of the the, [000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on funeral abilities. when someone tells you who they are, you should believe that the same applies to nato's current. secretary general young stilton bird, in an interview with the washington post dolton bird review nato, is in fact a cold,

illiterate in the brain conflict. and that the alliance is anything but defensive. the, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess. martin j america. she's an award winning journalist and commentator and in budapest be across the georgia, samuel. he is a pod cast where the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals, or gentleman cross offerings in effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i would appreciate it by george and start out with you in budapest year, i guess joseph barrow and self and birds are there are 2 favorites because they're just such a low hanging fruit. they to the mach into a deconstruct, and unpack much what they say to the public because no one ever challenges either one of them, and that's why they come out. so fluid. as i said in my introduction, the cell number get an interview with the washington post. let me just read you the 1st question and then the 1st answer, we can kick it out there. so this is that a trial or, oh,

has the war lead nato to recalibrate its defense past year and doctor, this is announced, elton burns, we bought, which is really quite amazing. the war in ukraine has been many to change nato, but you have to remember the word didn't starts in 2022. the worst started in 2014 . and since then, nato is implemented, the biggest reinforcement of our collective defense since the end of the cold war, the ukraine is not in nato. right. okay, so let's go there. and george wood sticks out to me is a 2014. it's just kind of dangling there. what, what is to the the reader never binds out what? 2014 means kick it off guard. well, that's exactly right and that's a who's has a introductory question and onset gives you a good sense of what stilton bug is about. he reveals the we've been involved in ukraine ongoing training. the ukraine invoices this 2014 and they have the same

time where us to believe that russia launch the unprovoked attack and approve of it was nothing of the 3 seated. it could of a lead the russians through the site to attack. and then he, later on, uh, i need to get an answer to another question. he says, oh um we you need to really has to, to austin your brain. one is to give everything your grain of needs. uh, the 2nd is to prevent escalation. um, how do we prevent escalation? what would prevent escalation uh, by declaring that nato is not a policy to the conflict that you just said. you're going to give everything your grand needs. you not to bother the conflict by mobilly boulevard. horses east was right on the rushes borders. so you prevent escalation by escalate to. i mean, you know, you, we know, but 0. george rolls 1984 war is peace,

ignorance, and strength. this is just busy. i mean, there are sort of like you just said one thing and then in the next then does, he completely contradicts himself. but this is what nato is about. a they declares that we're a defensive alliance. that is why we continue doing expand of these woods and everywhere, and then we're going to get it. they get more more, more confidence. but we are a defensive alliance. how, how does that get to be defensive? and then as you say that nobody ever challenges you told them that it goes on nato is regarding the west, the media and policy makers up with this somehow. so evidently on the side of good when it is only is a crisis one machine or yeah, i think it was twitter of a one point. oh, basically you had your vendor rates made. so i can remember the exact name of the but basically putting it on a pedestal, mark. and what's, what's really interesting here again, you know, we shouldn't be surprised that the interviewer or the washington post editorial board was the didn't challenge him. one thing, it was just an object,

the pure and simple. but if you go, it's very interesting. if you look at the entire interview, it's really what's interesting to me is that the whole idea of security is completely missing. because if nato claims to be defensive in terms of security, then by definition or go, others have security as well. this is something that is never recognized by nato. it all good. no one has a security interest. everyone is top hat. there's no, there's no conversation with and this is the fundamental flaw of this alliance. and this plot inherently makes it very dangerous. hence what we see, what's going on in your grand more? yeah, i think it's a fair point, but i think it also raised the question, but the, what is the actually the identity of the race on the desktop of nato itself? is it the defense alliance, which in the event of defending a certain area of ground for its members,

will actually go to war and put man on the front line i lose lives? i'm do with all that or is it and alliance, which is more, i would all your i spoke shop, which takes so um, the situation, the crisis, whatever is right to the very inches away from the abyss and place this game against russia. so the actual, the emphasis on russia to not escalate to is complete the most since. well, i'm still the biggest thing about we, we provide escalation needed quite the opposite. but you know, i understand a good journalist and you, utah, and this is why the plum doesn't it like that. if you look at this, there are no follow up questions. why not? because it's scripted because it's been written by people. you know, it's not, it's not a real interview. i'm a need to put gentleness was, was, is wait in the library. and so we'll look at 2 or 3 of these really important points. the storm bug a supposedly made and follow up with a key question. given the example of his reference to china and russia,

these as an interview, you know, they so doesn't compare to china and russia in terms of ministry capability to any jonas, which if in the and so you look for how long. when you look at the bridge countries lining up 9, see now that when you look at the brakes very rapidly turning into an eastern book and having its own policies this upcoming season banking system, it's only a matter of time before the defense strategy. it kicks in, particularly if the americans, people with disruptions against children. and that's exactly what, that's exactly the point george is, but it has nothing to do with defense of anything that i can to see is what, what it is is to maintain and perpetuate the gemini. that's what this is all about . and that's why these very odd references, no nature isn't going to expand into asia, but then it talks about their security interest. we, these are be china and i think that kind of, you know, vague. again, scrambling everybody's head. what are you talking about? and mark me right, is that they will that, that's kind of a segue for

