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hello and welcome to cross side for all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. why isn't there any public debate on the competing ukraine? why have the leads embrace to war and shun negotiations? where's the anti war movement? and more importantly, how is all of this helping ukraine, and it's people, the cross talking the west and ukraine. i'm joined by my guess michael, my loop in rest and he's a former attendant guns senior security policy analyst in winnipeg. we have alan freeman. he is called director of the international manifesto group as well as a researcher at the university of manitoba in canada and in oxford. and we crossed to roger mackenzie. he is an international editor. i gentleman comstock rose and i think that means he can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate michael. let me go to you 1st here. i'm titling this program, sacrificing ukraine. i propose there was a very interesting article in new york times

a few days ago titled the u. s. should be a force for peace in the world. well, i think we should all agree with that. but one of the most the most important take away in context of ukraine and deletes is this sentence here, 2 sentences in diplomacy. well, one must attempt strategic empathy seeking to understand one's adversaries. this is not weakness. it is wisdom. and i can think of a better way to encapsulate the madness that we're all experiencing, michael as well. we're just saying the opposite of we've been that more for 22 years, plus and i don't see any ending to it in the, in, in terms of the united states. but it's, it's, it's driven by ideology. it's also driven by a hoax. and, and it's a hoax that the democrats have to live with. and since the united states remains

the super power of the world, whatever it does says, or grieves at or thinks, that's what rules these days. and it's, it's, and we're seeing this now with a, we're seeing rebellion to this notion in the world by other countries, such as the bricks. now the se, in the countries that want to divest themselves of the us dollar. and that's just of the matter of how other countries of the world are sick and tired of the us constantly at war a what the noise in their economies and, and driving and, and driving the world into a constant frenzy on the break of a default on our end and, and also depression on there. and so it's, it's, something's got to give and, and we're seeing that the, the, the press in the united states, as, as the in lock step with this administration. they're actually controlled by this administration. and when you have something like this and, and you don't have a posing voices, and they're being kept down because we weaponized their own law enforcement. and

it's, it's, it's a sad state. and so at least other countries are beginning to rebuild. and i, i would like to see more of that. yeah. well, and i mean, that's what, that's a good segue to what i wanted to ask about, you know, in my introduction, you know, where's the anti war movement? i mean, this is an elite project with, you know, people they, there's no debate, i mean, i remember, you know, what they had, they run up to the iraq war. there was a lot of debate that was a lot of protesting. that was i and it was on a national television. it was in the newspapers. eventually these people got shut down, but it did happen. there were protests, particularly in europe here. what has happened isn't just because of the internet and you can control what people see in here, alan or? yeah, well, i think the basic problem is that we don't live in a democratic society in the west. now that's a truism, right? it could be a trophy, and so you just saying that, but in the following sense, there is

a systematic sentiment opposition to the will in the west. if you look at the polls, they're all between 20 and 50 percent of the population. in some cases, even though i have such as of trim, i don't want to, well, why don't negotiations? they find no expression in any problem entry potty. that means that 20 percent of the population have no representation and ball and then they would be 30 and pays the liberties problem and they would be 20 in the us problem. they would be 50 or 7, the canadian call them, and god knows how many in the gym and problem is. there was a real representation. now what's happening and the reason for this is the policies were the original idea of a coffee is it represents what the people want to say. they've been turned into the opposite. they tell the people, well, the room is welcome to do that. she's very clear, let me give you just one example. there was a very big group for them, pays in the british later party. and we know how big the support for that. so to view is because of the but the jeremy cold and go in the last election and they

wanted to sign a declaration calling for peace. that's what we're calling the police issued by this the woman. and they were told that if they did that, they would be expelled from the light about that kind of thing. you look at the way the democratic elections are conducted. i mean, i'd be very interested to see what other people think of the candidacy of robot kennedy who has come out to negotiations and how he will fail, but he's already coming under the full show media. yeah. well he's, he's a perfect example of how you crush someone. i mean, i mean, a man of that kind of political pedigree. it's really amazing here. let me go to roger here. you know, i've written kind of echoing what alan was saying. we had the foreign minister of germany, angelina, better bach. she said she didn't care with her constituent style when it came to ukraine. that's the, that's actually exactly what alan said here. but you know what, roger, what's really pathetic is that they get away with it. okay, and you know, i, for months and months and months meeting up to this complex,

every single program i recorded here on cross lock on r t. moore and everyone. a conflict is coming. and when it came, what, what was the result? not that i was right, is that i was censored and i was deleted from youtube. this, these are the people were dealing with roger. i think it's really easy to have this discussion and i kind of very global, no sense. hi, when, when actually, when you look at the support for this war across the world, most of the world does not support um what, what the us and the allies a doing fine in to the last drop of ukrainian blood. basically, most people don't support obama. and so i think when we talking about whether or not there's a does make sense of piece across the world,

