the, the so a lot of commentary about that story that wrapped up with a sonia of on that end, if you just head over to all, if you don't call them, we'll check out the fed section or even the weld section, you'll find what we're talking about here for the meantime,

thanks for joining us. we all backed at least until the, [000:00:00;00] the map sooner than see and welcome back to going underground broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. a. if you saw that last week's g 7 summit was just thinking on these child's play, designed to promote competitive giants rusher in china. you may be looking towards this some of those brick summit who would have thought that the economic alliance breaks comprising brazil rusher, india, china,

and south africa could run these opposite serious arrival to the g 7. that would be the goldman sachs economies. your famously coined the acronym brick of a 20 years ago when we use a conservative government minister. no, jim. o'neil joins me now from london from a park. i think at lauderdale. thank you so much for coming on. i know you sometimes despair. the fact is the only acronym that is, uh so famously i like to your name uh with the, with the added as obviously, um, at the g 7 nato. was it war with the r c? it seems the russia, china, brazil president is beat on this show on the recovering of to you as back who's against him and dillman resolved with some kind of target list. most amusing. i'm no surprise. some people might think about why. you know what a, what a son style baz um,

one of the only few things positively that happened on the back of global governance was the creation of the jury. each wednesday after the financial crisis, which of course brought the bricks, countries in, with the most developed countries on the emerging nations. and here we have the g 7 in some ways trying to behave as those by still little the loans. and i'm show for the breaks countries. certainly john, and i'm not sure it is going to be regarded as another officer, real football, it's a thing, i mean it's gone, see how it's particularly fruitful for anybody to be honest. i know you've made many nuances to the idea over time and just take us back very quickly before we get to the present day. how revolutionary your idea was given that i think i was in dubai and 1999 when foreign policy magazine famously associated with us intelligence agencies. and who knows what else said,

this is all over below and china is finished. uh huh. so uh, i mean it was uh, 911 that started me on a actually in 2001 all the way. uh, i was actually in one of the buildings when um uh, not a charge of doing supplies, but um, on the reflection, i read it prompt strangely as a symbol of the world as kind of had enough of the americanization of the world as we knew it and it was against the background and how you asked the question of me being really impressed without john and bill by his own key role in bringing in and so the uh, 1998 uh, asian financial crusts. um, it makes us think we, we need to somehow develop loads in which discipline philosophies, different cultures, different political beliefs,

and regimes can somehow coincide or co exist, but we still have some kind of rules of engagement around the world tonight, the world a better place um and i find myself in explaining it, but i thinking my goal to really go very far in 22 years. um, but for a brief period with a another g 20 projects. and it was qualitatively philosophical in that way, but also quantitative. since then, we've had, just in the past few weeks, there's now being some scandal about the setting of interest rates and with a couple of together the same as libel, interest rate to scandal with the connivance of central banks. i. how can we trust dates or, i mean, i'm going to get on to commodity prices, which i think is so important deal breaks the concept. anyway. how do we trust to economic indicates is i know that breaks as

a pos just in the past few weeks in terms of g, d, b, those of the g d p of the g 7. but how do we trust economic indicators? i guess the most frank way of beginning to i'm so is that, you know, i cannot mix is at the end of the day of social science. and all it can do with data is give you a snapshots, a moments in sign of what's going on anywhere based on conventional techniques. and roy doesn't legit for what i'm not sure. deutscher, bank barclay, city j be moving to help us. i think some of them settled without any liability visa, and as you mentioned, because so many people was saying that china was watching it today. so this is about it is a social science maybe, but measure g, p measuring interest rates, measuring commodity prices. i'm looking at the middle relation, how is the future economist going to come up with a new acronym like breaks for whatever it is. if all the dates are,

