to save some of the stuff the cop just wanted to see if that was the invoice or the easy to buy any of those names and the the hello and welcome to cross software. all things are considered. i'm peter live out . they chose approach towards you. credit is full of contradictions. we are told a win for russia is a defeat for the west. but ukraine is not a member of the military alliance were told, nato is not part of the complex, but it is been supporting kevin with hurley since 2014. nathan says he wants

russian to be defeated, but it says nothing about peace. the processing nato's illusions, i'm joined by my guess. carly nixon in washington is a political analyst and where thing we have anthony webber e as an independent political commentator. and in london we cross through the income my 10 day. he is a visiting lecturer at the law school of the university of westminster or a gentleman comstock role. is that a fact that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, let's go to the ink and london 1st here. i'm, you know, i'm in my introduction, you on the last sentence. i talked about the word piece. this is something that we were watching this conflict in ukraine. nato never was. it mentions of word peace doesn't want to strive for peace. it wants a defeat of one country, and that is russia here, that is a fundamental flaw of the strategy. but nato has nato doesn't think about the secure the, it doesn't think geo politically, it thinks ideologically in

a neo liberal way. and this is why it's turned in such into such a a, a mess for the, for the continent and the consequences are far, far reaching. the military conflict in ukraine will come to an end one day with the implications and the implications of what nato has done. will be with us for a very long time. go ahead and london as well. yes, i think uh this has been printed in uh, my uh, writings and comments resolved on the matter. i think it's clear that you know, nate's always, obviously an extension of us for employees and us foreign policy in the sense it's been infiltrated by those who profess the to be part of this neil, conservative ideology. i think it does not seem that's um uh, the, the idea of uh, victory always comes into the vocabulary. i think they think received the world as

being a way that old costs arena. and that's, it's one in which people must be subdued based. absolutely no room for discussion and that's why we have this uh, a fully charged decades long a policy of a full made saving culverts are those i was include mates in any posing the really most functions on, on different nation states. and i think it's that's very fast because it's, it provides a very unfortunate impediments. it's of the right thing, a mutual security and co existence pearl. and we get all the freedom of trade and to go back to lunch. yeah, it's, it's everything garland. i mean, it was, it was codified in the mid seventies with the helsinki process, a be indivisibility of security, meaning everybody, you can, you can aggregate security towards yourself at the expense of another state. and so

that's why we have the term in the visibility of security and they went along with it. it worked think that at the height of the cold war, that is, as we heard from our guest in london, you know, even even considering that and considering the term diplomacy, negotiation means compromise and compromise as a dirty work for these people. garland in washington. yes, because what we're looking at is a, a group of individuals who talk about a u. s. lead times. they mentioned it as the us led war uh, order. and other times they refer to it as the rules based international order. but it simply means usaa gemini, and the contradiction we have now is that the, the us empire has to talk to the world with a cover story of a, you know, a width of, of, of, of acting in the best interest of all of trying to maintain an order that's in the best interest of all. however, this a so called order has to be imposed on the world using using course it means. so if

this order must be input posts on the, on the world, then it's, it's clear that by it's very nature, egress of and, and course of nature. and that's what going on right now. and the, the, the, the allies orse baffles or colonies of the us empire paying the price there being sacrifice. so they all through this world where they have their sacrificing, they are very good friends, the and, and, and their scan regard for ukrainians. that's what's really ironic about anthony what, what, what is very interesting as well as the nato says, constantly, and there was an interview with felton bern more with the washington post. a few days ago, natal doesn't want to escalate, but that's all they told does, is escalate, you know, at one point, you know, a certain kind of tanks were, were not allowed. now they were there. now these long range missiles primarily come him in the u. k. in the us, almost always most likely follow the u. k is lead here. they constantly escalate

though they claim that they do not want to do that. again, that need or nato is, are well in, in nature. go ahead and were they to, yes, i agree. what do you say is there any thoughts on best buy now successful for. ready pace in fact, right. uh i put a year ago, fairly strong. some one drive, it's a, the crane. i just dropped off the uh, pending base stale between the crate and marcia, i'm since i'm hundreds of thousands of pounds or casualties. a baby many movie channels. uh, best way more like a of uh, a hold of you trying to get because of the continued coverage. and the supply of this heavy wiper rate is actually the assessor. because to start with we were told in the u. k. r, with these records we were getting ready to finish button 5 over the summer. the