we shouldn't just talk about it in terms of law, the u. k. m in a, the us what's going on there, and even then actually that, that is a and certainly in the you, k is a very vibrant on people moving on still in here. well, they don't get is a publicity, because that's within the control of that. and they are levels that control the media and so on. and organizations of the media atlas, progressive media outlets don't get the same attention bus actually across the world. there's a movement pace taking place. that is a message by people want to say, a negotiated settlement that understands the security concerns of russia. the under times that the, the way that the us is trying to have yet to know the proxy will and have this is just one more in a step towards the next come slate by china, taiwan, bullet st. but rod, sir, you speak the words of wisdom and reason. okay. and national interest here. let me

go back to to michael here. and that's the problem here. so we, it's meal liberalism, roger is absolutely right, but it's an a messianic neo liberalism. but what they do is it's being crated into a binary. any kind of negotiation is, is negotiate and negotiating with the devil. that's how they've framed that it's a binary. that's why we're never going to get anywhere until the, the, the, the last soldier dies on the field, michael. well, hi. so i am seeing the world reacting, we are, people are beginning to really react against the us led unipolar world order. and we're seeing that it's just being accelerated now because of ukraine. i 1st saw begin when the trump dropped out of the j. c p. a way you knew right then and there, there was a benchmark moment. i was in a ron when it happened. and you could tell me the whole attitude, the whole atmosphere, just change that we are in for

a big change. and that's what's beginning to happen now. and we're seeing the saw, the, the saudis, and, and the you a switching over a, away from the us dollar. i mean, all of this is trending. but to get to your point i, i'm working with a group of retired generals who wants to bring peace school, say more, they've had enough of it. and it, and, and there has to be an alternative. but you're also dealing with ideologues in this country under the, by the administration then, and they are still leading. and that's uh, victoria newland and, and, and by and himself who, who actually prompted and, and, and encouraged the crew in 2014 in ukraine because they see they see ukraine as the last vestige of ultimately trying to contain russia. if not, bring about regime change there and it is, it is a dying effort. you see a tory newland on, on the air talking about the encouraging the bombing of, of,

of crimea. i mean this and droning, uh, crime. yeah. i mean this, this is going on and on until we can get rid of this administration. but now that's in question because everyone's questioning the integrity of our elections. and, and, and democracy has gone in this country. we, we, we pay lip service to it, but it's, it's a, it's, it's a tragedy. how events have term. we don't have a country anymore. we don't have a, we don't have a southern border. we've lost our sovereignty. yep. we're defending the border of ukraine. this is the pastors and the american people are rightfully concerned about this, but they have their own, the problems, they have, they have inflation, they've got to deal with all self inflicted by the, by the administration. well, that's your control, that's exert control. that's exactly the point now in the rush, it was supposed to be punished here. but what these neo liberal leads have done is punish their own people. of course these, the leads never feel the pain allen. well, the lease of chosen by the ruling cost, which is the property owners, that's what $1.00 has to realize. we live in

a society in which the dominant class, which is the property and is choose the state. and then the state tells everybody wants to using the policy system. so somebody says something is not a lawful cry, but understand and i would say organize, you have to rebuild the movement of the left in my opinion, because i don't think the right is going to provide that solution which will actually organize people to recognize the interest do not lie in oppressing their fellow workers and people abroad. so, you know, so, but kennedy puts that you cannot have a democracy or imply because both. so if you get people to begin to understand the empire is inimical to the interest of ordinary folk in europe. in america, in japan, in australia, then you will begin to get well, because the problem is, or the left in the left and right have forgotten about the issue of class. i'm a conservative class is a very important issue. but the leads don't want to talk about

a gentleman. i have to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the west end ukraine state without the the russian states never as tight as on one of the most sense scheme and the best english i'll send, send up the speedy one else calls. question about this, even though we will ben in the european union, the kremlin media mission, the state on the russians cruising and split the ortiz full neck,

even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services. for the question, did you say steven twist, which is the take a fresh look around his life kaleidoscopic isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real live indians. fixtures, design to simplify will confuse really one say better wills, and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st?