is being accused of being fraudulent. i mean, to be honest, i think you're mixing in lots of different things with this question. uh does that can only data uh, which independent amaris that's along the lines all over the world and my opinion on which is what i spend so long going and then the overall uh, interest rate. some of those things to do with running of the financial system, which i wouldn't describe is economic. that's the financial type. so the was a system put in place that lost it for many years. but the cool issue that goes to this part of your questions, the, the regulatory event gene, and whether the regular license or monitoring promptly loopholes, the individual financial organizations, all the sector in general. and i forgot to be james the system for,

but i don't think that's anything to do with economic dice sprung high. think of the reason i'm asking is partly because of what's happening in ukraine. actually. i know you've said that you've funded whether russia should have been in breaks as you formulate to data. but uh, why is it that the all the advice and all the politicians were telling us that russian would be finished off by sanctions. and russia really hasn't. and if anything it's going to me seems to be doing better than the the country for where you're speaking to me from. i think the 3 things link so why so fall real. she was doing back to the country was imposed sanctions. relieved. first of all, links completely with the brakes and why other countries in the emerging market nations are i currently talking about potentially coming out? part of the dates alliance will show reply,

still august lost textbook seemingly particularly oil and gas uh to other parts of the world. and maybe in due is a particularly intriguing example of a country. let's put its own economic interest, the needs of the hospital that we're going to do on that. so obviously being uh, a significant increase in a market for russia and lots of lots of things obviously going on directly between russia and china. so that's the 1st thing i think the 2nd thing is that's because of what happened with prices, particularly just bosses for the 1st 6 months of a sanctions event, but the total value of stuff. but russian was getting a bit from less conventional markets was, was worth more. and so for the russian balance of payments that was kind of shocked . and perhaps some of those publish it mine cuz i've originally sold. and then as

it relates to on a relative basis, obviously because of a huge rise and inflation, money west and central banks have spent the whole of the last year raising interest rates dramatically. which i just changed in different countries, but still have to slow down the cyclical house for battery. cannot make performances in ways of trying to inflation on the control. and so i won't think back on something a lot, you know, is not entirely clear as you go through time. whether will she will continue to be able to cope with the persistence of sanctions. not least because uh, as we're just saying that this juice of amazing, despite what i said earlier, uh the, the scale of sanctions are getting sofa. and if uh, the western alliance really uh, is to be successful in applying sanctions on russia's access to critical technology . but i'm not, i guess over time i is going to start counting,

russia. modem is probably currently, i mean, guys, problem just in the past few days, the russian operator reporting that they have increased supplies of energy to europe in union. and uh, similar uh, similar uh, suggest is coming out to about the black market. do you believe that the us destroyed the north stream pipeline? you began that little description about the energy supplies because some people in the global south think the g 7 nations itself sanctioning themselves and visual image. this a that spike in energy prices that it good because of the sanctions. listen, i think uh if you wrote the dropbox uh, policy makers, my of to differently about the kind of sanctions they, they were gonna undertaken adults. i have not heard of that brother. i'm using, i do the us blowing up in the old stream pipeline account quite imagine why that do

that? well, that was the base of the table hush. you said the exit economist did a terrifying gr off. i have it here saying that the more people died of 2223 from the rising energy price of 68000 then cove. 868000 people in your and we don't know how many people died because of cold in europe as the ssl sanctioning happened. and the north stream was destroyed. those who believe small bushes, the exclusive believing that was obviously to sell germany relying on russian energy as opposed to important natural gas from fracking in the united states. i'm not aware of that report, but to be honest with you, it sounds black funds simple to me. um i have no idea what's going on on it just, i'm sure the packet all sense. okay, well what about uh, this uh, the dollarization, which is the big question. uh, people are asking ahead of uh,

the brick summit in, in south africa. i have the g 20 in, in india. you, you've said it doesn't actually matter that much. but on the other hand, does it matter a lot because you can, but you mentioned interest rates, us interest rates for a while. they try and always keep a stable currency in the united states. that can be a virtual bag. but all the trade can be done within g 20 countries outside of any kind of us control. is it what i've just written, something about this topic again and fonts. have done it a few times in the past 2 months because it's become such a popular pain in the run up to the big summit. and i have, i have 2 very strongly contradictory views, the 1st of which is the eventually uh, as we saw in the united kingdom and uh,

