since proxies, while the nations in the proxy will, with russia to over how they will continue funding their military aggression visor . lensky countless, more and dying of the war and ukraine continues to escalate with british missiles being sent to kill. well, joining me now from palermo in physically at least professor charles cope, john senior fellow and director of european studies at the council on foreign relations. and the senior director for your benefit is on the national security council during the clinton and obama or administration. thank you so much, a professor coming back on the show. i just better stop by this. he rush him is some of the whole, the place. it's just as a russia, which was from the conventional armed forces in your treaty, it's already placing tactical nuclear weapons and bella was ahead of a st. petersburg for him about to where the rest of the world is coming to the g. 7 . median who rush, i'm a to talk about chinese collision and the best way to attack russia. well, i would say that this is a, a meeting with a lot of residents to put it mildly,

you know, this is the, the, the side of the, the, you, the atomic weapon that out and bring world war 2 to an end. well, we now know, sorry, sorry to interrupt, but i think there's been so much history about the fact that japan actually has already surrendered. i don't wanna go too back into history before and i guess that key and the russian were blown up to show, improve the new superpower, the 20th century, the united states, as well. it's probably not worth our time to litigate how world war 2 came to an end, but the fact that the g 7 is gathering there at the same time that we're in the middle of a hot war in europe, the biggest land war since world war 2 in which one side, the russians have threatened to use tactical nuclear weapons. you know, this is, this is a dangerous moment. arguably the most dangerous moment. since the cuban missile crisis, one can say even more dangerous. because the cuban missile crisis occurred during

the cold war. and there was peace. right now, there are bombs and missiles flying in ukraine. so hopefully the, the g 7 summit will, uh, get, get more assistance, maintain the unity among the major democracies. at least this, at this stage, it doesn't look like the war. new plan is going to end any time soon. will it be so dangerous? why are you advocating what we should act as done this week? said that f. 16 training. i don't know whether you advocate to have 16 will planes to zalinski. you're advocating more artillery, more ammunition, visit landscaping, so dangerous. why do you want the because i think that the ukrainians are determined to launch an offensive. they have a moral and legal right to take it back as much of their territory as they can. and i think we should give them the best chance possible to advance into eastern

ukraine in the coming months that having been said, i do think that we should marry the provision of more weapons to ukraine and provision that they can amik assistance to ukraine to a plan b because i'm skeptical that ukraine is going to win on the battlefield and by when i mean, we claim all of its territory. and as a consequence, when we get to the end of this fighting season, late in 2023, i think we're gonna have to have a conversation with him today though with the ukrainians and ultimately with the russians about how when, when, and where we can try to rustle this conflict to the ground because it is a war that is dangerous, it is having global blow back effects and the form of inflation, food shortages, energy shortage as is polarizing the international system. with the democracies on one side, you praying in the middle, russia and china, on the other hand,

democracies rusher in china obviously consider themselves democratic as new level south countries. ukraine itself jailed and persecuted, the leading opposition figure the opposition of life policy in kiev. obviously, the free media has been banned right across the europe in union, with the old, old discipline and voices, all voices against the nato view of the well being banned in europe. i, i think in the united states, you only had one television presented talk a call soon, who presented an oppositional view to biden's policies being fired from fox news. how democratic is this west that you talk of are given that there is, as the washing of both say, the more because he dies in darkness. there is a darkness in the united states in western europe about what's happening. well, we are clearly at a store called inflection point, right. you go back to the french and american revolutions in the 17 hundreds and

track for and then you say, history generally tilting in the progressive direction. the world became more and more free. and now it has tilted back in the other direction. autocracies are becoming more autocratic, and i don't know anybody who would really call russia or china democracy except maybe their own leaders way. we would rushes in order to move, you know, it's very international. observe as or what was happening in russia when booting was elected. if anything and put in was forced by opposition parties to go into doing best to protect the civilians of don't you have to come to the hands from nato. i'm the ukraine forces and food and didn't want to do it as we know food and wanted to join nato at one point. as i would the bangs of jennifer with just about everything that you just said. russia right now is clamping down on every aspect of

civil society. russia has taken over the free media and you can go out and speak your mind about this concept. you'd have to call it a special military operation. they're throwing people in jail. people are leaving, leaving the country in droves. come on ash and you know, you're going to do it. so i would say the bbc and cnn and all these uh, weston, uh, the restrooms. they probably got under outlets. they have john lives in russia. they're free to be in russia rebuilding, whereas rushman reporters panel report from even the united states let alone from us in europe. and you know, about those, do you have control story and tchaikovsky being banned? and what do you mean by the ark of history being progressive? you also know the century since i've been since 1945. i don't need to give you the list. you heard the council of foreign relations of your on what am i la costa rica, syria? egypt ended easier for just get on