a follow up question. i mean, what do you mean by that? it just left dangling george the strip. and what's a good some interesting the is that you said something like, um and then, you know, even says only 2 members agree that ukraine will be a member of the nature. um, now obviously the members do not agree on this. uh and, and, you know, we've, we've had the care environment as the victor or by him. i think when he said something before, you know, putting out a tweet like just simply with the word want, exclamation point. and then what's interesting, when he says of that is remember the, you know, when the age sergeant schultz is another good friend of ours. when he was in moscow a few days before the start, the russia circle, special motor job, where she said, oh,

this is all nonsense. um no one has any serious plans about bringing ukraine into nature. so which is the light? that will members agree that ukraine will be a member of nato, something that they are continually repeated in one a to sum it up or another, the name of your brain will be a member of nato or sergeant shows. i remember when michael look full and roddicks the course getting that debates with the national i am, is that no, no, no, there was never any serious plan or bringing your brain into 9 to so which is the line one of the statement though, the other has to be aligned, but that's something they do, it just gets away with it. but as they blatantly observe things, opus the deceitful things in the stopping with the the pledge not one inch to the east and then the the goal. well no we, we didn't, we, we didn't really mean that we, we just don't let germany, we went along with the rest of it, but we basically moved, made those boat as a 1000 miles. so these is just

a dizzying series of lies that like there's going away with because there really is no challenge from the media market and the fragment that i, that i read of the, the year 2014 again, there's no references. what's the significance of that? obviously the reader is not informed that that was an illegal change of power in into, of the crew against the legitimate and democratically elected government. but there's also missing is the men's process that's not there whatsoever. you know, george is talking about the different levels of deceit that we have experience and with the we don't have any reference to merkel the alon what their reference was to the, in the me, none of this a, a journalist, what have you said? well, can you explain then? not that doesn't happen, margaret low followup questions, you know, scripted into it reminds me obviously very much of the, um, the so called white propaganda of the 1980s during the reagan era. you had a lot of a logic was placed in the washington, but as in the new york times,

i don't care about the good naples values of the country to some of that great people and tell them to value the traditional values. and we have so much income with them and you know, it did, it was, well, there's articles, elizabeth, in millions, dollars spent, you know, it's a since i spoke with the same thing in my own career in yugoslavia and sacrifice and imagined nice use. it just goes home, doesn't it? syria, iraq, i'm not going to stone. you this information to come pay and this, this just trying was with it just for me. this is just an extension of it. could it be, but actually drive by and how to handle this. so if you ever wanted just how close made. so i'm in washington. uh or if you ever wanted exactly the role that's required of the dates or secretary general, you know, a lot of people just rushing off as america's pocket. look at these talking based taking notes. look at these booking points, sorry. and they just seem to be almost identical to all of the objectives that

america is trying to reach, not only in your brain but in the world. and with him, how i mean, giovanna, we shouldn't forget is very cuz the chips and he has a very conservative nato secretary general that they're both looking back in history, not looking for they both want an east west coast rule assess, so everything is nice and binary and simplified, and we know how to do, i'll do is let me know who are in these uh, me new uh, friends, uh you know, the rest of the 2014. i find absolutely hilarious because you don't expand on that . and the reason why it has always found that because he doesn't want to actually open this kind of williams where everybody realize i'm going to jump in here, we're going to open up a lot more tangible as the 2nd part of the gentleman, i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and it's about short break. we'll continue our discussion on some

real estate with our team. the words that are very, very precarious moment in human history. for tracy, for us are flesh so usually expect us the way we need to lease is up. let's just say it wasn't still you could stay at. and if you have the for you, i'm going to use the custodial green. i'd love story you and you wasn't mentioning,

correct. like show me it's got save you screwing up when we changed since then. yeah. usually when i from assess religion towards the sea chest faith with those that the world exhibits the drive i deal with. she has written this time and you cry, genocide of civilians, the militarization of society and an ultra nationalist state policy. decades may say history is repeating itself. let's not forget that a 2 years ago, the soviet union defeated non system at the cost of an enormous number of casualties. there's a reason why the so be as less 27000000 and the u. s. was 310000 and combat the ritz about the same number. the soviets were doing most of the fighting. and most of the time, if you k in france, had

a size that agreement with the soviet union, they could have stopped the the limits across that were all things are considered non peter low. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real names the . all right, let's go back to george in budapest, also in the article this something you and i talking about our pod cast very often is a cell number and makes reference to our values like what those values operate and