the world's most to be used currency will need somebody be the of the world's most important economists. so the idea of the dollar will remain king for that, but i, i think is probably unlikely. did you give me a time scale though? we had some obama, especially advisor on the other day. said 2060 you are usually right about things when when's it going to be? i have no idea. i am sufficiently experience enough in finance to say any building attempts to do that is place to stop raving mounts. and you know, it was the time when i was supposed to be known as the chain of with foreign exchange market and foreign exchange market. as a habit of making complete idiots out people, even thing. and i was talking about pretty quickly, thoughts what i once i am linked to that sounds, i'm so uh, you know, the version,

the whole of my guess is now what's the use of looking at global economic and financial fans. uh, this is not the 1st on paper talks about the box. it happens and 3 of the yeah. and if not with the same incense they always. i mean it's never happened. yeah. um, and if you look at the history of the pounds, sterling and it's, it's still nation real financial markets, it possessed as well be owns when the u. k. economy started has become much smaller as a shared global shooting pay. and so at some point a dollar will lose its dominant states. i do think if china and india could have a really strongly agree on things as the 2 biggest countries in the emerging world, and the only 2 was my living in the opinion, paperless. and that would probably hasten the end of the dollars dominance. low germany. i'll stop you, the more from the goldman sachs asset management jim. and who's going the acronym

brick after this break the the, the, the, [000:00:00;00]

the the the welcome back to going on the garden. i'm still with lord jim o'neil, the former goldman sachs asset management chapman who's going the acronym break. we've gone predict when exactly a deal rise ation is going to manifest itself right across the world. why do you say india has done so? well, i mean, some people would say it has more positive notice of our and african put together. and yet you're saying that together. i mean, is it just population at the india or in china, then making friends something that the right there are people in washington, i'll give them the trying to trying to prevent of why, why would that be so important? well, because if you look at how the shape of the world economy is shifted since the brakes

uh idea, uh, china is obviously at least until recently been spectacularly successful. and i think you touched on it earlier because of that in purchasing power parity terms, the bridge of judy thing is now stronger than the other g 7. but and don't. so i think it's only even pvp. i is 31.5 percent for breaks and g $730.00 is a much i don't think it is the case in enrollment of dollars because because of what's happened to the russian rouble in the present in rail actually uh, the economy is measured in dollars on a much weaker uh, insulting size and the those are the, the figures you, i mean, the reason why what i'm gonna go on site is because of china and india. so those 2

become more and more relevant economically, not just inside the books, but also for the world, the toner in india. as already of it's i confirmed some, okay, to be the 5th largest economy in the world. and it, and it's on its way to challenging germany probably by the end of the decade. and, and that means obviously by definition along with china, what goes on in those 2 places is increasingly relevant to gene pay. now. so the other part of your question uh, i think it is a very important issue about publishing. yeah. global like an a, sorry country's economic drugs. the problem is this is driven by 2 simple things. one, the number of people that are working on. secondly, the photo, tennessee, and yes, india has an enormous demographic dividend. and one of the reasons that drove out breaks projection nice. and i still stock is made when i say this, we're in the middle of it still over the periods from say 2000 and

a time through so 2035 in the increase in india as working population would be as much as the whole combined russian population and before law, just continental european countries. so that in itself makes it easier for india to provide remotes. uh if they could boost that product service a lot of they could actually grow with those demographics. my other 10 percent. yeah. the best spot to kind, it's not about what the tools accelerate not only induce growth, right? how to reduce what is still simply a very large number of people living in publish. and i've got to ask you about the fact that has all these sorts of countries that uh, i bought of the brakes and that there's so many that seem to want to join rusher supports the arrival of saudi arabia and his dad and iran and so on. what, what do you think they will be discussing when it comes to us treasury bill

