the, the when somebody tells you who they are, you should believe them. the same applies to nato's current. secretary, generally on stilton, for an interview with the washington post of nature, isn't practicable. it drives in the brain conflict, and that the alliance is anything defensive. the

time out sooner time seeing welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. a. and the last week of the mass arrest of pro democracy activists in london, protesting the coordination of charles, the 3rd russian, celebrated the 78. and of us read the winning, it's winning will to m the crushing of fascism. this is moscow claims. it is a game today fighting nazis in your a bomb to the teeth by washington, london, and brussels. neither nation media is going to highlight the apparent scale to back celebration this here is resolved or what explains with depleted military resources and forces due to russia's invasion of ukraine. on saturdays show, we spoke to dan rice development special advisor to ukraine's um forces commander in chief general, the others, me to hear how the war is going from the great inside. now joining me from counter being that you came for different view point. give me is professor richard cycle. kent universities ameritas professor of russian and european politics,

and the author of the rush escaped, fake news and genuine threats. thank you so much. a professor for coming back on the show. i don't know so much has happened since you last spoke to us in december before the february move by russia. i suppose i should just ask you how, how it is over there in the britain where i give you context. you, did you listen? how, how is it in britain, the coverage of jose victory today at commemorating the victory over the nazis? and we'll go to as well. i mean, yeah, that it wasn't much mentioned, but the, well, of course we've had a lot of excitement with the see prime ministers in the course of the year. several finance ministers dispatching the other so it's been a very exciting time in the u. k. politics. and obviously the exit question is still on resolved about how that's going to be sorted out in the future. but as you say for vic to day, it doesn't get any feature that much,

and it's been over shadowed by the coordination as you said on the 6th of may get ahold of the successful because i mean, your book frontline, ukraine. i tell everyone to read, it's a required readings of the context of what we are witnessing on our media about ukraine in nature. countries very different to those and the global. so the coverage of what's happening in ukraine will be successful too. i know your other book on this information about russia, how western europe, united states has been demonizing russia because they've had years of practice in preparing for once we happening in ukraine. yes. what uh, i mean, i've been wondering about a slide towards confrontation uh, drove coast. fuel for us could have anticipated a full scale off the sort, but to the slide has been continuing for almost 20 years. you could save on saturday from the very 1st days of german unification,

1990 nato enlargement. then throughout the $199.00 cuz because people forget it was bose yes and who in december 1994 1st talked about a cold peace which was a signal that the post cold war year to pay and security odor was not satisfactory . there was dissatisfaction, obviously from the russian side and all so the, well, that was one of the conditions of not just, nathan, not gonna be, you know, paying union enlargement. i've always argued that should have been a false copenhagen criteria. and that is working positively towards piece and you know, the conciliation from the old cold war positions. unfortunately, coldwell became embedded both institutionally and ideologically, which is made as to where we are today. but the others would say that i have. julian is anjanette to be always used to say is a recycling of money into weapons manufacturers. b 's does make make money,

but i didn't know just just in the past few days. the jailing of some french extreme is neo nazis returning from ukraine. any dangers, like uh, uh, what happened a enough gather some with brittany in the united states supported forces that would eventually turn back on the united states in 911. the neo nazis are going to come back from ukraine and on to western europe. what i think it's a is that there's parts of it, but it's a much, much big blow back in prospect. because uh, this conflict is uh, it won't go down to you only in its early stages. i mean, however tactful. that may sound and it's awful of cost, but to the blood back back on to west things. this idea is, you know, figured town of people who been the old societies are going to suffer from this. people who become in near to war to killing through violence. and of course, this is going to have forgotten the societies themselves. it's

a huge stranger plus of course, the very fact of a conflict like this in forces, you know, the polarized political opponent, guys ation, is we see as intense in united states, it's quite strong in france, in the u. k. there's certainly so many unresolved contradictions, that you know, that the, the context of an external conflict, internal opponent, guys ation. it's heading towards very choppy waters. indeed. although i noticed that you have spoken about a very, a nascent movements uh which are not. would you buy pauses on in the united states to a lesser extent in your design? would you just doesn't, they don't want war. and it doesn't matter whether you republican or democrat, you just don't support the existing stages quote of, i suppose nato expansion. it's a fascinating development, especially in united states where you have the old fashioned conservative guide,

the people that patrick buchanan and the larger paleo conservative movement, very critical of the war. then you have old fashioned state. so i'm thinking, for example, the queen c institute for responsible statecraft, which is a jing this to and, and then of course you have the, the old fashioned and the drum for sympathetic to the old left wing the piece movements, massachusetts piece movement as all sorts of organizations and individuals, and it's actually, yeah, that's one of the only encouraging signs now is that these as a general debate in the united states about this, unfortunately in the u. k, this is very limited. yes, the movements, the stop, the war coalition still exists. the campaign for nuclear development is still active, even though higher holes, the demonstrations against the nato policy in london. now. yes,

