the time out sooner time seeing welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. a. in the last week of the mass, the rest of pro democracy activists in london protesting the coordination of charles, the 3rd russian celebration. the $78.00 of us read the winning. it's winning will to m the crushing of fascism. this is moscow claims it is a game today, inviting nazis in your a bomb to the teeth by washington, london, and brussels and they donation media was going to highlight the parent scale to back celebration this here as a result of what it claims with depleted military resources and forces due to russia's invasion of ukraine on saturdays show, we spoke to dan rice, developer, especially advisor to ukraine's forces commander in chief general the others, me to hear how the war is going from the great inside. now joining me from cancer be in the u. k for different viewpoint. give me is professor richards aqua, can universities emeritus professor of russian and european politics and the author

of the russia sca fake news and genuine threats. thank you so much. a professor for coming back on the show. i don't bill so much has happened since you last spoke to us in december before the february move by russia. i suppose i should just ask you how, how it is over there in the britain where i, i'll give you a call and actually do just listen how. how is it in britain of the coverage of jose victory day at commemorating the victory over the nazis? and we'll go to as well. i mean, yeah, that it wasn't much mentioned, but the well of course we've had a lot of excitement with the see prime ministers in the course of the year. several finance ministers dispatching the other so it's been a very exciting time in the u. k. politics and obviously the exit question is still unresolved about how that's going to be sorted out in the future. but as you say for vic to day, it doesn't get

a feature that much. and it's been over shadowed by the congregation, as you said on the 6th of may. do you think it's totally successful? because i'm in your book from 9 ukraine. i tell everyone to read, it's a required reading for the context of what we are witnessing on our media about ukraine, a nature of countries, very different to those in the global. so the coverage of what's happening in ukraine, broadly successful to i know your other book on this information about russia, how western europe, the united states, has been demonizing rusher because they've had years of practice in preparing for once we happening in ukraine. yes. what uh, i mean, i've been wondering about the slide towards confrontation uh, drove coast fuel for us. could've anticipated the full scale off this hold. but to the slide has been continuing for almost 20 years. you could save on saturday from the very 1st days of german unification,

1990 nato enlargement. then throughout the 199, cuz because people forget to it with bonus, yes. and who in december 1994 1st talked about a cold peace, which was a signal that the post cold war, european security older was not satisfactory. there was dissatisfaction, obviously from the russian side. and also the, uh, well that was one of the conditions of, uh, not just, nathan, not gonna be, you know, pen union enlargement. i've always argued that should have been a false copenhagen criteria. and that is working positively towards peace. and uh, you know, the conciliation from the old cold war positions. unfortunately, coldwell became embedded both institutionally and ideologically, which is latest to where we are today. but the others would say that again, julian is anjanette and we always used to say there's a recycling of money into weapons manufacturers. b 's does make make money,

but i didn't know just just in the past few days. the jailing of some french extreme is neo nazis returning from ukraine. any changes like uh, uh, what happened a enough against um when britain in the united states supported forces would eventually turn back on the united states in 911. the neo nazis are going to come back from ukraine and haunt western europe. what i think it's a is that is part of it, but it's a much, much big blow back in prospect. because uh, this conflict is uh, it won't go down, you only in its early stages. i mean, however dreadful, that may sound and it's awful have goes, uh, but uh, the blow back back on to western societies. you know, figured town of people who've been with the old society is that going to suffer from this people who become in new to war, to killing to violence. and of course, this is going to, uh, you know, if you're not doing the societies themselves, it's

a huge danger. plus, of course, the very fact of a conflict like this in forces, you know, the polarized political opponent, guys ation, is we see as intense in united states, it's quite strong in france, in the u. k. there's certainly so many unresolved contradictions, that you know, that the, the context of an external conflict, internal opponent, guys ation. it's heading towards very choppy waters. indeed. although i noticed that you have spoken about a very uh, nascent movements uh which are not. would you buy pauses on in the united states to a lesser extent in your design. but you just doesn't, they don't want war. and it doesn't matter whether you're republican or democrat, you just don't support the existing stages quote of, i suppose nato expansion. it's a fascinating development,

