the acts of georgia and executions of civil people including pregnant women children and old people took place more than 2000000 people were born into concentration camps. however, these punitive measures didn't help. cl, jerry and patriot managed to induce france to start seize negotiations in 1962 heavy and the cords were assigned 40 l. jerry on the bass warrants independence. but this was achieved at a colossal price. algeria by rights is considered to be a country of martyrs. according to the calculations of historians, the french colonists are responsible for the debts of one and a half 1000000 algerians. the . the

hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter level. what does the west a me to achieve and, and see crane proxy war bit of feet humiliation and break up of russia. if this is the case, then the west has already lost the cross talking ukraine and europe. i'm joined by my guess, matthew errant in montreal. he's a senior fellow at the american university of moscow and director of the rising tide foundation of canada and, and parents. we cross the john laughlin, he's a university lecturer and in history and political philosophy. all right, gentlemen, crosstalk rules, and in fact that means you can jump it anytime you want. and i always appreciate, john, let me go to you you of course you've been following the news as closely as i have been. and with the, with the, the, the new iteration of what needs to be done is

a ceasefire. creating some kind of security arrangement with ukraine. a can to the, uh, is really model. i mean, a lot of ink is being spelled, a lot of people are talking and it's all nonsense because at the end of the day, what needs to be considered is what's gonna happen at the after the end of this conflict and what it's ramifications will be mostly for your, for ukraine, which i think everyone knows it will be destroyed and the, the european union will be left holding the bag of some kind of run state. it's very unclear of nato can even survive this debacle. un nato is the problem, nate, because of the existence of nato and its objectives. cause this conflict to your thoughts, john? yeah, i mean, it's pretty clear, isn't it, that there are different factions within the american administration. they're obviously the neo con holtz and, but there also seems to be some, perhaps pentagon realists. and that's why, as you suggested in your questionnaire,

a room is about a ceasefire, a frozen conflict, a stalemate, all of those forms of woods if they prevail. if that's a option prevails the other option, of course being to escalate the wall, which many people are arguing for. but if the frozen conflict a multiple prevails, then that is, of course, a victory for russia, at least in the immediate and perhaps short medium terms. what i mean by that is that there are plenty of other frozen conflicts in the territory of the former soviet union, obviously in georgia from the 20 o, a conflict in most of our, in trends in history. i from the early nineties and all of them, i mean to budget very bluntly, that russian troops in the territories in question and then not likely to be going home at any point soon. and the reason why i think that that model may indeed be the one that will now turn out to be to prevail is that's of course, we are

a few days from the defeat of ukraine in best mood, a defeat, which it was initially. it was very difficult to confirm is looking at uh wonderful media because they were different claims and counter change, but which i think we can say is now set a defeat for the credit inside. precisely because you come find the thing about it in the media. if the fighting was still going on, and if you create had any jobs of, of recapturing the city in the, in the immediate future, then we would have nothing else. so that defeat and of course they couldn't come into, in fact that the famous counselor offensive seems to be being put off more and more . makes me wonder whether indeed there isn't a pentagon realist faction. we've had rooms of this since december. i'm with uh, the west, inside the nato side now realizes that actually a frozen conflict is about the only face saving solution that they can hope for it

. well, you know, to, i think there's one problem with that. i say your line of argumentation as usual. it's impeccable that let me go to matthew in montreal, but to have a ceasefire, you have to have both sides to agree. why would russia agree? as well as best made the points of either it's very difficult to speak to count of parties that have made, made it illegal to having to go. she ation with the current sitting leadership of russia. so there's very much to talk to if that were to change the, the, the problems still exist, which is, well, what is the ultimate objective regarding benito and us catalogs of the current as a, once the regime or at the, at the end of the day, what do they want to, oh, you know, there, there is a, i think a lot of in fighting right now about the fact that what we suppose to happen a year ago did not happen. russia was not destroyed, it was not crippled economically yet. but a lot of these forecasts that were believed to be the necessary,

