know that the united states has been selling more gas and higher prices, so they're making money from that as well. so of course, like they loved the past, they're on something that we keep hearing from them. time and time again, we've invested and i mean, invested $66000000.00 in ukraine this year. so for this investment, i think it's well worth it. how? like the structural path. we're on here, as long as the way up you crane with the weapons, they need an economic support. they will fight to the last person, the united states, a jew crane, and her people. so that we can fight russia over there and we don't have to fight russia here. strange once again that this is the rhetoric that us officials are selling to their people because of russia is not a threat to them, but they keep selling it like that time and time again. and so regardless of whether this was an edit or not, and this particular case, we have seen before from us officials saying that's they just want russians killed

. and we've seen what happened before and how happy they were when we've had terrorist attacks on the russian soil. that they're not condemn, and that's just a lot of you know, track record to go on. you're watching r t international and we'll be back with more news and just about 30 minutes. so stay to the the 6 has started a new great many western official substances of buying a mark out loud, and they are subtle. ukraine is fairly small puzzle. part of a much more grandiose agenda the

sooner it's nancy and welcome back to going on the ground broke us the all around the world from do buying the you a if you saw that last week g 7 summit was just thinking only child's play designed to promote competitive giants rusher in china, you may be looking into was this some is brick summit, who would have thought that the economic alliance breaks comprising brazil rusher, india, china, and south africa could rise up as a serious arrival to the g 7. that would be the goldman sachs economist who famously coined the acronym brick over 20 years ago. when we use a conservative government just a little jim. o'neil joins me now from london from a park. i think at lauderdale. thank you so much for coming on. i know you

sometimes despair. the fact is the only acronym that is, uh, so famously allied to your name with the, with the added as obviously, um, as a g 7 nato, was it well with the are the see, it seems the russia, china, brazil president is being on this show me recovering off to us back who's against him and dillman was of, was it some kind of target list? the most amusing uh, no surprise. some people might think about why um, you know, what a, what a son style baz um. one of the only few things positively that happened on the back of global governance was the creation of the jury. each wednesday after the financial crisis, which of course brought the bricks, countries in with the most developed countries on the emerging nations. and here we

have the g 7 in some ways trying to behave as those they still little the world. and i'm show for the breaks countries. certainly john, and i'm not sure it is going to be regarded as another officer, real football. it's a pain i'm, it's gone, see how it's particularly fruitful for anybody to be honest. i know you've made many nuances to the idea over time. i'll just take us back very quickly before we get to the present day. how revolutionary your idea was given that i think i was in dubai and 1999 when foreign policy magazine famously associated with us intelligence agencies and who knows what else and this is all over below and china is finished. uh huh. so uh, i mean it was uh, 911 that started me on a actually in 2001 all the way. uh, i was actually in one of the buildings when, um, uh, not

a charge of doing supplies, but um, only reflections. i read it pump strangely, is a symbol of the world is kind of had enough of the americanization of the world as we knew it. and it was against the background. and how you asked the question of me being really impressed without john and bill by his own key role in bringing an end to the uh, 1998 uh, asian financial thrusts. um, it led me to think we, we need to somehow develop loads in which discipline philosophies, different cultures, different political beliefs. and regimes can somehow coincide or co exist, but we still have some kind of rules of engagement around the world. so make the world a better place um and i find myself in explaining it, but i thinking my goal is to really go very far in 22 years. but for

a brief period with a another g 20 projects. and it was qualitatively philosophical in that way. but also quantitative since then we've had just in the past few weeks, there's now been some scandal about the setting of interest rates and with a couple of together the famous library interest rate to scandal with the cannot even so central banks. how can we trust data? i mean, i'm going to get on to commodity prices, which i think is so important to your brakes. the concept anyway, how do we trust to economic indicates is, i know that breaks as a pos just in the past few weeks in terms of g, d, b, those are the g p of the g 7. how do we trust economic indicates is, i guess the most frank way of beginning to answer is no academics is at the end of the day of social science. and all it can do with data is give you

a snapshots at the moment in time of what's going on anywhere based on conventional techniques. and roy wasn't a legit for what i'm not sure. deutscher, bank barclay, city j be moving to help us. i think some of them settled without any liability. these are, and as you mentioned, because so many people was saying that china was forging it. today's a, this is about it is a social science maybe, but measure of g, p measuring interest rates, measuring commodity prices and looking at the minute elation. how is the future economist going to come up with a new acronym like breaks for whatever it is? if all the dates are, is being accused of being fraudulent. i mean, to be honest, i think you're mixing in lots of different things with this question. uh does that, can i mean data uh, which independent invoice of that's along the lines all over the world and my opinion on which is what i spent so long going and then the overall uh,