especially in united states where you have the old fashioned conservative guide to people that patrick buchanan and the larger paleo conservative movement, very critical of the will. then you have old fashioned state to. so i'm thinking, for example, to quincy institute for responsible statecraft, which is a jing this to and, and then of course, you have the, the old fashioned and the drum for sympathetic to the old left wing the peace movements. massachusetts piece movement as all sorts of organizations and individuals. and it's actually, yeah, that's one of the only encouraging signs now is that these as a general debate in the united states about this, unfortunately in the u. k, this is very limited. yes, the movements, the stop, the war coalition still exists. the campaign for nuclear development is still active, even though higher holes, the demonstrations against the nato policy in london. now. yes,

it has been less than during the 1st world war. yes. it's a history. yeah. yeah. and data insight to the something was hoping to meet in saint pancras church and, you know, and the conway whole. and indeed it's, it's absolutely scandalous because the whole point of a civilized society is that you can have discussion and open debate. and unfortunately, it's become figure out how to do that is unfortunately in the u. k. above. oh, i think i'm feeling submitted today. there's a very interesting and lively discussions, and then germany popular protests between the u. k. in england, i mean i, pads and scotland. why is this different? but in england it's very limited. doesn't surprise you that since we last spoke to each other, people like anglo muck level. people came out to explain that the minutes agreements. do you think we discussed in that just temper just going undergrad december 2021. that that was a, a basically a point to um,

ukraine. further in preparation as it was a bombing of course the civilians are doing. yeah. it's going to ask which provoked as the russian see it and the response for bosco. yeah. and she did say that in fact twice and so did for a long day as a member of the enrollment, the format. i love this as concerning miracle. i just wonder whether she's saying that no, because she's getting so much flag because she's supported all the way through the building of nodes, team 2, i'm fat and hosting one earlier. and she was absolutely committed to the continuation of the energy partnership between germany and russia. and so when the that fell apart in february last year, that she, in a sense, found herself politically exposed. and as we know, she was a mazda in maneuver political maneuver. so i wonder why the earlier but the worst

thing of course, about minutes is that russia was constantly exalted to fulfill the age of a named obligations. well as the very specific ukrainian obligations no one with particular putting any pressure on them. so clearly i think that both i can give them a call and although, and have a lot to answer for, i will try so interesting. we met cool in the lead up to the events last of last february 2022 was very active, diplomatically. i know i do support that terminal. i know that, you know, applaud attempts to find a diplomatic solution that can lead to anything. and it just shows the ways that you pay leaders like to action that they, you know, they, they, you know, that perhaps unknown fills before the events also was active diplomatically. um, but you know, the decisions were taken in washington and so which once again very sadly, my view as an old fashioned coolest. who wanted to say over the years i've been

calling for pam continental vision, some sort of vision of unity film at least been to vladivostok and instead of which we ended up in his hyper atlanta system, which basically marginalized the old. what i have now does cool there's legacy powers that's free on, says joe many times. so you guides the wheels my tongue, but i'm not actually engaging with anything except that substantive cause of i know i know from some friends in joining the war on iraq. but charles, the goal, the black and rehabilitation of neo nazis and vc, we must remember, i'm actually using the question that actually was that always a lie. that the, even from when he branch on europe was always a marshall plan, vassal states. and we would just told the lies in our schoolbooks because basically, as we know, the size of the rams teen based, i don't know how many us soldiers are uh, in the country or speaking to me for them right now. it is always, uh, active in lock step for us imperialism around the world. well, actually,

