rushing you for a proxy for the discussion next sound going underground. i think most of the time out sooner time seeing welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. a. in the last week of the mass, the rest of pro democracy activists in london protesting the coordination of charles, the 3rd russian celebration. the $78.00 of us read the winning. it's winning. we'll go to m the crushing of fascism. this is moscow claims. it is a game today fighting nazis in your a bomb to the teeth by washington, london, and brussels and they donation media is going to highlight the apparent scale to back celebration is here as

a result of what his claims were depleted military resources and forces due to russia's invasion of ukraine on saturdays show, we spoke to dan rice development special advisor to ukraine's um forces commander in chief general, the others, me to hear how the war is going from the great inside. now joining me from counter being that you came for different viewpoint, give me is professor richard cycle. can universities ameritas, professor of russian in european politics and the author of the russia sca fake news and genuine threats? thank you so much. a professor for coming back on the show. i don't know so much has happened since you last spoke to us in december before the february move by russia. i suppose i should just ask you how, how it is over there in the britain where i give you context, you do just listen how. how is it in britain? the coverage of it was a victory day. i commemorating the victory over the nazis and we'll go to as well. i mean, yeah, that it wasn't much mentioned, but the well of course we've had

a lot of excitement with the see prime ministers in the course of the year. several finance ministers dispatching the other so it's been a very exciting time in the u. k. politics. and obviously the exit question is still unresolved about how that's going to be sorted out in the future. but as you say for vic to day, it doesn't get any feature that much. and it's been over shadowed by the congregation, as you said on the 6th of may to that gets hold a successful because i'm in your book from 9 ukraine. i tell everyone to read, it's a required reading for the context of what we are witnessing on our media about ukraine in nature. countries very different to those in the global. so the coverage of what's happening in ukraine road, the successful 2. i know your other book on this information about russia, how western europe, the united states, has been a night and play. it's become figure out how to do this. unfortunately,

in the u. k, a bubble like anglo muck level. people came out to explain that the minsk agreement, which i think we discussed in that just temper edition going undergrad. december 2021. that that was a, a basically a point on ukraine. further in preparation as it was a bombing, of course the civilians are doing. yeah. it's going to ends, which provoked as the russian see it and the response for bosco. yeah. um, she did say that in fact twice and sold it for a long day as a member of the enrollment. the format, i love this as concerning medical, i just wonder whether she's saying that no, because she's getting so much flag because she's supported all the way through the building of nodes to him to in fact and hosting one. 0 yeah. and she was absolutely committed to the continuation of the energy partnership between germany and russia . and so when the that fell apart in february last year, that she, in a sense,

found herself politically exposed. and as we know, she was a mazda in maneuver political maneuver. so i wonder whether earlier, but the worst thing of course, about minutes is that russia was constantly exalted to fulfill the age of a named obligations. whereas the very specific ukrainian obligations, no one who particularly putting any pressure on them. so clearly i think that both i can give them a color and although, and i have a lot to answer for, i will try to so interesting. we met cool in the lead up to the events last of last february 2022 was very active diplomatically. i know i do support that terminal. i know that, you know, applaud attempts to find a diplomatic solution that didn't lead to anything. and it just shows the ways that you pay leaders like to action that they, you know, they, they, you know, that perhaps unknown fills before the events also was active diplomatically. um,

but you know, the decisions were taken in washington and so which once again very sadly, my view as an old fashioned coolest. who wanted to say over the years i've been calling for pam continental vision, some sort of vision of unity film at least been deflect if i stop. and instead of which we ended up in this hyper atlanta system, which basically marginalized, the old what i have now there is cool. there's legacy powers that's clear on says jim many times. so you guides the wheels my tongue, but i'm not actually engaging with anything except that since time to go some time out. i know from some friends in joining the war on iraq. but child the goal, the black and rehabilitation of neo nazis and vc, we must remember and actually isn't the question that actually was that always a lie. that the, even from, with the brand on europe was always a marshal plan vessel states. and we would just told the lies in our schoolbooks because basically, as we know, the size of the rams teen based,