so good has been less than during the 1st world war. yes. is that hysteria and data insight to discover what was hoping to meet in saint pancras? i church and you know, and conway whole. and indeed it's, it's absolutely scandalous because the whole point of a civilized society is that you can have discussion, an open debate. and unfortunately, it's become figure out how to do that is unfortunately in the u. k. above all, i think that and feeling submitted today. there's a very interesting and lively discussions, and then germany popular protests between the u. k. in england, i mean i pads and scotland. why is this different? but in england it's very limited. doesn't surprise you that since we last spoke to each other, people like anglo muck level. people came out to explain that the minutes agreements do you think we discussed in that just temper edition going undergrad? december 2021. that that was a, a basically a point to um,

ukraine. further in preparation as it was a bombing, of course the civilians were doing. yeah. it's gonna ends which provoked as the russian see it and the response for bosco. yeah. and she did say that in fact twice and so did for us for a long day as a member of the enrollment, the format i love this as concerning miracle. i just wonder whether she's saying that no, because she's getting so much flag because she supported all the way through the building of nodes, team 2, i'm fat and hosting one. 0 yeah. and she was absolutely committed to the continuation of the energy partnership between germany and the one particular bank of america. and although, and the rest of the the welcome back to going under

brian, i'm still with the university of kent's emeritus professor of russian and european politics. professor richard sat going, what have you made about the russians? the use of private military contract is v u. s. style black with the military contracts is that we remember from the rock over disastrous effects. why, why does russia need a wagner group to fighting a team of score or back much what it will do? what do you made about of all of them? yeah, well, one document would be a to sign up for. we're having a budget fragmentation of the state. it's not just about connect group if, because we also have to condition of could do with 2 forces. we also have cossacks and new cause or false major, non state to formation of the, the forces and they do it the next people's you'll have the guns on the other side from a purely military and point of view. the argument goes back to augusta is preserving it. first of all, it's not feeling in the reservists into the front line. some of the con, of course,

but yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very, you know, maybe it's a post modem, a phenomenal of postmodern, statecraft is that you can move a lot of different sources. what thing is, of course, is that the wagner group has a private military or a company doesn't have likes that say framework, i still know low. so. yeah. de facto, do you? yeah. it's a, it's an illegal formation. i like only others. what was it? i am after range the new liberal, the breaking down to the to the so you can just suggest did it surprise you as a scholar, to hear how quickly culture was changed in uh, your opinion. obviously television channels span, but russian sports starz ballet. starz sopranos compose is uh your book on ukraine talks about the long history of the i'm of the horribly violent history of the ukraine and central europe and so on. but like this kind of blanket banning of the

rights is like the whole story and those, do you have ski, did it, did it show? okay, a big chunk, heavier and it's a shocking phenomenon. euclid doesn't show us the journalist in the mainstream media seemingly. they don't every day talk about the banning of uh, check off skiing whales or something. yeah. well that was got in the beginning and it was the 1812 of every chair which doesn't have a lot of bangs and kind of so that may have been insensitive, but uh, and initially of course, no, there's been a backlash against that. the binding of culture because once you start to cancel culture, there's no end to one side. jeannie is out to the buffalo. it is talking, i think by any level, but is it, am i surprised? no, because i've been ongoing for quite a time now that to the sort of the atlantic west, there's a bunch of west out there. there's a culture of the west to civilizational web west, but the political west, as it took shape during the cold pool of to the cold war, became much more radical. and at the same time,

i've used this word. so to use it for metrics, though it's closed it, it's impervious to things coming from outside of it. and it then becomes a louder and louder echo chamber when only it only hear what it wants to. and when it has things from care of enough thing, and the polls saying bad things, well gosh, there is an amplified, you know, somebody could is and maybe say, but, and it's mag, which hugely magnified. and it's got to his point. know when the 2nd cold war is at all levels worse than the 1st cold? well i don't think we had any of this intensity and in fact towards the end with coldwell, we had culture and exchanges. we had working on the international space station, but this coldwell, the intensity of it is damaging to, you know, to all the parties concerned, not just those at the end of things and the russian and but those who impose it because it changes the society and it changes in the nation shifted into state and society in the heart of to the west itself to which of course it,

i'm not sure they defend necessary russians being treated as a, as a jew, some communists were in your, in world war 2, which seems to be the anecdotal stories that they hear how russians are treated in a european union, did russia break the you and charles have because had the un general assembly, most of humanity represented by envoys refused to vote, to condemn russia. russia or of course, maintains it up to newland talking about bio labs. and so when there was adequate need to protect russia from what was happening, they've learned to protect the civilians are known as getting new hands, which i think is a kind of a reason that was given, wasn't enjoying the slide, will buy your b invalid. did it break it and the i c, c warrant on putting these that are these a emblematic of the fact that the,