just very unclear to me. i know the word, i can spell the word i recognize the word when i see it when i hear it. but when i hear from these kind of officials, it's just kind of like, you know, little them though, you know, listening to the ocean in the shell. george. yes, uh, the show. the book is a great one with the, with talking about the values because it's a, it's one of those words like a, it's a, it's a buzzword that makes people feel good because they want to go as bad because we have barriers where moral with spiritual uh, you know, we cherish freedom, democracy, you know, motherhood, apple pie. they, on the other hand, don't you know, they said that, you know, down in the dungeon, puffing evil things and the only thing in malevolence. oh, it's all the time. so that's what i want, you know, he says these things that the, everyone feels good about the need to. and that's really how you know this, the major is just this gigantic propaganda machine. i mean they,

they how enormous sums of money increasing will these fellowships of all of these things bang, some of these conferences and everyone goes there. they, uh, shower, favors on jo, notice on their favorite journalists. and so when they, when they go to, uh, you know, these news conferences, they get good seats, they get to ask questions. those or in any way, skeptical of nato, you don't get into this is nato news, congress. or if you do usually tell me about of the back, no one's going to pull you and you know, and any time, any time you ask a challenging question, showed him but you know, fumbles it, and he's getting me a rescued by uh, by other journalists. unfortunately, he passed and those ask a question about yugoslavia which was really exactly somebody i think that was a wonderful russian german listening. got in off the question. obviously they went off script, do they called him and he said, you know where he said made those defensive. you know,

what about yugoslavia and he said, oh yes, um, uh, but you know, that was both arise by the united nations security council. and of course he was in and so you know, things in new york times, man, steven the line goes there. well, i'm a, my recollection is really politely by recollection is that the was in a un security council resolution or recollection. he knows perfectly well that was yeah, yeah, i know what might be what it was on humanitarian you know we, we did it to save lives. we still need to save genocide and then need moving, moving right along. but that's what happens. i need to be able to show them and these business, those challenging questions so he can both take away happily about things that make, make us all feel good. yes, we have values. well, money here, the unique position because you're outside of nato world. i am to you've told us before, but i think it's worth reiterating and with, when you were here in western and visual talk about western values. how does that

ring where you are of the religious and very bigoted. um, you know, you, if you're going back in time to a period of colonialism where european powers, you know, look down on the africans and something that mission raised into the darkest corner of the continents. you know, this idea of values, we need to teach you values, you don't know values, so we have 5 is bodies or commodity like a 40 foot container baked beans. you know, we've got lots of them. you haven't a but let me go back to my point about 2014, but it was cut off from the break, i think still to, but amazingly, he went to this and incredibly admitted in his so called interview, which i'm absolutely certain was, is, was scripted, you know, has to be made references to pulling money ministry agency ukraine since 2014 cents when person code was installed in it. whether it was a qu data or whether it was certainly intervention. i mean, you know, it is unquestionable between noon and books about $5000000000.00. american types pays money. 5000000000,

not 5000000. and that's an awful lot. so bunting and brochure isn't that, you know, so he doesn't want to actually sort of spotlight on the historical period of what's been going on. but it, it certainly makes a lot of sense. now if, if more people in the west on the stoops timeline, then i think i'd be more shots about the, the interview and the references to preventing escalation. um, you know, also so of other posters site is, i mean the whole idea about this value thing is that a lot of people buy and so it is, george mentioned and it is very much considered to be a western notion and it's already used for full when west to least talk about the new enemies, new people out there who we should be very wary of like the chinese and you know, he makes his reference and which is incredibly paternalistic and indian speed, which i couldn't believe. you know, you said, you know, well, we can't really take the chinese seriously because until they recognize that the russia, you know, invited him, you know, the, it's really a way of saying,

we're never going to work things out with the chinese. we're going to pull the barriers up because we won't along with the item to go back to no mention h as well. well, we can have this rule and we can divide everything and we can pull billions and billions. it's a 1000000 industrial complexes with corruption, flourishes, and we can get to choose o s o b 's around the world. we want to install, you know, and this thing about china is, is extraordinary because you made a reference to, to a jungle. joe, in your opinion, and that's what joseph beretta he just recently and a few days ago how to form is convincing sweeten. and he just basically almost cub and copied all of these talking quite so the answer, you know, that both politically, from the same party to both from the, from the left, you know, and so it was the, some collusion, the but, but some jungle show what that stage for the actually really hammer the chinese and stilton back didn't actually pull back from actually say, you know, incredibly,