you mentioned new york, and there was the united kingdom didn't join in vietnam. interesting. so the latest do make a different entitled wilson, we refused to, to commit u u. k. forces to vet them as to any did so happened the last and well he resigned doing 1970 fitness that i mentioned not long afterwards. and he, in my view, is still the greatest prime minister we had in the okay, to be honest, there are some in african countries that may not, we don't support that. and date of course you. the fact is, i presume, from where you all the same media, bbc, i think the, the boss of the bbc is the quits over a loan, arranging loans, devoris johnson. but they're all paging rusher is losing this, this war that puts in his either eel or about to be over the throne. do you think people believe these stories as to how far rusher is last miscalculated, then it's actually the end of russia before we soon witness the end of china. that

seems to be a narrative coming from reuters and associated press again, once again when control of the contract pending, you can use the states and united states that is a, you know, it took a cost and of course it was pushing forward a different perspective in the u. k, we now have g b news and we have some, uh, kind of that not huge audiences yet. but interesting enough, the mass media is very strongly of one voice saying what you just said. beginning the other hand, you have in the daily mail and i know mislead respect. peter hitchens, who's being making the, you know, the different point of your perspective and more buttons to you of to say this is an oil for, well, really must find a way to find a diplomatic way out of it. and western triumphalism that just says losing that you could and is winning is uh, you know, he's arguing in many others that is a false negative. but i don't think it's making much of a,

an impression in the public to be caught our list at the moment. professor richard talk well, stop you. the law from the author of the books frontline ukraine, crisis in the woodlands and the pigeon patter dogs after this break the the the same wrong just don't you have to shape out the application and engagement

trails. when so many find themselves will support we choose to look so common ground the the welcome back to going undergoing i'm still with the university of kansas marriages professor of russian and european politics. professor richard quin, what have you made about the russians? the use of private military contract is v u. s. style blackwell was a military contract, is that we remember from the rock over disastrous effects. why? why does russia need a wagner group to fighting a team of score or back much what? what do we, what do you made about of the little? yeah. i went to a document would be a to sign up for we're having a budget fragmentation of the state. it's not just about connect group if,

because we also have to condition of could do with 2 forces. we also have cossacks, and of course the 4th major known state uh, formation of the uh, the forces and the good, the nets people's. you'll have the guns on the other side from a purely military in point of view. the argument goes back to augusta is preserving it. first of all, it's not feeling in the reservists into the front line. some of gone, of course. but yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very, you know, maybe it's a post modem and the phenomena of postmodern, statecraft is that you can mobilize different forces. worst thing is, of course, is that involved in a group as a private military or a company doesn't have like just that a framework i still know low. so. yeah, a de facto, do you? yeah, it's a, it's an illegal formation. i like only others. what was it? i am after range, the new liberal, the breaking down to the children. so you can just suggest didn't surprise you as a scholar, to hear how quickly culture was changed in your opinion. you know,

obviously television channels span, but russian sports. does ballet stuff? sopranos composes, i, your book on ukraine talks about the long history of the, i'm of the horribly violent history of the ukraine and central europe and so on. but this kind of blanket banning of the rights is like the whole story. and those to have ski did it, did it to show you a big chunk, heavier and it's a shocking phenomena. euclid doesn't show us the journalist in the mainstream media seemingly. they don't every day talk about the banning of uh, check off ski in wales or something. yeah. well that was got in the beginning and it was the $1812.00 of every chair which doesn't have a lot of bangs and kind of. so that may have been insensitive, but uh and initially of course no. ok, there's been a backlash against that. the binding of culture because once you start to cancel culture, there's no winter when side june use out to the bottle. it is talking,

i think, by any level, but is it, am i surprised? no, because i've been ongoing for quite a time now. that to the sort of the atlantic west, there's a bunch of west out there. there's a culture of west to civilizational web west, but the political west, as it took shape during the cold pool of to the cold war, became much more radical. and at the same time, i've used this word. so to use it for metric though it's closed it, it's impervious to things coming from outside of it. and it then becomes a louder and louder echo chamber when only it only hear what it wants to. and when it has things from care of enough thing, and the poles saying, bad things about russia is an amplified, you know, somebody could is and maybe say, but, and it's mag, which hugely magnified. and it's got to his point. know when the 2nd cold well is at all levels, was then the 1st cold. well i don't think we had any of this intensity and in fact