way the way that we waste our aides killed and injured the civilians in the east of the crime which are cool saw fights. it's become part of prussia. i think. what is the city it will lift the ac is that's the nice side. countries are not say in the best interests are, but my name is on the logic in government which i stopped at this policy and intervening. ready the crime coming for it to die well has got absolutely no land a problem. i stop late to tell you that. so. ready to say and uh, the speed, amazing time age strong to the but you should call them 8 on the debates about the u. k. government. so you're kind of russian policies and uh its excessive uh we were talking about disclosed mother tree age site. the

fall of, well, uh 5 by the year. but we don't know won't be on disgraced saturdays, but we will see beats of low cats. what is the damage to you, k foreign policy, by the means of aging. and you crying? because we seen the reducing firms, which is isaac, king them is guessing in the world because of this pa. ready say, and we've seen that, but it's full structure to become more close to our totally destroying the under cause we have to look how it was. oh um. what have they adults who come in with the crime because they, they told the defending sycold of all these all democratic values. but we, we know they shut down opposition policies. i shot down opposition media and i've even shopped on the off of the church. well, i and anthony on top of it,

it looks like they're going to cancel the next round of elections in the country. okay. you know, western values here. ok, let's go back to under the inca in, in london. i, you know, one of the things that prep products is me so much here is a, how is this really, in fact helping ukraine. you have millions and millions of people of fled the country. the country is g, d p is in a free fall, industrial capacity is almost 0 and they're, they're basically a welfare state or a, a client state of the west right now, i can see how this grew great effort to save you. crane is actually doing anything for the ukrainian people. and again, like i said already in this program, this conflict will en one day, but what will be left of the country? go ahead in london as well. most likely credit is going to be uh, dispatched, but um, it's obviously clear of its uh, the interest of the ukrainian people i know kind of parts of finding out about how

that how by the, the american mega lions is not. so how i called by the ukranian leads themselves to plunder and pills from the economy. that was the modus operandi. right? so i'm just right from the beginning. it's always had an issue with corruption. i certainly off the 2014, to day to, rather than the revolution of dignity was a true, they tell you, had the, you know, the, the victory was always predicted, but the american, the, all those out to miss them and the corporate power would infiltrate ukraine. to give you my shock treatments and exploit that culture. so we know right, sign language standing, the world that is happening in the dumbass. you have a situation where ukraine's been calling me has been totally, you know,

has been considered really degraded and salty pride. despite this, suppose idea that you pre wants to become more of the more modern, more west. and it's actually this actually regrets. the nice thing this uh, a particular phase of the call because it is a phase, it didn't stops in february of 19 a. so 2022. and so it's been an ongoing high grateful river. many trees i've mentioned with an economic dine making sure that any information will damage. unfortunately, each of these strands have no counts you crate out by really, so really for me to intimidate russia, put in the minds to the dogs, surely of russia, you're not doing any favorites to that country. we're using a for that role. similarly, when it comes to a, the economic solving, it's all about beginning about plunder as the one development of both states. this

new phase of a special miniature ration of the russian intervention as being the introduction of the likes of black rock and roll would essentially only be the, well i, well, i'm going to go to our break gentlemen, but i think hunter biden was the, you know, he was a, he let the path you know, he created, he was a play, a trailblazer for all of this here. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on nato's illusion. stay with our to the a rushing state. never as tight as on one of the most sense community best ingles.

all sense of the consumer must be the one else holes. question about this, even though we will fan in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the states on the rush to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services for the question, did you say steve and twist, which is the

lowest point for you guys? the the, the dealer to a vehicle. yes, the motions for the, for the money isn't done. life is william,

which is here to stay on the the welcome back to the prospect for all things are considered. non peter roosevelt's remind you, we're discussing nato is the illusions the ok. let's go back to garland and watch it and see if there's only if there's a silver lining in all of this. garland, this really dreadful situation is that nato has taken it upon itself to say, this is ex, essential, it's to be or not to be. well, i'll take those odds. ok,