i don't know how many us soldiers are uh, in the country or speaking to me from right now. it is always, uh, active in lock step for us imperialism around the world. well, actually, you mentioned new york, and there was the united kingdom didn't join in vietnam. interesting so. so leaders do make a different entitled, wilson, we refused to, to commit u u. k. forces to viet nam us to ended. it so happened the last and well he resigned in 1976 that i mentioned not long afterwards and he in my view is still the greatest prime minister we had to india. okay. be honest, there are some in african countries that may not, we don't support that. and they of course, um you, the fact is, i presume from where you all the same media, bbc, i think the, the boss of the bbc is that the quits over a loan, arranging loans, devoris johnson. but they're all paging rusher is losing this, this was the food chain is either eel or about to be over thrown. do you think

people believe these stories as to how far rusher is last miscalculated, then it's actually the end of russia before we soon witness the end of china. that seems to be a narrative coming from reuters and associated press again, once again when control of the contract pending, you can use the states and united states is a, you know, it took a cost and of course it was pushing forward a different perspective in the u k, we now have jeep in use and we have some, uh, kind of to have that number. not huge audiences yet. and but interesting enough, the mass media is very strongly of one voice saying what you just said. but then you're going to have in the daily mail and i enroll mislead respect. peter hitchens, who's being making the, you know, the different point of your perspective and more balanced. view of to say this is an awful well, really must find a way to find

a diplomatic way out of it and western too unpleasant that the says losing that you could and is winning is uh, you know, he's arguing in many others that is a false negative, but i don't think it's making much of a, an impression in the public to be caught our list at the moment. professor, richard stockwell. stop you the well from the author of the books frontline ukraine, crisis in the woodlands and the pigeon powder adults. after this break the the, the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still with the university of kansas emeritus professor of russian

and european politics. professor richard quin, what have you made about the russians? the use of private military contract is very us style. black was the military contract, is that we remember from the iraq war with disastrous effects. why, why does russia need a wagner group to fight in our team? of school or back much what, what do we, what do you made about of all of us. i went to a document would be a to sign up for having to apply to fragmentation of the state. it's not just about connect group if, because we also have to condition of could do with 2 forces. we also have cossacks and the cause of false major, non state to formation of the, the forces. and they go to nets, people's, you'll have the guns on the other side from a purely military point of view. the argument goes back to augusta is preserving it . first of all, it's not feeling in the reservists into the front line. some of gone, of course, but yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very, you know, maybe it's

a post modem and the phenomena of post modern statecraft is that you can mobilize different forces. west thing is, of course, is that the wagner group has a private military company. doesn't have legs that say framework, i still know law. so. yeah. de facto, do you? yeah, it's a, it's an illegal formation. i like only others. what was an am after range, the new liberal, the breaking down to the show. so you can just suggest didn't surprise you as a scholar, to hear how quickly culture was changed in uh, your opinion. you know, obviously television channels span, but russian sports does. valley stuff. sopranos composes. i, your book on ukraine talks about the long history of the i'm of the horribly violent history of ukraine and central europe and so on. but this kind of blanket banning of the rides is like the whole story and those do you have ski, did it,

did it show you a big chunk, heavier, and it's a shocking phenomenon. euclid doesn't show us the journalist in the mainstream media seemingly. they don't every day talk about the banning of uh, check off skiing whales or something. yeah. well that was got in the beginning and it was the 1812 of every chair which doesn't have a lot of bangs and kind of so that may have been insensitive, but uh, and initially of course, ok, there's been a backlash against that. the binding of culture because once you start to cancel culture, there's no winter when side junior is out to the bustle. it is talking, i think by any level, but is it, am i surprised? no, because i've been ongoing for quite a time now that to the sort of the atlantic west, there's a bunch of west out there. there's a culture of the west to civilizational, well west, but the political west, as it took shape during the cold pool of to the cold war, became much more radical. and at the same time, i've used this word. so if you use it for metrics, though it's closed it,