a rock and roll of vietnam. cambodia. allow headquarters the, the countries all over the world with destroyed by u. s. policy. no journalists are not free in russia. in fact, there is a journalist from the wall street journal who is now stuck in a prison there and other reporters aren't going to rush in because they are afraid that go, that they are going to be arrested. you know, he's considered, as i said, you know, he's considered a spite in rush, and julie and assigned you're going to give you in special rapids on torture, is being tortured in britain by british news papers. i'm british security forces as joe biden, 6 to extradite him for a 175 years in jail, in the secret go to virginia option i, you know, i'm not sure you want to go on the record singing the praises the battery. i'm not right. easy is just the sound of blunders in the history. his

country is a rash. he faces more domestic opposition and he's ever faced. it's shut down the media. he's thrown american journalists into jail as the united states has the u. k . of other liberal democracies made mistakes in the past and the 67 years you bet. and they also made the world a more decent place. and they made democracy more widespread. have they made more countries prosperous? yes, no. this is the point for united states as maine, the better of the world, a better place, which is why when you go talk to people around the world, where do they want to go study? are they lining up to study in russia, in china, or are they lining it up to study in the united states only because they were leaving country? is that i mean the stabilized by u. s. foreign policy. why did you think that most of the invoice representing most

a few mountains, he refused a view in general assembly to condemn rushes, moving to don't bass? why did they do that? they refused and refused to implement sanctions. because defacto, they're supporting russia and of course naturally showing that we're not far off from when she didn't being chose to visit mosca. there was a grassroots revolution in ukraine called the mind on revolution, in which people to attend the streets and protested the fact that they pray indian president wanted to keep your brain under rushes from the man president deanna cove exclaimed the country he ran to russia and then eventually a democratically elected government was put in place and the russians said no. and they said little green man into crime the am a foster,

a separatist uprising in done boss. this is not as to be likes to call it the nazi regime. okay, but we were a trailer, you think most of or i mean most of crimea does not support moscow. most of the hands can don't yet doesn't. and using the made on cool even though we have the victorian newland phone cool. where she's organizing the co, would you cool? great, that's fine. okay. it was a, a grass roots color revolution in which the people of ukraine rose up and got rid of a pro russian regime. then zalinski with the rest of the peace. gather that. now we're not going to let you frame leave with the fall, and so they went in and 2014 and then they went in again in 2022. and now they're winning through what is perhaps one of the most grievous decisions that a russian leader has ever made. but i'll get to that more. well, that's a 2nd. but given the 200000, maybe we killed the new russian when that gets lucky by the us and to make bones the economist, that well known kremlin. a talking point magazine said that there were

a 149000 x as debts across 28, europe and countries because of instability and energy prices. you know about the same wash story. the biden destroyed, the north stream pipeline supplying energy to germany. do you believe that's the case and how many hundreds of thousands of people in the europe in union are being killed by this war? that alone the numbers of ukrainians and russians and let alone those killed because grain cannot be exported because the lens key is mining of the ukraine south. you know, we still don't know who blew out the north stream pipeline. i have seen no evidence to give credit ability to see more hershey's story. so i think we need to wait until further investigations produce some kind of hard evidence about what happened . are there negative, very awful blow back effects of this, where you bet, whether its brain shortages, phone shortages, inflation,

lack of heating and some places. but you gotta ask, who attacked on this as a war and unprovoked illegal immoral war of aggression by russia, against its neighbor, ukraine, in which russia has been committing war crimes indiscriminately bombing ukrainian cities. yes, this is a war that has norm as a norm, as global costs, but it is russia. it is the aggressor, normally when i raise the idea of the similar article, the idea that the new lin sullivan blinking would participate in what was the largest maintained emission event in human history. perhaps they just immediately say they, there's no way that would possibly help them. you said we don't know yet. so you, you do things that may be small as sources could be correct? no, i, i, i, them,

i see no circumstances under which the united states would deem it in its interests to carry out an attack against a pipeline that was not functioning, that would release gas into the ocean. and a habit of con, bubbling up, as you said in major emissions, the crisis of, of, of methane. by the way, when he said he knew then the noise, the stream play for. cuz we have the video footage, obviously, of him saying it will, it won't happen. the wind in and he convinced the germans to turn off the spigot as a consequence of russia's invasion of ukraine. progressive jessica of jenn, i'll stop you. the more from the senior fellow and director of european studies at the council on foreign relations after this break the