i mean, if it's all in on ukraine, that's what going to make or break you. nato, i'll take that back. okay. and, and it, and they've made this craving choice. we didn't have to do it okay with ukraine is of no strategic value whatsoever to the european union at all. okay. but they made it that way. so, game on garland as well and what, what you, but i just identified is that the, the, the, the security uh, the necessities and needs of the european union do not align with the us empire, who are their political and you know, economic masters. so we have a contradiction between the leaders and those that are led. certainly to be quite frank, it's obvious that russia's security needs aligns quite well with the european security needs. they have a border, they have trade, etc. the united states looks at it from a geo political perspective. how does the maintain power over both europe and

russia? so part of the dynamic guy here, unfortunately, to the european union a can't and won't address, is that part of what the us empire is doing is, is to putting, is to ensure that you are in a position where they can't challenge the us on the world. stage economically, and they can't push back either diplomatically or politically they have to do with their told even though it's not in their best interest. and to me that's to be dynamic as, as is exposed by the north stream. it would seem bombing, yeah, yeah, which, you know, they, they, they couldn't find it in the united states. i can find pensioners with walkers and a wheelchair that were close to the capital on january 6th. but they don't know who blow up the north stream pipelines. i think that's kind of interesting here. anthony chang saying with it was something the garland had to say. what i think is really remarkable, that if you look at public opinion across the western world, this is this war in ukraine is an elite project. this is not a popular thing, i mean the media can, can,

and parents and the powers that be all they want. but you know, they go to great lengths, the sensor, r t and other opposition and independent voices. it's not a popular face as an elite agenda and you can see it in germany. okay. you have, i don't need a better box. i don't care what my voters say, this is an elite agenda. go ahead in where they. all right, well, um, unfortunately, uh right, sorry, results. even representative. so you started members and um, uh, by a very interesting thing. probably not slack down uh, boss we, we have got a problem where debate is vegas shop down. and if we had any device or tools. ready uh it was very or, well, the argument small sir, i have uh, 4 nights i'd say be involved in the crane. uh sorry. so it is a very sort of side situation. uh the u. k prime industry just side, but so he wants to be involved in the reconstruction of the ukraine

and that's a shaming. and i will be something so that you trying to reconstruct all sort of time this card because it's already estimated that the costs of rebuilding or the raged over something on the $30.00 a $1000000000.00. and i hope these all say expect, say, the guy talks about to get involved with not, but because of course, the u. k. tax by i have software, i run the city because we would have all public sites strikes result by now. if the money is being spent on putting people a raise more wage in the side of uh, spending money on move on growing in ukraine. and we've had a huge, a fax, like twice an interest rates at all. 4 percent since their government decided on

the policies on your credit and russia. we've had a run just rising prices are of a 5. so energy costs which will continue to was the problem with these opinions publish. ready mentioned is because i are drops it. so if we actually had to write john, so is a direct questions. the, the opinions were big a lot of gains, the u. k. they involved on and also west of european countries. but the problem is, all of these countries are not actually in the interest of the citizens that might be of assistance for support as well after that. and has some strange, this cannot continue at some stage of the citizens are going to say enough is enough. where where, where find out and uh while, while anthony, i'm a little bit more. i'm may of more pessimistic on that because we saw what they did

with cove with that and in many ways that was a dry run. and so what you can do to, to do the locking people down quite literally and then locking down debate. let's go back to our guest in london. and it's already been mentioned on this part of the i think it's very interesting and they talk about reconstruction and no negotiation and all that. well, i mean, they always forget the other side of the equation is russia's interest. and so, since nato will, it will not recognize in russia has any security interest whatsoever. and it's been in europe and leaders have been challenged about this. what about russia? russia has no interest either during this conflict in ukraine. well, that is a very, very dangerous thing. to say, because it gives the, the, the policy makers in the kremlin site, well, they weren't is going to do what weren't going to do, because there's nobody to talk to see. this whole approach is, is so a dangerous for, for a piece on the continent. and maybe whitening the war. but if you're not going to

willing negotiating and get a talk, then the company is gonna end when russia says it's over. go ahead in london. yes, i think uh, it's already been reviewed. it says it's um the, the, you, pnc it is actually the interest of the people in this refusal by the us of the west not to recognize russia's interests more as a so facia lead multi rated massive but something that is more all in compasses that involves your swell, right. um, it's very sad and unfortunate. i think the basis of a security architecture in europe was missed in the needed altima. so you can get the geological cold war. but that's a kind of the more realistic temper that would be. so we recognize mutual economic and security interest since not to play this game, this power,