can you see through their illusion going underground? can the the welcome ex, across dock were all things are considered. i'm peter, let's remind you were discussing the west and you create the ok. let's go to roger. an officer here. one of the, the biggest difference, a major departure from the cold war is that the western relates led by the united states. obviously have decided to go toe to toe with appear or near peer power. that was something in, during the cold war, which was a big no, no,

you can fight on the periphery, even have proxy wars and all that. but what, what we see with this administration and it's like these, and you are my apologies, allen and roger. but it's, it's, it's, it's very true. okay? so this is what makes it very dangerous because the u. s. is actually attempting a peer to peer $1.00 to $1.00 conflict. and at one point the russians may react. i'll tell you, living in this country. a lot of people want a stronger reaction to the, to the, the droning of crime in these cross border attacks on towns. but they're, they're the west is it shouldn't, for a conflict here in ukraine is the trigger. roger. yeah, absolutely. and i think um, the provision of these was it, and i just found a site training for today's new client and find the policy to use. that's sixteen's . i'm so and the us saying, well, when i even got it, provide them with, with the way of very happy for allies to provide the these planes. so we've been

a showed by, um, oh yeah. and yeah, i'm not going to use the russian is, i mean, this is just nonsense. you know, in the end we can either rely on politicians to just wake up one morning and do the right thing. well, we can understand. but in the end, the engine of real change is working class people, and that's what we get. i have to mobilise is always about organizing how we're going to get people to stand up and do something about this running the system that we're under. now we're living, we have this, which is faced with continual heat pump to say the united states was really great because the, because china got involved helped to broad career paste. it's a inside the right be of any room. at the same time, they all they moved haven't enough headphone a and to try and get some sort of a safe spot again alongside the saturdays. but you want to get

a safe spot in the sea down at the moment, but not really hard. but you'll, you'll never find that i have done a single thing to try and get any kind of pace my moments salted within your crime despite the sense of china, despite the efforts of the, the african mission that that's also being launch. they are absolutely ruthless in this and they have been telling people this figure is actually about what it is, the airbags and this is full spectrum dominance approach to the united states. they know that they have this policy for years. they are clear that anything that comes remotely close to interrupt, saying that at economic military, political dominance of the well, they will come down hard on. so that's why they're coming down out on russia. and that's why they're coming down hard on china. we just have to white people up to the so it's an organized and mission in the end for all of us. well, well, well michael, max byron, government jump in, michael, go ahead. yeah,

it's back firing because what, what, what the world the world is beginning to recoil it's, it's evolving and it's going to be accelerating. i'm seeing it with the, with countries that want to join brooks with this, this alternative world order, the multi polar real order. that's big in it to a 2 o'clock to come up with a c and countries. 10 of them just said they're going off the us dollar. uh, that's significant. that is very significant. so they are beginning to recoil against this, this gemini, by the united states. and because because of the weapon ization of economies and control that the, by the administration has thought over over the world, look, they didn't do europe any favorites. look what it's done to europe. yeah. made them a basket case. yeah. and, and then walk into what is going toward asia now the says, i mean, this is quite remarkable. michael,

this is what the us does to its friends. okay. not our phones. okay. like that, of course are like what i agree to that friends is they blow up bad pipelines. that's what they do to their friends. well, that's all part of the part part of the part of the game right now. and, but i won a uh, you know, i m, i, uh, i studied history. that was my, my academic area. and that's the scholarly and you know, looking at world history, i can think of a case maybe you can wear a heads, your mind just says, hey, you're right, i've changed my mind with all the friends. that's not happening. i'm agreeing with all of you here. but ahead to me on doesn't walk away. i had your mind will probably crate as much a us is possible and bring everybody else down with him. allan, but we're basically oscillating or getting paid or i don't think you're a conservative. i think you're a rational as rationality so we need rationality stops. in fact, the usaa is not a huge amount. it's an aspiring benjamin. this is filed. no, no, no, no, no, no,

it's the declining hedge fund. i think we could all agree with that. this is the point now we're going to make this has been declining due to the grocery usa has been declining since 1960 is now the 0. don't listen to the people to come. what is basically, is that kind of balance in science doing well, you look at the average g, d, p growth of the u. s. i is home the world's and that as well as behind the difficulties. the problem is not that china is a threat to the us. the us is a threat to the us. that's bringing about a fundamental change because it can no longer even feed its own people by robbing the rest of the world. and the people will wake up to that, and there are cases with us often you studied history, look at portugal, 1974 or germany 1918. those were the only cases in the west when that would be revolutionary movements of working people, the vice return government side of the that started with the when they realize they couldn't. we was now when the realization hits the, this is not a whole,

but the night co pounds can when i thing you'll see a see change of what we have to do is build from the ground up, the movement that recognizes that you kind of reconcile and with democracy, and when that happens, i think you'll see quite launch movements, emoji. that will be a powerful effect on rationality. and hopefully, you know, the result will be done in a peaceful way and peaks. and somewhere in the state, we see people from the military who the say, you know, this doesn't make sense fellow rationalised sign. this is not the way to do things . hopefully this will happen peacefully. but whatever, if they keep suppressing it and they going to produce funds, look at paris, look at from look at the situation. macro is in. think about generalizing. so what we hope is the reason prove aisles and the reason prevails. peaceful profile? well, i'm really glad my comments triggered do like that because you are quite, quite, um, uh, i think, prophetic and, and,

