during the set comes round, but it's certainly going to be fascinating to see what happens. the something tells me that they won't be the last time we have, you know, nazi, to discuss those elections. never shipped them or color missed on political analysts. thanks very much. that's all for this. all my names be just scott's weatherbug with more and about 30 minutes time the, [000:00:00;00] the time out sooner. time seeing welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai. in the u. a. in the last week of the mass arrests of pro democracy activists in london,

protesting the coordination of charles, the 3rd russian celebration. the 78. all of us read the winning. it's winning. we'll go to m the crushing of fascism. this is moscow claims it is again today inviting nazis in your a bomb to the teeth by washington, london, and brussels. and they donation media was going to highlight the parent scale to back celebration this year. as a result of what explains with depleted military resources and forces due to russia's invasion of ukraine on saturdays show, we spoke to dan rice developer especially advise that to ukraine's forces commander in chief general the others, me to hear how the war is going from the great inside. now joining me from counter be in the u. k for different viewpoint. give me is professor richards aqua, kent universities emeritus professor of russian and european politics and the author of the russia sca fake news and genuine threats. thank you so much. a professor for coming back on the show. i don't bill so much has happened since you last spoke to us in december before the february move by russia. i

suppose i should just ask you how, how it is over there in the britain where i, i'll give you a call and actually do just listen how. how is it in britain of the coverage of jose victory today? uh, commemorating the victory over the nazis and we'll go to as well. i mean, yeah, that it wasn't much mentioned, but the well of course we've had a lot of excitement with the see prime ministers in the course of the year. several finance ministers dispatching the other so it's been a very exciting time in the u. k. politics. and obviously the exit question is still unresolved about how that's going to be sorted out in the future. but as you say, for vig today, it doesn't get any feature that much, and it's been over shadowed by the coordination as you said on the 6th of may. do you think it's boldly successful because i mean, your book frontline, ukraine. i tell everyone to read, it's

a required reading for the context of what we are witnessing on our media about ukraine in nature. countries very different to those and the global. so the coverage of what's happening in ukraine will be successful too. i know your other book on this information about russia, how western europe, united states, has been the demonizing russia because they've had years of practice in preparing for once we have any grain. yes. what uh, i mean, i've been wondering about the slide towards confrontation uh, drove coast. fuel for us could have anticipated a full scale off this hold. but to the slide has been continuing for almost 20 years. you can save on saturday from the very 1st days of german unification, 1990 nato enlargement. then throughout the 199 cuz because people forget it was bose yes and who in december 1994 1st talked about a cold peace which was

a signal that the post cold war european security older was not satisfactory. there was dissatisfaction, obviously from the russian side and all so they have moved. well, that was one of the conditions of not just, nathan, not gonna be, you know, paying union enlargement. i've always argued that should have been a false copenhagen criteria and that is working positively towards peace and you know, the conciliation from the old cold war positions. unfortunately, coldwell became embedded both institutionally and ideologically, which is latest to where we are today. but the others would say that i have, julian is anjanette to be always used to say there's a recycling of money into weapons manufacturers. b 's does make make money, but i didn't know just just in the past few days. the jailing of some french extreme is neo nazis returning from ukraine. any dangers like uh, uh, what happened a enough gather some with brittany in the united states supported forces that would

eventually turn back on the united states in 911. the neo nazis are going to come back from ukraine and on the west in europe. what i think it's a is that there's parts of it, but it's a much, much bigger blow back in prospect. because uh, this conflict is uh, it won't go down to you only in its early stages. i mean, however dreadful, that may sound and it's awful have goes, uh, but uh, the blood back back on to western societies. you know, figured town of people who've been with the old society is that going to suffer from this people who become in new to war, to killing to violence. and of course, this is going to, yeah, if you got to in the societies themselves, it's a huge danger. plus, of course, the very fact of a conflict like this in forces, you know, the polarized political opponent, guys ation, is we see as intense in united states, it's quite strong in france,