it's impervious to things coming from outside of it. and it then becomes a louder and louder echo chamber when only it only hear what it wants to. and when it has things from care of enough thing, and the poles saying, bad things about russia is an amplified, you know, somebody could is and maybe say, but, and it's mag, which hugely magnified. and it's got to his point. know when the 2nd cold war is at all levels worse than the 1st cold? well i don't think we had any of this intensity and in fact towards the end with coldwell, we had culture and exchanges. we had working on the international space station, but this coldwell, the intensity of it is damaging to, you know, to all the parties concerned, not just those at the end of things and the russian and but those who impose it because it changes the society and it changes in the nation ship within the state and society in the heart of to the west itself to which of course that i'm not sure

they defend necessary russians being treated as a, as a jew, some communists were in your, in world war 2, which seems to be the anecdotal stories that they hear, how russians are treated in a european union. did russia break the you and charles have because had at the un general assembly, most of humanity represented by envoys refused to vote, to condemn russia. russia or, of course, maintains it up to newland talking about bio labs and so on. there was adequate need to protect russia from what was happening there to learn to protect the civilians of don't ask a new hands, which i think is a kind of a reason that was given wasn't enjoying the slide, will buy your b invalid? did it break it and the i c, c warrant on putting these that are these, the emblematic of the fact that the, you and john, so it'd be to have tional criminal court,

all these sorts of institutions and now showing up for what they have beam which is ways to actually benefits imperial power rather than what they were designed to do . a good simply i to 2 things out. absolutely. the u. n. n d u and shot to and all of the subsequent protocols is the foundations of the international system. today, a breached so often as by the anglo american invasion of iraq earlier as for the event. so for february of 2022 you, i'm, that you actually have cause most co op use that to it through guy to self defense . as for optical 51, i'll see you and shot it doesn't allow it. and then of course, you a dense i was rushing into any imminent danger of being attacked. and of course, preemptive rule is not a with a majority, but i am working on another book i just to say on this, which i, i wasn't a fascinating element says is those last few weeks of decision making. i did most

coke, who i never would say now, but there, i've actually found something very fascinating information about how the russian political military lead broke out. and it was very significant voices been moscow who avoiding that if you actually goes 1st and it will get hit with science and then oli pm for breaking the charter, would then come out. and so some people wait until you came, forces go 1st and then you can have, i think. but the united nations and the international system, which it presents is the appeal. i mean, gladly off, we go from foreign minister and russian appeals to it. and china appeals to it, and i don't think it should be discarded. likely. okay. there's certain circumstances where national interests have to go forward as they obviously have the i c, c, something totally different. this really is the criminal challenge against,

against between and against the children's comment commissioner, if you knew of a video of a is a, is i, it was clearly i put collect. and what we've seen in the last few years is the use of patience by the political west of those institutions of international governments and international society. they've tried to do it for the you and, and it system they're fighting back as soon as you just said that so many in the global south in china and india defending it to the end. so the west is not allowed to privatize the u. n. system in turn to it's to as may, the security council unworkable. but we honestly say it's a different case. and a p c, w, the chemical weapons body. they've been effectively become part of a political west. so they no longer on telling them as institutions. they all deny that, of course, despite the o, b, c, w, getting into a terrible scandal, obviously of helping to precipitate war on, on the syria. so,

why is it, do you think that the pundits and deletes? and i suppose call us in uh they donations really believe ukraine will when, what, why do they screw? because if you cream, i mean everyone loses in war of course. but why does he play to? they actually say that ukraine, when, when i assume most people in the world would agree that on paper, russia will when, as well, yes, it has escalation dominance. it's a big country. it's called and foggy. i took resources and even some of the us generals in the quiet moments, and they do have quite a few moments. they say it one moment they're saying go says, you know, losing, then the next minute they'll say, well this is forces on that lodge. and so i'm going back to organized then they will. yeah. go. why the why the western pundents are saying this? because i not listening to those tremendous commentators as kind of douglas