it was only 3 years ago. the stilton boat was talking about the chinese is all new allies, is what we should be doing bridges and bringing them closer to, you know, bringing them in from the cold that awful spike police a from the 9 she types is, you know, all that was out there so what has happened to this guy? what time to start the book simple. he's been put into line by point and i never got the got the memo the, the optimal. you know, it's interesting that what i'm glad that martin is talked about how this was crafted, because i think he's absolutely right. but i think the introduction of 2014, without any references, it's the sanitize the history. meaning it's mentioned that we're not going to explain to because it's on board. and so why should you do know another thing, another attempt to sanitize george. what was the question about a republicans in college and congress conservatives in general, kind of losing interest in the ukraine paper. and but when he did was which we would have all the expect, it is a, it's by part is it,

which again means this is the leads the say, who cares what the people say, my goodness, we don't need referenda to get in to have a country in the internet though, we the political elite, the, me, the, the, the, me, my, the bi coastal lead to me in the american reference there. so, i mean, it was interesting how they kind of use it was an attempt to santa tie so many potential questions that a real journalist would actually ask that that's right. and that is very important that this isn't the lead project because again, that's a you recall the few days ago when donald trump was in, that's a cnn town. bold. the bait. and uh, and then he said, well, good um, you know, my 1st priority would be to bring immediate peace to ukraine. i'm going to get round round the table. let's show it seemed like a reasonable thing to do. what the statesman will do with a serious political think it will do. and then how did the cable and collins the,

the model rate the response? well, did you want you going to when is it? well, i one piece, but do you want ukraine to win? and that's, that's just a, that's the, the, the mentality of the people who go off to these uh, just sold them the newest golf. the dog says that they may be, trump is watching us, or maybe people around him. but on this program with my honored guest right here, we have asked this question over and over again, what is the objective winning or losing your peace and true god? it's bought. all right? yeah, exactly. so yeah, he said exactly what you're supposed to say. and that is public opinion, number of, of the body. and chair, you know, this is a republican audience. those is, you know, people on the right, these are you likely from both as they cheer. they didn't say, hey, what we want to go back to. these are wrong, reagan, you know, the kind of the kind of stuff, the republican politicians, mainstreamed, republican, politician oil. right? all right, go right for they've been ronald reagan. he would have of you, you know,

he'd have, it's a good roll and you know, you would have to put in, you know, you, then you better shape up or you'll see what you get. that's, that's not where the public is. the bodies as we did a with that's bring peace now. and that's true also in your, i mean we can guess that a pole in the, in germany overwhelming majority of germans do not want your brain in later session . open box as well. oh, nato allies agree you agree must be laid. so yeah, but that's, you know, germany, the public opinion said no, we don't want this and you go to any country in europe. and you awesome is that? no, we don't want that. we don't want essentially being we're being pushed into a rule that we don't want by political leaders who have not even been able to spell out what exactly their objectives of you don't mind me. they talking about values. i suppose one of them would be a democracy, but the mean when, when the burrell speaks someone's 1000 burden speaks, there's such a democracy deficit. plain sporting says, reference to that, you know,

public opinion. but actually, if you'll get public opinion polls in germany, year after year after the majority of germans, one american troops to leave, okay. they want them up there. so it was worse than what? 78 years right now. but you know, this isn't the only who sold him right now. he's pointed him level elected ok. he's on an elected official, you know, and then be, and we have the same thing with the european commission. these are all the lead driven. and you know, in the and public opinion, well, you know, that that's just a, a moment in time. i always say it doesn't mean anything. what means something, um, um, to the people that are actually raising this issue because there are real consequences . these are weights don't have any consequences. i'm sure stilton bruce lifestyle is wonderful. go ahead, man. yeah, and these lead help the clusters don't know. you talked about the european union over here commission late, so un a one to west autumn bus going of trump table. he's done standing, please get a go to the new region. central bank. i think that's the all right,

just so she job goes to the i'm still with the lead students to with all these. um, clusters of is the people sign up to when they have to but you know, you made the point about democracy, i think was the democratic deficit, will say with media, you know, george set about john list dealing with nature. yeah. i went to afghanistan in 2007, and refused to have a, a need to embed and an american major lazy, right. like you said, to me over the telephone quote. so she said, honey, you're not going to get much work done. yeah. without one that was, that was the dates is way of saying, you know, you're on the embed it and you sign up to the 5th of all these, um, these various um, things we've arranged for you to see and reports on, you know, nothing. and i, so i went by on what i had to do my own thing. but um, it is interesting that journalists are reporting on the stilton book entry. if you do some goodly, you would also generally run out of time. but at least we talked about it and i

think that's makes and worth watching. okay, i want to take my guess in america and in budapest, one i think our viewers were watching us here are the scenic some. remember, my stuff was

the the, [000:00:00;00] the with 98.5 percent of the votes know, carted, and the turkish presidential election. i run off fall, it looks like the as neither of the 2 main contenders have reached the majority needed to secure victory president during the war and sage, the opposition is misleading the nation by stating there no money is in the least it comes off to rival come out,

kill it still to choose the turkish news agency of the storing the results of the