highly regarded feature film was made about secret plot to sanction the iraq invasion. daniel ellsberg said that you are with mit treated, you in the intervening years. and were you ever able to establish, or you know, of the out um evidence that the child caught inquiring about the illegal invasion of iraq. and so it's just, it's, it's a non a non event. it is so much. and i think this is very disturbing because in fact uh very blinds a fight on, you know, but i think there was a to the background of that email. i'm a why and how when, who and hosting was

a cover up basically it was uh give to somebody considering blowing the whistle within the national security community. 8. very tricky question. um why? even when i blew the whistle, you know, into, i was not a politically motivated person, a tool. i never ends and, and one moment of ext i didn't seek any type of legal advice or, or anything that's, that's a very risky thing to do. so in various ways um who device um, i mean look at cmo hash for example the infamous the north stream. so he's protecting his sources guessing the information out us intelligence. so defense whistle blower there is no, i'd like to thank our guests catherine gun for joining us and thank you it injured by the abuse of liberty, but also by the abuse of power and gun until next time. thanks for joining us.

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