interest rate. some of those things to do with running of the financial system, which i wouldn't describe is economic go to the financial side. so um there was, uh, a system put in place that lost it for many years. but the cool issue that goes to this part of your questions, the, the regulatory van, jean, i'm one of the regular uses uh, monitoring, properly loopholes, the individual financial organizations, all the sector in general. and i forgot to be james the system for, but i don't think that's anything to do with academic dice. i think the, the reason i'm asking is funny because of what's happening in ukraine. actually. i know you've said that you've funded whether russia should have been in breaks as you formulated it. but uh, why is it that the only advise the politicians were telling us that russia would be

finished off by sanctions? and russia really hasn't. and if anything is going to be seems to be doing better than the the country for where you're speaking to me from. i think the 3 things link so why so fall? well, she was doing back to the country was imposed sanctions. relieved. first of all, links completely with the brakes and why other countries in the emerging market nations are the currently talking about potentially coming come out of the bits alliance will show reply, still always lost textbook seemingly, particularly oil and gas uh to other possible well, uh, maybe india is a particularly intriguing example of a country let's put in an economic interest the needs of the hospital that we're going to do. and that's obviously being a, a significant increase in

a market for russia and lots of, lots of things obviously going on, dive at maybe 3 in russia in china. so that's the 1st thing i think the 2nd thing is that's because of what happened with prices, particularly just bosses for the 1st 6 months of a sanctions event, but, but the total value of stuff, but russian was getting a bit from less conventional markets was, was worth more and so for the russian balance of payments, the wasn't a kind of shock than perhaps some of those policy main cuz i've originally sold. and then as it relates to on a relative basis, obviously because of a huge rise and inflation, money west and central banks have spent the whole of the last year raising interest rates dramatically. which i just changed in different countries, but still have to slow down the cyclical house of battery. cannot make performances

in ways of trying to inflation on the control. and so i won't think back on something a lot, you know, is not entirely clear as you go through time. whether will she will continue to be able to cope with the persistence of sanctions. not least because uh, as we've just seen that as juice of amazing, despite what i said earlier. uh the, the scale of sanctions are getting sofa. and if uh, the western alliance really, uh, is very successful in applying sanctions on russia's access to critical technology . but i'm not, i guess over time i is going to start counting, russia. modem is probably currently, i mean, guys, problem just in the past few days, the russian operator reporting that they have increased supplies of energy to the europe in union. and uh, similar uh, similar uh, statistics coming out to about the black market. do you believe that the us

destroyed the north stream pipeline? you began that whole description about the energy supplies because some people in the global south think the g 7 nations itself sanctioning themselves and visual image. this a that spike in energy prices that it good because of the sanctions. listen, i think uh if you go with the dropbox. uh well let's do, mike, is my absolute differently about the kind of sanctions that we're gonna undertaking adults? ah, i have not heard of that brother. i'm using, i do the us blowing up in the old stream pipeline account quite imagine why that do that? well, whatever is the base of the table hush you said the exit economist did of terrifying gr off. i have it here saying that the more people died of 2223 from the rising energy price of 68000, then cove. 868000 people in your we don't know how many people die because of cold

in europe. as the cell sanctioning happened. and the north stream was destroyed. those who believe small hushes the exclusive believing that was obviously to sell germany relying on russian energy as opposed to important natural gas from fracking in the united states. i'm not aware of that report, but to be honest with you, it sounds black funds to go to me. um i have no idea what's behind on it just for the fact all sense. okay, well what about uh, this uh, the dollarization, which is the big question uh, people are asking ahead of, uh the break. so i'm in the, in, in south africa. i have the g 20 in, in india. you, you've said it doesn't actually matter that much, but on the other hand, does it matter a lot because you can, but you mentioned interest rates, us interest rates for a while. they try and always keep

a stable currency in the united states. that can be a virtual peg, but all the trade can be done within g 20 countries outside of any kind of us control is or what. so i've just written something about this topic again in the process of doing it a few times in the past 2 months because it's become such a popular pain in the run up to the big summit. and i have, i have 2 very strongly contradictory views. the 1st of which is the eventually uh, as we saw in the united kingdom and uh, the world's most to be used currency will need some of the be the of the world's most important economists. so the idea of the dollar will remain king for that. but uh, i think is probably unlikely. can you give me a time scale out of we had some obama,