the, the

the welcome back to going underground. i'm still with the senior fellow and director of european studies at the council on foreign relations. clinton and obama adviser professor jobs. gotcha. you know, germany of buying the energy who is funding the russian war machine? it's the european union, isn't it? bangs in the dark market, the energy now it's mostly the russians are selling to the chinese turkey to india. none of that's appearing in your all his energy varies. some limited amount of energy bill is still coming. i believe some gas is still throwing a flowing through the brain pipeline, strangely enough. but you know, i do think we after them from the reality that the sanctions have not really strangled the russian economy. they haven't worked and they just pay the rest of a little trouble earlier, which of course roger would deny. and actually, you know,

obviously even the western economic institutions are surprised that while britain may be going into recession, russia is going the other way and is, and you're right, the rush of pay zelinski uh transit fees for, of course, for the pipeline going through ukraine. but back to, to nuclear weapons. i mean, you want negotiations, but you want to fund the military in ukraine to i don't know to the last ukrainian is they say are we expecting donald trump to end this war? you said it's gonna take a bit longer. we know donald trump once immediate negotiations, as he said in his town hall, is that the way forward and it goes the journalist. so gold said to him, what do you mean? don't you want to grange a win? and he went, no, i want to stop the dying, and i know you've expressed that again in the game that you want to stop the dying just like trump does. i think this is a war that is likely to end short of for you brandy and victory. and as

a consequence, i think we need to begin to think about plan b. i think it's too early to roll that out because it was suggested to the russians that they can simply wait out the way to get out already. ok. they could use the rushing air force and destroy you have and use tactical news. there was a waging it out. it's always a slow button from russia. yeah. but we need to increase the cost to russia. so that day and ultimately make a decision that they don't want to wait out the west. so you things are killing one or rushing the sons and daughters. that's going to help the situation and not force the opposition in russia to force boots and to engage with those tactical nuclear weapons. or you want to increase the costs of the russians. so that ultimately do use it in his political interest to bring an award to an end,

rather event to keep fighting, losing more and more soldiers bring it to where people on the other side bring it to an end. how using tax reform. i think when we have to assume that probably will continue to pose a threat for you to your brand for the 1st of all future, which is why and even if there is a ceasefire, even if there is a diplomatic effort, we will continue to support need to send arms and economic support seems inter russia from trying this again, you know that different narrative exist, which is that the united states wanted this war. they were preparing any way to go harder on don't yet, and the don't bass of a. well, generally there's a part of a big plan and it's back fired by from the, by the ministrations of exactly because it's united the entire global south. they're not talking about the dollar as ation. i mentioned the st. petersburg for them, which would be a soon when they talk about gold back currencies dropping us treasury's. and we

know that china, i mean, at the council on foreign relations, i presume the kissinger triangle duck doctrine of being close, that washington being close to the aging law must go. then they are closer to each other that's dead in the world and that the united states and western europe are alone suffering economically while the rest of the world based fluid. i'm not quite sure what plan and you're measuring it because what you just described bears no resemblance to reality. the united states did not want this war in went out and disclose information that the russians were planning this attack months in advance . it sent us diplomats to russia to try to avoid this war is consulted with its allies to try to avoid this war. knew full well, but maybe when large then, if ever was a long time off. none the less invaded ukraine because he believes that your brain

doesn't deserve to exist as an independent state. and he wanted to pull it back into russia's sphere of influence. is the global south major economies like india refilled indonesia? are they keeping their powder dry and not taking sides in this conflict? yes. hi. this is in many respects, a sign of the resilience because as it takes a lot of agents and the, and the, they're not even neutral that someone can even on, on, on the right, you say which planet of the fact is, they preemptively said that they can envisage ukraine being bought of nature, which was a red line for russia. you knew it, they knew it. everyone knew it. if cuba suddenly created already from a doro in venezuela, created a new environment in which, um, uh, mexico or i don't know, southern states was a to be part of

a new military alignment. i mean, what, what do you think would happen? you knew it was a red line, the americans knew that this is going to create a conflict in the arms company, share price, and suddenly tell us a tale of knowing that what was coming. the nato declared in 2008 an open door policy that georgia and ukraine would one day become a member of nato. i have to deal with the powers that policy. it was a rhetorical policy, and the russians knew that you frame was not on a track or a path to membership in nato. and as a constant points, you have to conclude, been proved to use this as an excuse to attack the country. so i do same thing, you have to look inside who's twist and bind to understand why he has launched into more that has completely blown out in his face. where usually when you say twisted right now, when you say twisted mind the rest of the,