you and john, so these 2 have tional criminal court. all these sorts of institutions and now showing up for what they have beam, which is ways to actually benefits imperial power rather than what they were designed to do. i guess simply that the 2 things out. absolutely. the un and the un charter and all of the subsequent protocols is the foundations of the international system today, a breached so often as by the anglo american invasion of a dog, kindly, a, as for the event. so for february 2022. you, i'm the yes, of course, most co op use that to it, the guy to of self defense. as of article 51, i'll see you and show it to those are loud. and then, of course, you would then say was us and any imminent danger of being attacked. and of course, preemptive rule is not a with a majority, but i am working on another book i just to say on this, which i, i wasn't

a fascinating elements, is, is those last few weeks of decision making and then most go, well who and what i'm saying now, but there i've actually found something very fascinating information about how the russian political military lead broke out. and it was very significant voices in moscow because i not listening to those to me just come into school use of the people labeled as foods and apologised obviously. and they're just to douglas, looks like you're in colorado. yes. very, very, yeah. i mean, but very providing, i mean, these are, you know, expert opinions, are you good? so any voice which they don't want to have coast is condemned as being, you know, following must go talking points and so on, which is, again, it's an intellectual closure. me, one reason why i'm talking about this is that we've, i simply insist that you know, dialogue has to continue with, with every one. and you can't just suddenly close down

a little discussion close down debate because it damages us. you know, i'm, you know, we'll patriots no phone countries. we want to see them survive. we want to see them 5, but it takes different ways and do people have different ideas to, of how they should be done. i believe in dialogue. i know tool can talk and talk and discuss just to make sure that i won't be intimidated by being people are being i get my share of abuse, of course as well. we can effectively be silence though, of course. i mean, as i said, we spoke to on saturday to the advisor to zalinski his troops, who former advisor and an american veteran and a spoke against any type of censorship. because of course, the united states has that 1st amendment, which guarantees that where is a, i think some americans are support lensky to build. they look bemused, leaving the fact that j at twitter has to ban tweets in european union in britain

under low in because of britain and european law have it doesn't allow the setting view points being expressed on to the. similarly with ideas of history, about neo nazis, min ukraine, and so for being banned under statute. why do you think your up in britain do this knowing full well, it'd be united states which is applying the bulk of the weapons would never think of doing the a very that's, that's a paradox, isn't it? that as you say, the united states is the most forceful. i didn't many wise, one of the creators of the situation that led to conflict. usually the same time. it has such a vibrant public sphere and debates which were lacking age for your side. and that, that, i mean, it doesn't exist. i think we shouldn't completely dedicated to, i mean, i have endless discussions as well. and the people who will not be close down

within not be canceled and will speak out. and you know, so the tide, not just of time to more, but a tied to public opinion will change. so at the moment, because the events have been some shocking and you know, amongst a whole succession from black, sit on woods, then the depend, demik and economic crisis. and will so, you know, some of the shows of, on to china then because britain has been sending it's warships. i mean, we're not even talking about the one in 5 involved in britain or the one in for children growing up in poverty right now. at britain has been able to afford this and we'll ship things out, trying to see what they just moved from russia being a states and 2 of china being evil and the need to i don't know how to succeed, to attack china ro, precipitate wolf or in the south china sea, its exact, again, its a continuation and, you know, as you say, as an academic,

the way i see it now is that the political west, this is a, you know, a military, political, ideological propaganda. informational network established during the 1st code will never be mobilized entirely of to the end of the 1st coldwell 198991 and now it's sort of back in full flood. but without the guardrails and without the you know, some of the y statesman of the earlier generation, i'm thinking of eisenhower, you know, say what you like about him. he was a great leader, and so it was dr. kennedy. today we have leaders who simply do not understand and maybe even kissing go who's coming up to us and you can is hungry. it's best to, i think. and who always wants for washington's in the west in general, should not be in a single chain. yes, lee, in conflict with most going by james, and always try to make sure that washington had the best of your relationship with one, then they had with each other and the same as kissing

a triangle. and you did the moment this binding administration. and of course, it's with its supporters blundering into a similar, tenuous conflict with 2 major powers because there was some risk. it's almost seems deliberate. antagonism of, uh, publication over time. well, the, the high level, political visits all of this talk, which goes against if there shanghai communicate and all the fundamental relationships which was stablished towards the end of the 1st. caldwell provides the riches aqua. thank you. a picture of that. so for the show will be back on saturday with a brand new episode, but until then you can keep in touch by the social media. if it's on the sense that in your country and had to travel going, undergoing tv hon, they'll come to watch new and old. extensive going undergrad. so you just have to say the.