and very descriptive of what's going on right now. good job. well done. let's go to roger and oxford with you. okay. i want to push back a little bit here. we had the co bench locked downs. we had censorship on a massive scale. we know the, the powers that be, were very much involved in the well, so called russia gate hugs. i mean, the, the deck is stacked against as roger as much as we may want to organize. and i'm a conservative, but i can deal very easily with progressives on this issue. but then this is what the powers that be want they want a separate is always put us in our little boxes and keep us away from each other. and that's one of the reasons this program exists is to bring a wide group of people together on issues where we can find commonality. go ahead, roger. but also i think, i think we should also have gunk going back to. well, i'm one of my 1st comments about looking at this through a wider lens round of them through a global knowles effectively. because i,

i think that we really need to use organizing strengths, use all of that kind of technology that's, that is now available to us such as even being able to do this call i, but use the facilities that we've got to engage more with active as in the global science who have said that they're not prepared to put up with a continual role of the, the united states being told that they can only trade in the us dollar. basically that they pitched all that stuff. and i think we need to link him with them because i think he forever to say, we'll try and just gonna come about because people have organized not just in the global knowles, but haven't linked in ways um, similar progressive full says i'm from the global staff as well, so i've gone really optimistic actually, cuz i, i see a lot of people rising up. i see a lot of people who are not prepared to just put up with and the way that it's

always been and i'm looking for a new world really bad looking for a new way of organizing things. so that the minute i step a line that the united states is not able to decide, well, we're just going to not issue with a lot of bunch of sanctions against it because i wouldn't be able to do that. it does a, it's with the, the, the authorization that's taking place sized, massive, massive shift that's taking place on really optimistic that we're going to see some real change. but only, i think if we make sure the outlines isn't just about the global. no, but it's all about assess, well, roger, you didn't, you can see them, but i can michael in our and or giving thumbs up. we couldn't get in complete agreement. me to all right, i'm michael. where do we go from here? because again, and it's, you know, if you ask people in the west, you know how, how important is the grain to you? it's really low. you know, it's, it's not, it's in double digits right now, but it continues here. and we, and like i said earlier, rush, it was supposed to be published economically, but their own people are and,

but can they tolerate dissent? after all, you know, so lensky is the, you know, the, the, the future of democracy and prosperity there with all this garbage that we hear on a, on a regular basis. go ahead, michael. no, i think i think as long as the they keep up the pressure that was just described from the global south, the global north and basically isolate the united states so that it becomes a, just a speck of what it used to be. and in terms of trying to take over the world or, or, or force other countries, it's a submission. i think that this is going to be the key plus unique countries and people within the countries now they're true to form a ground swell of opposition to this war in any other wars because they're, they're, they're, they're obsolete. and, and we, we are seeing this, we thought we thought was vietnam,

that's how the vietnam war ultimately ended. people got sick of it. i mean, and there was no, no, uh, n game toward, toward that war except all ideologically inclined individuals who wanted to defeat something that was not, was not the case, no domino series occurred. and, and that's, and we're seeing an overlay today of, of the united states still trying to make those comparisons with, with russia towards europe. and it equates him, the quite put in with get what it doesn't exist. but yet the other 3rd trying to leave. what were also the chair and for these things to change the, this is there has to be an utter failure on the part of the west because it is north, south dimension, near gentleman, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guess investment when to pay and,

and oxford. i don't want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our to see you next time. and remember, press on rules the the

oh, sure. seem wrong. just don't you have to safe house to come sit and engagement because the trail when so many find themselves will support. we choose to look for common ground, the which i thought that was the little thing. it's just the slug restaurants because right now let's see what they thought is going to look. you agree? miss stella to post is all the if the is that i, it's a get a minute. come other students need, which is easy to so when they were gonna use us as a central material, which is the mother i'm willing, i didn't like the law. the daughter is elizabeth, again, is busy or if i'm a little screw, well in the middle of something,

i mean yeah, we did present to not the degree with the results between you and they to a solution for children. i'm comfortable that much. we want you to seriously september, they process the, the president food insights washer and becoming an economic powerhouse, despite harsh pressure with western functions, backfiring and zoning home in the country section close to coming up a lot more later with, with, with abundance destroyed in the western western side of the state to those even a place that we report exclusively from one of the deadliest of investments that