in the u. k. there's certainly so many unresolved contradictions, that you know, that the, the context of an external conflict, internal opponent, guys ation. it's heading towards very choppy waters. indeed. although i noticed that you have spoken about a very uh, nathan. not would you buy pauses on in the united states to a lesser extent in your design. would you just doesn't, they don't want war and it doesn't matter whether you republican or democrat. you just don't simple the existing stages quote of, i suppose nato expansion. it's a fascinating development, especially in united states where you have the old fashioned conservative guide to people that patrick buchanan and the larger paleo conservative movement, very critical of the war. then you have old fashioned state to. so i'm thinking, for example, to quincy institute for responsible statecraft,

which is doing this too. and. and then of course, you have the, the old fashioned and the drum for sympathetic to the old left wing the peace movements, massachusetts piece movement as all sorts of organizations. and individuals, and it's actually, yeah, that's one of the only encouraging signs now is that these as a general debate in the united states about this, unfortunately in the u. k, this is very limited. yes, the movements, the stop, the war coalition still exists. the campaign for nuclear development is still active, even though i a holes, the demonstrations against the nato policy in london. now. yes, really good has been less than during the 1st world war. yes, it's a history. yeah. yeah. and data insight to the stop and was hoping to meet in saint pancras. i church and you know, and the conway whole. and indeed it's,

it's absolutely scandalous because the whole point of a civilized society is that you can have discussion and open debate. and unfortunately, it's become figure out how to do that is unfortunately in the u. k. above, oh, i think the influence and initially there's a very interesting and lively discussions. and in germany popular protests between the u. k. in england, i mean i perhaps in scotland, why is this different? but in england it's very limited. doesn't surprise you that since we last spoke to each other, people like angler muck level, people came out to explain that the minutes agreement. do you think we discussed in that just him for addition going undergrad, december 2021. that that was a, a basically a point to um, ukraine. further in preparation as it was a bombing of course the civilians have done yet. it's going to ends, which provoked as the russian see it and the response from alaska. yeah. um,

she did say that in fact twice and so did for a long day as a member of the norm and the format. i love this as concerning miracle. i just wonder whether she's saying that no, because she's getting so much flag because she's supported all the way through the building of nodes to him to in fact, in hosting one. 0 yeah. and she was absolutely committed to the continuation of the energy partnership between germany and russia. and so when the that fell apart in february last year, that she, in a sense, found herself politically exposed. and as we know, she was a mazda in maneuver political maneuver. so i wonder why the earlier but the worst thing of course, about minutes is that russia was constantly exalted to fulfill the age of a named obligations. was very specific, ukrainian obligations, no one with particular putting any pressure on them. so clearly i think that both i can give them a color and although, and i have a lot to answer for,

i will try so interesting. we met cool in the lead up to the events last of last february 2022 was very active, diplomatically. i know i, i do support that terminal. i know that, you know, applaud attempts to find a diplomatic solution that didn't lead to anything. and it just shows the ways that you pay leaders like to action that day. you know, they, they, you know, that perhaps unknown schultz before the events also was active diplomatically. um, but you know, the decisions were taken in washington and so which once again very sadly, my view as an old fashioned coolest. who wanted to say over the years i've been calling for pam continental vision, some sort of vision of unity film at least been deflect if i stop. and instead of which we ended up in this hyper atlanta system, which basically marginalized, the old what i have now there is cool there legacy powers that fear on says germany, that's a u k. the wheels my tongue,

but it's not actually engaging with anything except that substantive cause of i know i know from some friends in joining the war on iraq, but child the goal, the black and rehabilitation of neo nazis in vichy. we must remember and actually isn't the question that actually was that always a lie that the, even from, with the brand on europe was always a marshal plan, vassal states. and we would just told the lies in our school books, because basically, as we know, the size of the rams teen based, i don't know how many us soldiers are uh, in the country or speaking to me from right now. it is always uh, active in lock step for us imperialism around the world as well as you, you mentioned new york, and there was the united kingdom didn't join in vietnam. interesting so, so leaders do make a different entitled, wilson, we refused to, to commit u. u. k. forces to viet nam us to ended, so happened the last and well,