especially advisor on the other day. so 2060, you are usually right about things when, when is it going to be? i have no idea. i am sufficiently experience enough in finance to say anybody but attempts to do that is place to stop raving. mats are not gonna, it was the time when i was supposed to be known as the chain of with foreign exchange market and foreign exchange market. as a habit of making complete idiots out people, even thing. and i was talking about pretty quickly, thoughts what i want. so i am linked to that sound as i'm so uh, you know, the version of the whole of my, i guess is now what's the use of looking at global economic and financial size. uh, this is not the 1st on the paper talks about the box. it happens every other year, if not with the same incense they always and it's never happen. yeah. um and if you

look at the history of the pounds, sterling and it's it's still in the nation. well, financial markets, if assisted well beyond when the u. k. economy started has become much smaller as a share, a global shooting pay. and so at some point the dollar will lose its dominant states. i do think if china and india could have a really strongly agree on things as the 2 biggest countries in the emerging world and they don't, they said it was more of an opinion paper inch. and that would probably hasten the end of the dollars dominance. low germany, i'll stop you, the more from the goldman sachs asset management jim and who's going the acronym break after this break? the

hi, i'm accepted and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show . seriously. why watch something that's so different whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please do the have the state department, the c i a weapons makers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead, change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time. but again, it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way you see

the welcome back to going undergoing. i'm still with lord jim o'neil, the former goldman sachs asset management chapman who coined the acronym break. we've gone pretty when exactly a detail rise ation is going to manifest itself right across the world. why do you say india has done so? well, i mean, some people would say it has more above it, even though this ups are in africa put together. and yet your saying that together, i mean, is it just population at the india or in china, then making friends something that the right there are people in washington arguably trying to trying to prevent of why, why would that be so important as well? because if you look at how the, the shape of the world economy is shifted since the breaks uh, idea. uh, china is obviously at least until recently been spectacularly successful. and i

think you touched on earlier because of that in purchasing power policy terms. the bridge of judy pain is now stronger than the other g 7 but and dollars. so i think it's only even pvp. i is 31.5 percent for breaks and g $730.00 is a much i don't think it's the case and enrollment of dollars because because of what's happened to the russian rubel and the bazillion rail actually uh the economy is measured in dollars on a much weaker uncircumcised on the las vegas and you, i mean, the reason why i want, i'm going to draw on site is because of jonathan india. so those 2 become more and more relevant economically, not just inside the books, but also for the will be drawn in india as already of it's i confirmed some, okay,

to be the 5th largest economy in the world on it. and it's on its way to challenging germany, probably by the end of the decade. and, and that means obviously by definition along with china, what goes on in those 2 places is increasingly relevant to gene pay. now. so the other part of your question i'm thinking is a very important issue about publishing. yeah. global like an a, sorry country's economic drugs and phones. this is driven by 2 simple things along the number of people that are working on. secondly, the photo, tennessee, and yes, india has an enormous demographic dividend. and one of the reasons that dr. operates projection nice and i still stock is made when i say it in the middle of it still over the periods from say 2010 through so 2035 in the increase in india is working population will be as much as the home combined russian population and before law,

just continental european countries. so that in itself makes it easier for india took available. uh, if they could boost that product service a lot of they could actually grow with those demographics. my other 10 percent. yeah. for the best buy lot to kind it's not about what the tools accelerate not only induce growth, right. but how to reduce what is still simply a very large number of people living in publish. when i go to ask you about the fact that it has all these sorts of countries that uh, i bought of the brakes and that there's so many that seem to want to join rusher supports the arrival of saudi arabia, hands down in iran and so on. what, what do you think they will be discussing when it comes to us treasury bill exposure. i know in the american media that tool equals time about the debt ceiling, which i don't know whether we can just not talk about it because it's

a large we um, what kind of a tabloid story somebody'd say, but us treasury bill exposure is all gonna be a more important issue in the global. so do you think well, if it relates to what we searched on a few minutes ago, to be honest. and this in itself would be a sign of, of the persistence of the dollar bill in order for the dollar to in the house to be some alternative. and it is quite interesting as you've just very clearly pointed out why a lot of the noise about the invitation of the dollar comes from, which is from some of these aspiring bricks countries that alarms look, keep buying lots of short types of us bills. and so they themselves, some of the bricks group could play a huge role of to come up with an alternative way. investors wanna homepage that liquidity instead of the us to how camille and what would in the chinese government