obvious outcome of this uh, this gap it did not happen. pressure is much stronger on almost every variable in every metric that one can look at, especially when compared to the increasingly sinking west. i think that you, you have of all sorts of contrary messaging coming out of the west. a lot of, i think these are signs of a lot of inciting all actual to say no freeze is going to happen. um, you know, you, you have so many different things that i don't think it is likely a rush. it just needs a secure, a spear of existence. it needs to have its, its security interest met. it's not that difficult. understand. and as long as you have an ideal, ideologically driven, the fastest li, inclined militarist that are being supported any, any way within new west ukraine. it's simply is not going to be in the security interest any to the degree that you have still an open agreements that eventually ukraine will be brought into data with some point. well, i mean, the red lines,

how in the world, i mean, louisa turned to john here. i mean, the 2 biggest problems here that we have is that the west in uh, 1st of all, back then illegal. cool. when 2014 brought to power some alternation what's, what's called them what they are fascist because that's what they are. okay. and they've been empowered, they didn't have that kind of sway before 2014. what they did was they made the illegal opposition parties and zalinski went even further monopolizing, and nationalizing the media. and then the 2nd, the 2nd to the drops as it were, is the minutes a process. so, i mean, you can deal with these fanatics in ukraine that have been empowered by the west and the europeans and why in the world, but the russians trust a another agreement i wouldn't hold by the way, who blow up the pipelines. i mean, this is the dilemma we're having and that's why i think if there is a frozen conflict, it would be under rushes terms and there in the west is gonna have to suck it up,

john. yeah, no, i think that's right. that's sorry. uh, that's actually more of what i meant when i was talking about to cease by. i did use the word present conflict in my reply because i, i do think that the, the, the, the, the, the 1st and conflict model, if you can call it that is a face saving device. right. it doesn't mean that i, if i sent the device for the west, of course, what, why would russia be content with that? well, it seems to me, but again, i, i'm not a military specialist that russia does have difficulty or has had difficulty advancing. we, we'll remember the retreat from have solved and from, from, from hosp gulf, some months ago we've seen that the battle of best mood has been very difficult. we may deploy that fact, but it seems to be the case. it's not that is if russia can go into ukraine, like a nice 3 bought to so, you know, it's maybe not just as for the west, it realizes that its desires have come up against the britain will of reality. the

same may be true of russia, and that is why the thing maze is allowed. i'm not saying it will. it made a feel with there's a lot of talk about escalation is a took a, took about the f sixteens and the 11th tanks and all the rest of it. it's uh, but it may be that the style mates is what we're heading to simply because of the facts on the ground. yeah, well math here, you know, you know what this program, primarily it's objective is to deconstruct to all the western mits and media about this conflict and other topics is, well, what's all, remember, let's do a little bit, go down the path of history and remember you know, little pluck, you know, ukraine, you know, against the russian bear and all that for 8 years, nato was building up the military capacity of ukraine with sophisticated weapons and technology. okay. surveillance, the works here. and plus, we have to remember it is, it is widely believed. i believe it that when russia started its special military operation,

that was just prior to what the ukrainians were going to do and invading the don bass. so they were and they had enough offensive past year, they were built up. and this is why it's being so hard to push back. but, you know, if you look at a military in europe, from the 1st day of the complex ukraine was 2nd after turkey in, in, in europe. so, i mean, this narrative being a poor little ukraine and, and look what's been poured in since then. now i am, for me, it is very, very dangerous that go down the escalation louder, cuz that's what nato is going to do. but they're not going to send those f sixteens, matthew, they're not going to do it because they'll all be shot down. and how is, how is the americans going to explain is a pedal that are trinkets around the world. well, they all got shut down because, oh they were you creating pilots? okay. know these planes were fighting our um, um um over um people that were in the middle east herdsman so okay. going up on near pier power in rushes, proven its conventional aid is superior to the united states. matthew,

it all you laid out very, very clearly. i mean i, i think that again that there's this, this ivory tower problem which and i'm not a military expert, but i do know when i see ivory tower thinking collapsing when pressed against reality. and there's this idea that all conflicts are somehow created equal in this mathematical plainfield. and just because they realized they were able to get certain effects in the middle east against shepherds and people were, you know, fighting malicious style from mountain ranges and what have you, all of a sudden now they're, they're seeing that, that the same effect is not happening when you have a similar, maybe a quantitative, we greater magnitude of military power put into something because all of a sudden you're dealing with a very technologically advanced society of, of russia, which has been able to produce weaponry, hypersonic missiles and a variety of other things that have changed the rules of the game. there were many of the weapons that, that russia has been able to produce over the last years. shouldn't even exist as part of the, the formula for success of the west. they're, they're not,