the rest of the global tank generations to recover the rest of the global. so let's say it's a new era. the post to us, hedge a monic era. that's what they're talking about in the china corporation and organizational. talk about anything. it's a different world. you're right. it's a different planet to the one your choice to me from. we've had the john durham report, the special council. do you think culturally the united states has prepared to through years of propaganda or about trump being a russian agent and fake news about all of that was prepared to demonize rusher as part of this? uh uh, well, the goal us out, my goal is the error of us decline and they were preparing the ground for that just as the chinese balloon prepared, the american public for the fact that clearly the world is moving on. and you've talked about it, the multiple world is upon us. well, you know, i think that the,

the one that you just described is the world that we are moving toward. right. and if we look at 2060, for example, right, which is a long way off, we're talking about 40 years hence, then yes, we will say a, romantically new, the g o political ranking, right? china is probably going to be number one in the will probably be numbered to the us 3 for sale by jerry. a other countries in the global south are expected to rise into the top right. but right now the united states is still by far, the largest economy still by far has the largest military, any ada, 2 countries that are meaning of the g 7 this weekend as we speak, you will see a dominant capability. they still represent the lion's share of global well, isn't the fact that no one really cares anymore. what did it surprise you when the

reportedly mom had been solomon and the emmy said here in the u. a refuse to take biden's phone calls about oil production changes, but no one cares about the united states saying syria should not join the arab league. no one cares about the reservations of the nato leaders, european union, british, and american leaders about the fact that syria is admitted backend into world politics of the iran deal with saudi arabia. all of this is happening while they're all muddling along with the war in europe, that the rest of the world looks upon it as it was capitalized by vladimir putin in a sense, the leader of the vanguard of this new world order as well. i think what you are seeing is the beginnings of home world in which there is more agency in the global south in ways sorry to interrupt. you did say that already, but you said 2060. is it not moving quicker than uh, than you thought? just as i remember that articles in the foreign policy magazine in 20 years ago

saying china or eventually will be powerful, you know, i, you know, revising your opinions and thinking, you know, i'm getting close to. i think things are actually moving more slowly than i would've predict get in part because the dollar remains such a dominant currency. in part because we are seeing that you can unplug countries from the global economy, at least from the western economies in a way that has consequences. yes, the saudis are playing both sides of the coin and one day tilting to china the next day tilting to where the united states, the indians have joined the quad, a grouping against china. but also they've joined the shanghai cooperation organization, a grouping led by russia and china. so yes, things are getting more complicated. but i think suggest how important it is to provide these kinds of wars into turned back efforts,

buying countries to engage in imperial con west. we need to get the ukraine war behind us, preferably by rebuffing, rejecting rushes effort to grab the territory of its neighbors. and start dealing with this big challenge of having yeah, global governance, how to get great power cooperation in the world. it is multi polar will be multi polar and very much interdependent in global life. just finally and briefly. what about trouble at home? i know your in the sicily, would you all give me was a part of this marshal plan prox, the post 45. they're all unified, the for the lensky there. but back at home. what about us public opinion? is it starting to move against? and the, by the ministrations policy of pouring tens of billions of dollars in public money? well, people die of poverty on the streets with 30 $7000000.00 in the united states,

in poverty being handed over this money to the most corrupt country in europe, which is of course, ukraine, according transparency international. i think most americans have really come together to support the us out for to help ukraine defend itself. i've been amazed how many ukrainians flags there still are buying in the strains. and just a few days ago, the lensky traveled around europe from italy, and i was talking about here at france and he garnered massive support the largest, a german decision to provide weapons. so i think so far, pretty impressive. unity, are we beginning to seem public opinion in the united states? stockton? yes. do i think that the united states, i'm as europe and allies will continue supporting your brain at current levels forever? no, they will not. and that's precisely why it is important to begin to develop

a diplomatic plan at the end of this coming offensive. to try to wrestle the conflict to the ground, to get a cease fire. and meant to support the brains out for to restore territorial integrity at any go shooting table, visit jobs go to and thank you. all right, buddy. and that's over the show will be back on monday with the break through news host and had the war activists. eugene per year and more than one month since fighting broke, having to done that geo political instrument of world trade successfully be stabilized by nathan nations. been until then you can keep in touch, why will i social media or if it's not extensive in your country and that's what channel going. i'm going to be a number of them come to watching you handled episodes of going undergrad. so you monday, the the,

the, the of 3 people use of, for on, since coming your what's the, somebody was gonna have to choose between the of the office to get to the, the next this goes there, the word made that up. we have the beat was awfully cool

a lot. so shift in things you get suitable for something that you, all of this opportunity might not make your life as a piece of paper for your set on the this is a residential area around me or a palmer brooks. there's no military presence here. many of the children that use this playground would've been going off to 2014, so they would know nothing, but was another miss all attacked by ukrainian forces on foss with civil the in areas hits, including the hospital. archie reports from the scene in the center of the done yes, so it's also a head on the program. the tension is on the rise in georgia as the 1st.