say if they want to do one, why they have been progressively buying fewer and fewer treasury bills divesting themselves over it. but it's still $867000000.00 of official japan and the top with a $1.00 trillion dollars are us treasury debt. how would you advise it? cuz they obviously don't want to destroy their own economies by withdrawing the by setting off the debt. i mean, i, i do so to policy makers in some of these countries about these issues and i have actually published on this uh, quite frequently. and i'd say 2 things. first of all, it would be nice to see the bricks, political leaders meeting, having some real ambition of specific things to achieve other than really just giving symbolic messages and jobs. particularly in terms of accepting new

members. i think they should ask themselves, what is it a new member is going to bring what we call a cheap without them. uh. and they started to go through about kind of mental process. then you can start to seriously think about why the fix countries could be the basis of some new kind of not only currency, but some new kind of compasses to, to the us financial system. but if you're not going to do that and have both kind of detailed discussions, then a lot of it is just sort of noise. that's good goes away on the financial markets, never anything like. the 2nd thing i would say, which is most specific to certain punches a china, as many people have often said, directly, has a very, very launch domestic saving to i, which is why invest some frequently outside of china loan. why, you know, having the same needs to find things on us. treasury been with us treasury palms,

so wouldn't be for them. so out simply reduce the domestic savings ratio and baffled that have less money. so investor sees an importantly one of the by products i think would be to encourage even trust devices. a personal consumption lies in, in china and not with benefits. china citizens and honestly, uh, an offsets. anything they should be wondering about about the consequences of not having so many us treasury. yeah. some people saying they can't even so they can't even satisfy their own. then move on in the next few years in china who, who knows, but uh, what about those who say the, there are problems in the european union in the united states that are insurmountable in the face of what's going on in the rest of the world. i don't know why you think um, reportedly mama been solomon and, and be said here in the united i remember it's did non sub i was called to reduce

both to increase output and reduce oil prices. do you think that symptomatic of what's happening with bricks, power? i know you just said that they need revolution re decision making rather than appeal. but wasn't that a demonstration of our i mean, you know, i'm, i'm calling 3. i don't what i'm calling for his revolution, which is go focus on trying to have, i think the federal reserve would say its revolutionary if you, if they announced in this, i forget they were going to intend, on a massive sell off of you as a treasury bills as well, you know, at some point in the future goes to the re occuring. and so a central claim about discussion at some point in the future, those kind of things will happen if the big country is uh, becoming a big,

a big issue. i have a global gene base, particularly individual ones, lot stronger than just something live a is going to happen to be try tell me the account. i much in the us would be the stress if south africa that as a specific guy still going and asked them although they were going to get rid of the us treasury was because i don't think they would believe it would be a particularly emotional influence on the bus, if the whole country has said it together, obviously will be there just to find the i know you've been increasingly interested in the micro micro beale resistance and health care and other issues. julian hassan, who is imprisoned in london, is talked about war as a massive laundromat of money helping weapons companies as sort of keynesian militarism. what, how dangerous a war and in terms of healthcare people are talking about how of the

kinds of private health care systems that exist on know. and i know that you've advocated naturalized systems recently. how important is it for democratic structures to get hold of the financial system in western europe and the united states when it comes to health care? when it comes to war? i mean, you're asking me, i lots of things as part of what i have to have you want to go usually talk about mike of the, the resist took it out in the biotech system a whole lot going on 6 stuff. i'm throwing them onto microbial resistance. is probably the most interesting thing i've ever done in my life. and this is why we need to somehow find a global system of goodman slide. the g 20 that works because if we don't, we are going to end up in the next 20 to 30 is of

a world in which we don't have answered by all 6 the work. i'm much of how my generation and your generation is. live dislikes is not going to be able to consume and be these. all things should distinguish between black and white, male and female. uh, although she will, america, these are things that we have shed. interest in making shows the 9 in floods know germany. thank you. and that's it for the show. we'll be back with a brand new episode on saturday. but until then you can give it to us. why will i social media is nonsense and in your country and had to have channel going on. going to be a normal they'll come to watch new and old episodes of going undergrad. so you set the the census sort of the code we give you a great many western officials upset by

a mark out loud. and they are subtle. ukraine is merely a small puzzle piece of a much more grandiose agenda, the bridge alberto on wins. a 3rd term is sort of kias, president in a run off election against opposition leader come all clearly, star loop are the ones victory has put in and do a stand off, which now sets the countries past for the next 5 years. the western leaders have congratulated are the one on his electoral victory and expressed hopes for future cooperation despite several of them calling him a dictator ahead of the vote. twice reasonably presents its intentions to become a.