they're not in reality. and so i, i mean, i think that there is this uh, this problem we're by russia in the past and throughout the cold war was not in a situation of, of economic and political at security to the degree that we see today with the multi polar alliance with its special relationship with china, increasingly also as a ron, a variety of other nations of your asia, the shanghai cooperation organization is create a strength and a confidence which i think is rendering many, many western view politicians extremely insecure and they're, they're, they're getting, they're not able to formulate or, or plan, what will be done next will say man and man is the last page right before we go to meet before we go to the break, throw in and i'm agreeing with you d. dollarization. that's happening very, very quickly. yes, absolutely. i mean, is this happening in an accelerated rate? the already 2 thirds of the trade between china and russia is, are being done local currencies. and that was just one quarter just in 2021. so you

have be a vast, vast, dollarization that's very important. all right, on that top gentleman on today, we're going to go to a short break, and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine and here say what are the best of both known issue, but for the individual annual g d p per capita, it was about $4000.00 bureaus, the scholar and a mobile. cuz i'm really watched here the sleep of man. i've got a new planet across the seal with us really into photo me. so just letting them all the classes nature, little spot, the,

the single thought of unemployment is off the charts. not most of us territorial integrity in sovereignty. we respect the country which enjoys financial support from the us, m d. u is constantly roles by political and corruption scandals. but all the students go to the training. you can do that status in 2022. the

. the watching is why is the why in this control if i give but plenty of the store in this, this is chad and i showed order for not imagine just the last name scale. you know, when i am what i could catch at your desktop session. let's just sean your just is fun. you bon, is going you sit on what you know the the, the, the welcome ex across. ok. we're all things are considered. i'm peter ronelle to remind you were discussing ukraine and here the

. okay, let's go back to john in paris. i, it's about, you know, i've debated what's going on and you create ever since it started in and always gets down to really time lines and perception of time and how, what needs to be achieved. i, my position has been from the get go is changed very, very little. is it? this conflict will come to an end when russia is ready and when it believes that security has been guaranteed. now, however, that is, i don't know, no one knows at this point here, but what is the knock on effect for nato nato is facing an abject failure. okay, and i don't see how it comes back from it. and then even more so these looney tunes running the european union. what cost, what, what consequences do they face if any? because if you disagree with them, they just disappear, you incense, are you. so i think they feel that they have a, a, a free pass for a to do, go down these ridiculous pilot. probably there's

a green mania ukraine. just gender nonsense. a no consequences if they can control all the media. john. yeah, but i mean, we're in the situation of the former soviet union with yeah, so it looks like a logical domination. uh, there is an absolutely fanatical pursuit of a series of policies, a series of ideologies. rather the ones you've just listed, climate, you know, good. the great, the green transition, the green deals agenda, madness and so on, all of which have in common the idea the, the, the crazy idea of the faithful can see because refrigerate from high put to that reality can be made to, to bends to the human will and that reality can be dictated by pollution. and of course that's a that can see it is now coming to a grizzly end in the, in the fields of ukraine, about the political capital invested in this, at a. so it meant that they will never be able to get out of it. and i confidently

predict that if we have a discussion in 10 years time about ukraine's accession process to the european union, it will still be on the agenda because these things just go on indefinitely and the sort of game of institutional make believe. meanwhile, as you suggest and your question, the money is how much or how many hemorrhaging out? because yes, they've promised to uh, take me recently on the last week, i think they, the, the european union said it would support ukraine for as long as it takes. so they think they're in it for the long game. one of the a strategies of nato and the americans was indeed to lou a russia into a trap. and to get russia in tangled bog down in ukraine and in various insurgencies, perhaps even within roster itself. that was the that was the ask. and his style model, which was a proposed law in 2022 by us by the american admiral. that's that model,