this power came off trying to subjugate a power such as russia, which really is going to be assigned to this thing. and it's something that, but it's obviously it's ultimate conclusion, would be a doomsday scenario. one hopes that it may seem like this will something not a apparent and therefore rising o realistic in the rising. but what really need is yet to break the spend is about being a european lead is a strong the fiber actually presents the case as they did perform a time in history that they recognize rushes legitimate interest. whether it was a soviet stage or post soviet state, you have multiple 18 and there's nobody in the euro set liquid jeremy, for with that phrase. and that's a methodology originates for all these nobody whose personal ties in that that's

the you need to guarantee every body's a security interest using was states against another is simply not the states, the states crow. it's actually very, very, um, yeah, well what, what is what has happened here is, darling, what we heard from, i guess in london is spot on is that you have this with the nato expansion to the east. it's, it's great. it's center of gravity has moved east as well. so you have countries like poland and you have the baltic. republics. they're the ones that are tilting the scales more. we the old europe, you know, germany and france, you know, where they can get. this is where your p and security was anchored. they've been sidelines of allowed themselves to be silent. i mean, i don't call them chance or shields. i call them sergeant schultz. i mean, this guy that you know, he would need to think of them with a great chancellor as jeremy's had since the 2nd world war. this guy is a dwarf. i mean it's, it's incredible to watch these people denigrate their own political stability and

disregard and holding contempt that are electorate go ahead. garland yes. and then what they don't realize uh, also is that this attracts the view of your, from the world. the one of the rabbits on africa, the middle east, latin america, most of the world is gravitating towards the russian. this conflict is not just because of the history of colonialism from the, from the european powers. that's certainly a factor. but as the, the, the world leaders look at the effect listed as of the european leaders today. and they look at their vassal inches towards um, towards the united states. they have no respect for them. they, they have, they have gained over spectrum around the world and traditional societies, we have respect is very important, particularly for leaders. yeah. look at these people and some of the cultural craziness that they're trying to influence to, to enforce. and they say, we just don't want any parts of this will go with a more traditional society that at least has some,

has some for some respect for itself. and who means what it says and says what it means of like other other than the, the european, vast ways, but just double talkers and spend and say what they're told by the, by the administration. yeah. anthony, i'm glad this has brought up card because it's a something that i've been watching very closely and this is a so it's a societal conflict as a set of civilization. all the rest of it represents a civilization that is antithetical in the minds of the people in the west. and this is one of the reasons why they despise russia is a conservative place. go ahead, anthony. i think more more people in the united kingdom and west in europe, realizing bread so might be russia, has more bodies and chatting with people is the thoughts about that? and i told by the government, so to close, i sure is a democratic country, a kitchen country, which was a, uh like the united kingdom it sense of the face. uh so,

um i think of some sage height free people wake up and realize that very, very tied to a loss of propaganda. but we have to look at this reputation issue because the reputation of value to in america and the united kingdom. when dow, not one, that's a great big trial to 26000000 ask guns when they did that cycle deal with the capital with the child. and yet, but it pays to base or they could have got involved with the crying. now i have to jump in here gentlemen, we've run out of time. we've had a fascinating discussion. i want to thank my guest in washington where they and in london. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at r t c. a next time, remember cross talk rules the

to what i knew crazy. yes. or took a lot less of my friends, but i was broken. save anyone. i get nothing that i that's what it's in 2013. which really it in my way. and it makes me thoughtful gains to willy waiting for i need to have the time happy that trying to find who's really

to turn the state law to become a new friend. the one who's loved going to die or because he is, i would stay alive. say next to the, if i'm not crazy enough, i'm not going to make it the,

the eastern is up. therefore, if given the russians to these developers, the west seas, the landscape william is defending will no longer rely on the west as a partner with whom we can find even minimal coming around with the russian foreign minister and say small scale can have no dealings with the west, as long as it supports ukraine's policies and targeting russian civilians, must go ridiculous, keeps estimates over the number of missiles it claims to have done saying the number is actually higher. suddenly figured launched. head comes of russian forces, say they have destroyed a 1000000000 dollar, us supplied poetry, all the air defense system in your china labels. former british prime minister list trust.