towards the end with coldwell, we had culture and exchanges. we had working on the international space station, but this coldwell, the intensity of it is damaging to, you know, to all the parties concerned, not just those at the end of things and the russian and but those who impose it because it changes the society and it changes your nation ship within the state and society in the heart of to the west itself to which of course that i'm not sure they defend necessary russians being treated as a, as a jew, some communists were in your, in world war 2, which seems to be the anecdotal stories that they hear how russians are treated in a european union, did russia break the you and charles have because had at the un general assembly, most of humanity represented by envoys refused to vote, condemn russia. russia of course maintains it up to newland talking about bio labs and so when there was adequate need to protect russia from what was happening,

they had learned to protect the civilians of don't ask a new hands, which i think is a kind of a reason that was given, wasn't enjoying the slide, will buy your p invalid, did it break it and the i c, c warrant on putting these that are these emblematic of the fact that the you in charge. so it'd be through hash, no criminal court, all the sorts of institutions and now showing up for what they have beam, which is ways to actually benefits imperial power rather than what they were designed to do. a good simply i to 2 things out. absolutely. the u. n. n d u, and shot to and all of the subsequent protocols is the foundations of the international system today, a breached so often as by the anglo american invasion of a dog, kindly, a, as for the event. so for february of 2022 you, i'm,

that you actually have cause most co op use that it does right of self defense as of optical 51 of the un shot to doesn't allow it. and then, of course, you would then say was the russian and any imminent danger of being attacked. and of course, preemptive rule is not a with a majority, but i am working on another book kind of just to say on this, which i, i, one of the fascinating elements is, is those last few weeks of decision making and the most co, who and i won't say now, but there, i've actually found something very fascinating information about how the russian political military lead broke out. and it was very significant voices in moscow who avoiding that if you ask that goes 1st and it will get hit with science and then oli pm for breaking the charter, would then come out. and so some people wait until you came, forces go 1st and then you can have, i think. but the united nations and the international system,

which it presents is the appeal. i mean lovely off we go from foreign minister and russia appeals to it. and china appeals to it, and i don't think it should be discarded. likely. okay. there's certain circumstances where national interest have to go forward as a office, even though i see see something totally different. this really is the criminal charge against, against putting in against the children's comment. commissioner, if you knew of a video of a is a, is i, it was clearly a political act. and what we've not seen in the last few years is the use of patience by the political west of those institutions of international governments and international society. they've tried to do it with you and then it system they're fighting back as soon as you just said that somebody in the global south in china and india defending it to the end. so the west is not allowed to privatize

the u. n. system. in turn to it's to as may, the security council unworkable. but the i c say is a different case. and a p c w, the chemical weapons body. they've been effectively become part of the political west. so they no longer on telling them as institutions. they all deny that, of course, despite the o, b, c, w, getting into a terrible scandal, obviously of helping to precipitate war on, on syria. so, why is it, do you think that the pundits and deletes? and i suppose call us in uh they donations really believe ukraine will when, what, why do they screw? because if you cream, i mean everyone loses in war of course. but why does he play to? they actually say that ukraine, when, when i assume most people in the world would agree that on paper, russia will with as well. yes, it has escalation dominance. it's

a big country is called and foggy. i took resources and even some of the us generals in the quiet moments, and they do have quite a few moments. they say it one moment they're saying, go says, you know, the, the latest on the international, disturbing images from don't past, has been to room had to believe guns were public's internal affairs. when history is a long step and wounded in local, solve the shop long polls to this is the responsibility for these crimes lies not only with the key of regime but also with those who supply them with weapons, rushes out in bosses that to the un condemns the west for turning a blind eye to clear the trumpet teeth and supplying heavy a weapon to use to that tax on going back to 1000000000 areas to supreme election council of tech. yeah, announces a presidential election run all scheduled on may at 28th us off the 9th or at the

top. some kind of dates which the 50 percent rush hold.