of course, was part of the nato strategy. and no doubt in the 1st months of the will. they were very happy that they so russia had walked into the trap. the only problem is the time is on russia site deb lydon, mobile, the idea that tracking them into an s got his style style. i've got his own style it through insurrection which they will son wish the americans will funds that so very well to have that to the mobile. and they did indeed last for 20 years. but we all know who won in the end. it wasn't the americans. so i think restaurant time is on russia side, but i do think that this conflict frozen a lot of whatever intensity will now last for 51020 is well, matthew, but it gets all down to capacity. i mean, how many more bodies do you, does ukraine have to throw into this conflict? unless, unless they want to expand the war and how invite you know, polish troops in romanian troops in bulgarian groups. and i don't know why they would do that. okay. i mean, if one do it,

2 words come to mind over the last 8 months. it's a meat grinder. i don't see people stepping up that way, you know, clearing out, you know, your warehouse is of old. soviet dear is one thing and that's essentially what they've done. okay. and then the promise of all these, these trinkets here, they're mostly promises. yeah. some of the tanks are going and they're not going to make a difference and they know it. ok. i tend to think, you know, obviously that there are these planners. i mean, who came up with the idea of just on could address it from this with system, you know, taking the door and the roof will fall when i'm sure somebody was peddling that 18 months ago. okay. and it didn't work these, these trinkets, these are these military um drinking, so they the west, the ssl is around the world that doesn't work like the patriot with ask the saudis, if it works. okay. i mean, i, there's at a certain point of capacity where, you know, you can keep throwing something at it and get 0 results and, and as john says, i mean it, this does cost money. and it's always at the expense of what you can do at home.

matthew, you know, yeah, absolutely. the entire taking out of russia was always celebrate. it's giving great economic time or the nuclear, a economic time bomb that was always going to be launched as a special weapon of mass destruction against russia. and here it is in reference, not destroyed there. they're actually in a better place, a, as iran had already discovered how this works. i know, i, i think if anything, the, the, of create a very, very different situation a different world has arisen that is much more secure with their alliances. you know, the, again, way i've already just mentioned russia trying to around the whole multiple or lines . there's a much greater awareness that they're in this for their theirs, their, their survival, the survival of civilization as a whole. in order to, to create diplomatic bridges and economic lines of communication that allow for capacity building and building durable systems that can endure the coming storm. of the, of an economic meltdown of the west. and i think that sort of always hovering in

the air behind the economic or the, the military decisions being made is there's this impending doom of the banking system centered in, in a wall street in the london, the entire transatlantic banking community is sitting on a on a on people, debts that are propping of bubbles that are, that are melting down. we're going to collapse phase. so there is a certain hectic, next to try to create. i think, the kick over the chessboard. let's just say it that way. in order to then try to rearrange the rules of the game in the favor of those una paul risk of the trans blanket community that they want to control the world. and the majority of the world is simply not having it. um that's, that's just part of it. yeah, it's, it's very interesting, john, because you and i have talked about this many times in this program about the cultural and civilizational angle of it, which never is never mentioned in western media because they're all neo liberals and secular. and so again, they don't understand the value of culture and civilization, and more more people when they have the strength and the capacity will defend that

. we've seen that all 2 of these complex it's john. i have heard that we're rapidly running out of time. but i did, this is my kind of problem. notice i usually don't say it in public, but i think so it ukraine will survive as some kind of rump state, but it will still have it's banned a ride leadership. and maybe i don't know if zelinsky survives or not, but it's very curious, isn't it? that brussels is going to be adopting a little fast as child to take care of? i think that's not a good look, john. no, but i think that's what they will do because of the rule if we take the 20. ready 8 georgian will, i mean, so i guess really was maybe not the fascist about he if school started that little conflict and then lost it and he was in favor for a very long time. so there's no reason why given that precedent, they shouldn't do the same thing with ukraine. and perhaps in due course, the same thing will happen in ukraine, but in a very long in, you know, in the much longer time, that's happened in georgia. whereas, you know,