he resigned to 1976 that i mentioned not long enough to x and t in my view is still the greatest prime minister. we had a new k b on xterra, some in the african countries that may not, may not support that. and they of course, um you, the fact is, i presume from where you all the same media, bbc, i think the, the boss is bbc is that equates over a loan, arranging loans, devoris johnson. but they're all paging rusher is losing this, this was the food chain is either eel or about to be over thrown. do you think people believe these stories as to how far rusher is last miscalculated, then it's actually the end of russia before we soon witness the end of china. that seems to be a narrative coming from reuters and associated press again, once again when control of the contract pending, you can ask the states and united states, they say, you know, it took a coast and of course it was pushing forward a different perspective in the u k,

we now have jeep a news and we have some, uh, kind of that not huge audiences yet. but interesting enough the, the mass media is very strongly of one voice saying what you just said. but then you're going to have in the daily mail. and i know mostly respect peter hitchens, who's being making the, you know, the different point of your perspective and more balanced. view of to say this is an oil for, well, really must find a way to find a diplomatic way out of it and west and to i'm for less than that. yes. as losing that you can is winning is uh, you know, he's arguing in many others that is a false negative, but i don't think it's making much of a, an impression in the public to be caught our list at the moment. professor, richard stockwell, stop you. the well from the author of the books frontline ukraine, crisis in the woodlands and the pigeon patter dogs after this break

the the the, the,

the, the welcome back to going underground. i'm still with the university of kent's emeritus professor of russian and european politics. professor richard sat quin, what have you made about the russians? the use of private military contract is very us style. black, who is the military contract is that we remember from the iraq war with disastrous effects. why, why does russia need a wagner group to fighting a team of school or back what, what, what do we, what do you made about of a lot of yeah, i went to a document would be a to sign up for we're having a budget fragmentation of the state, it's not just about connect group if, because we also have to condition of could do with 2 forces. we also have cossacks

and the cause of force, major known state to um, formation of the, the forces and they do it the next people's you'll have the guns on the other side from a purely military point of view. the argument goes back to augusta is preserving it . first of all, it's not feeling in the reserve rest into the front line. some of gone, of course, but yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very, you know, maybe it's a post modem and the phenomena of postmodern, statecraft is that you can mobilize different forces. west thing is, of course, is that the wagner group has a private military or a company doesn't have like just that a framework. i still know law. so yeah. a de facto, do you? yeah. it's a, it's an illegal formation. i like only others. what was it? i am after range, the new liberal, the breaking down to the show as you can just suggest, didn't surprise you as a scholar, to hear how quickly culture was changed in uh, your opinion. you know, obviously television channels span,

but russian sports does. valley stuff. sopranos composes, i, your book on ukraine talks about the long history of the i'm of the horribly violent history of ukraine and central europe and so on. but this kind of blanket banning of the rights is like the whole story. and those to have ski did it, did it to show you a big chunk, heavier, and it's a shocking phenomenon. euclid doesn't show us the john list in the mainstream media, seemingly. they don't every day talk about the banning of uh, check off skiing whales or something. yeah. well that was good in the beginning and it was the 1812 the average which doesn't have a lot of bangs and kind of. so that may have been insensitive, but uh and initially of course, ok, there's been a backlash against that, the binding of culture because once you start to cancel culture, there's no enter. once that junior is out to the bustle, it is talking, i think, by any level, but is it, am i surprised? no, because i've been ongoing for quite

a time now. that to the sort of the atlantic west, there's a bunch of west out there. there's a culture of the west to civilizational web west, but the political west, as it took shape during the cold pool of to the cold war, became much more radical. and at the same time, i've used this word. so to use it for metric though it's closed it, it's impervious to things coming from outside of it. and it then becomes a louder and louder echo chamber when only it only hey, what it wants to. and when it has things from care of enough thing, and the polls saying bad things about russia is an amplified, you know, somebody could is and maybe say, but, and it's mag, which hugely magnified. and it's got to his point. know when the 2nd cold wall is at all levels was then the 1st cold. well i don't think we had any of this intensity and in fact towards the end with coldwell, we had culture and exchanges. we had working on the international space station,

but this coldwell, the intensity of it is damaging to, you know, to all the parties concerned, not just those at the end of things and the russian and but those who impose it because it changes the society and it changes the relationship between the state and society in the heart of to the west itself, to which of course, and i'm not sure they defend necessary russians being treated as a, as a jew, some communists were in your, in world war 2, which seems to be the anecdotal stories and talking about bio labs and so on. there was adequate nature but i am working on another believe there. and so