mcgregor, for example, in the united states is just one example. was called use of the people labeled as foods and apologised obviously, and they're just to have douglas looks like you're in colorado. yes. they, i mean, but very providing. i mean these are, you know, expert opinions, are you good? so any voice which they don't want to have coast is condemned as being, you know, following most go talking points and so on, which is a good isn't intellect foreclosure. and one reason why i'm talking about this is that we've, i simply insist that you know, dialogue has to continue with, with every one. and you can't just suddenly close down a little discussion close down debate because it damages us. you know, i'm, you know, we'll pay to get to know the phone countries. we want to see them survive. we want to see them 5, but it takes different ways and do people have different ideas of how they should

be done, i believe in dialogue. i know tool can talk and talk and discuss just to make sure that i wouldn't be intimidated by being p. i've been, i get my share of abuse of coast as well. you can effectively be silence though, of course. i mean, as i said, we spoke to on saturday to the advisor to zalinski his troops, who former advisor and an american veteran, and a spoke against any type of censorship. because of course, the united states has that for us to me. mortgage guarantees, that's where is a, i think some americans are support lensky to build. they look bemused. leave. in fact, the j at twitter has to ban tweets in european union in britain under rule in because of britain and european law that doesn't allow setting view points being expressed on to the similarly with ideas of history, about neo nazis, min ukraine, and so for being banned under statute. why do you think your up in britain do this

knowing full well that'd be united states which is applying the bulk of the weapons . we'd never think of doing the a very that's, that's a paradox, isn't it? that as you say that the state is the most forceful, i did many wise, one of the creators of the situation that led to conflict. usually the same time, it has such a vibrant public sphere and debates which were lacking age for your side. and that, that, i mean, it doesn't exist. i think we shouldn't completely dedicated. i mean, i have an endless discussions here as well. and the people who will not be close down will not be canceled and will speak out. and you know, so the tide, not just of tied to more, but a tied to public opinion will change. so at the moment, because the events have been so shocking, and you know, amongst a whole succession from black sit on words and the depend demik and economic crisis

and will. so you know, some of the shows of, onto china then. because britain has been sending it's warships, i mean, we're not even talking about the one in 5 involved in britain or the one in for children growing up in poverty right now. at britain has been able to afford to, as in boy ships in the south china sea. well, they just moved from russia being a states and 2 of china being evil and the need to i don't know how it is easy to attack, trying to precipitate wolf or in the south china sea. it's exec, again, it's a continuation. and you know, as you say, as an academic, the way i see it now is that the political west, this is a, a military political ideological propaganda. informational network established during the 1st cold war and never be mobilized entirely of to the end of the 1st.

caldwell 198991 and now it's sort of back in full flood. but without the guardrails and without the, you know, some of the y statesman of the earlier generation of thinking of eisenhower, you know, say what you like about him. he was a great leader and so was dr. kennedy. today we have leaders to simply do not understand. and then even kissing gab who's coming up to raise and you can is hundreds, best i think. and who always wants for washington's in the west in general, should not be in a similar pain. yes. really a in conflict with most going by james, and always try to make sure that washington had the best relationship with one, then they had with each other and the same as kissing a triangle. and you did the moment this binding administration. and of course, it's with its supporters of blundering into a single telling us conflict with 2 major powers because there was some, this is almost seems deliberate, antagonism of publication over time. well, the,

the high level political visits all of this talk, which goes against if there shanghai communicate and all the fundamental you relationships, which was stablished towards the end of the 1st caldwell professor richards aqua. thank you. my pleasure. have that set for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episode, but until then you can give it to us by the social media. if it's not extensive in your country and had to travel going underground tv on rumbled or come to watching you and all that sense of going undergrad. so you just have to say the the,

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