things moved on and the, the crazies eventually lost, lost power and more realistic politicians came to power and that's a really, is a very long way off. and indeed on the country a hold up in places like poland and of course in washington dc, you know, having a wet dreams about the publish list you and you and coming well and basically expanding poland into, into ukraine and all the rest of it. so yeah, i mean, everyone is going to carry on with the fantasies. uh but um, i just repeats in whatever form, whether it's in terms of military operations on the ground that economic will fab political welfare, including in the cultural domain. this conflict will continue for the foreseeable future. there are absolutely no conditions. i cannot see any conditions under which does we've, you said in your earlier questions, either russia or the western side will talk to each other. are they the collapse of

confidence on both sides? a so total that instead we are in the for a war of session on all levels on the multi spectrum war of attrition. so as i say, even if it doesn't, even if militarily not much happens, it will of course, continue economically in the form of unconventional will fit and such and see obviously political welfare in sanctions and sell them as matthew has very rightly and very well put it the question is, who cannot hold out longer? very often. that's what, how was that decided? yeah. you, it's a older matter of timing. and as we have indeed seen older stuff about russia having an economy, the sides of spain, which you could just push over with the, with your finger tip is obviously untrue. not just because it's being proved to be on to. but also because they, the figures used to take to, to, to say that tons of nonsense themselves nonsense, you know, g, d, p, figures are all very well. but if, if americans u d p, is it just a little bit of a paid lawyers? it doesn't help you win a war,

whereas if russian gdp is about building tank, so building as hypersonic, missiles or whatever. then of course that strengthens ross at rush disposition. and i know i totally agree with what matthew said about the multiple. well, you know, we talked about china and russia of strengthening that are lines yes. and the wrong . yes, that's will fine. but what about saudi arabia that really is the pivot you? oh yes. yeah, that will do. that was not and excluded country. that is, you know, one of the absolute sense of pieces of american hegemony in the middle east and indeed in the wide world. and there we go. react has now turned its back, i would say on washington so. so the outlook is i would have full, yes, a favorable to russia. but as i say, we've got a long way to go then the fact there is no end in sight from the western point of view, nor indeed from the russian point of view. because as we, as we set into the question, the russians have lost full confidence or confidence in the western leadership. and

they, they are unlikely i think, to sign in this thing with these people for a very, very long time to come. you know, and matthew real quickly here, it really is. it seems to me that the west is digging its own grave. and it's all because of ideology and greed a 32nd samantha, go see yeah, 30 seconds. uh no, no, i couldn't agree with anything. with that, i couldn't agree more as what genre said um no indeed the the, the, i don't think that there is enough humility existence in the the technocratic elite of the westray. now that i think there does need to be a sort of track of reality slamming into the zeitgeist of the governing class, which is coming on fast. i think the economic collapse is going to be that, that physical slap of reality, which will then force a crisis whereby feed people are, are going to be forced to deal with the, the consequence of believing and stupid and wrong, and corrupt ideas for too many decades well, no matter what, am i, i have a prediction here. i don't care what year it happens. but you know what? they'll get to say it was trump's fault. that's the trump and russia, you know,

whatever combination. thank you gentlemen. fascinating conversation, want to take my guess in paris and in montreal. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at archie. so you next time, remember, ross talk was the, the, in whom those will be all these believe that life as a full set goes that all the is ups and downs india. before the british was that it just nation with the highest gdc in the word. and wide of the 100 years of british truly bring it to this low off some 50, attracting the late 30. it's banking and give us no deeper party.

they have no right to feed my property. my. i don't my blocks, they went through all of our big spaces i was see, could spaces off uh san angelo wiley and out the spaces inside the word loop also in the word which is now closer to the english big city. so quite selling lead. even the hidden, the would have been looted into the english lexical and take a fresh look around. there's a life kaleidoscopic, isn't just a shifted reality distortion by power to division with no real opinions. fixtures designed to simplify will confuse who really wants a better wills,

and is it just as a chosen few fractured images presented as 1st? can you see through their illusions, going underground again? the woman is killed as ukrainian falls. the shell residential areas of the in yet with us abide high mazda rule kids. it comes one day after 7 civilians, including 2 children, were wounded by you, creating artillery in the neighboring town. also ahead of the colonial era is over and africa will solve its own problems independently. according to bush and foreign minister said again after all, 2 minutes, his simonian count spot to discuss if i left the side of security in africa. and because of the big zine when solutions were in boston, africa from west new capitals is invariably passing and one must get used to the fact.