exposure. i know in the american media that told people of time about the debt ceiling, which i don't know whether we can just not talk about it because it's a large we um i kinda tabloid stories i might say. but us treasury bill exposure is all gonna be a more important issue in the global south. do you think? well, if it relates to what we searched on a few minutes ago, to be honest. and this in itself would be a sign of the persistence of the dollar bill in order for the dollar to in the house to be some alternative. and it is quite interesting as you've just very clearly pointed out, wherever a lot of the noise about the invitation of the dollar comes from, which is from some of these aspiring bricks countries that along the look, keep buying lots of short types of us bills and so they themselves, some of the bricks group could play

a huge role of to come up with an alternative way. investors wanna homes, that liquidity instead of the us to how camille and what would in the chinese government say, if they want to do one, why they have been progressively buying fewer and fewer treasury bills divesting themselves over it. but they're still in $867000000000.00 of official japan and the top with a $1.00 trillion dollars or us treasury that i yeah. how would you advise it? cuz they obviously don't want to destroy their own economies by withdrawing the, by setting off these westat. i mean, i, i do so to policy makers in some of these countries about these issues. and i have actually published on this uh, quite frequently. and i'd say 2 things. first of all, it would be nice to see the bricks, political leaders meeting, having some real ambition of specific things to achieve other than really just

giving symbolic messages and jobs, particularly in terms of accepting new members. and i think they should ask themselves, what is it a new member is going to bring what we call a cheap without them. uh, unless they start to go through about kind of mental process, then you can start to seriously think about why the fix countries could be the basis of some new kind of not only currency, but some new ton of compasses to, to the us financial system. but it's really not going to do that and how both kind of detailed discussions then a lot of it is just sort of noise. that's good, goes around the financial markets, never anything like the 2nd thing i would say, which is most specific to certain functions. uh, china, as many people have often said directly has a very, very launch domestic savings,

right. which is why invest some frequently outside of china law. my not having the same needs to find things on us. treasury been with us treasury homes, so would be for them. so out simply reduce the domestic savings ratio and baffled that have less money. so investor sees an importantly one of the by products i think would be to encourage nathan foss, devices a personal consumption rising in china, not with benefits. china citizens in almost an offset. anything they should be worrying about about the consequences of not having so many us treasury. yeah. some people saying they can't even so they kind of even satisfy their own then move on to in the next few years in china who, who knows. but what about those who say the, there are problems in the european union in the united states that are insurmountable in the face of what's going on in the rest of the world. i don't

know why you think um, reportedly mama been solomon and, and be said here in the united. i remember it's did non sub i was called to reduce both to increase output and reduce oil prices. do you think that symptomatic of what's happening with bricks, power? i know you just said that they need revolution re decision making rather than appeal. but wasn't that a demonstration of power? i mean, you know, i'm, i'm calling 3. i don't what i'm calling for his revolution, which is go focus on trying to have, i think the federal reserve would say it's revolutionary if you, if they announced in this, i thought they were going to intend, on a massive sell off of you as a treasury bills as well. now, at some point in the future, i goes to the reoccurring, and so

a central claim about discussion. at some point in the future, those kind of things will happen if the big country is uh, becoming a big a big issue. i have a global gene base, particularly individual runs, lot stronger than just something lot is going to happen to be quite from that account. i imagine the us would be that stress if south africa that as a specific case study and i asked them, although they were going to get rid of the us treasury was because i don't think they would believe it would be a particularly motional. uh, influence on the price. uh, if the whole, the extra lunches set it together obviously will be there. just to find the, i know you've been increasingly interested in the micro microbial resistance and health care and other issues julia sonjee was imprisoned in london is talked about war as a mass of laundromats of money helping weapons companies. um that sort of keynesian

militarism. what, how dangerous a war and in terms of healthcare people are talking about how of the kinds of private health care systems that exist on know. and i know that you've advocated naturalized systems recently. how important is it for democratic structures to get hold of the financial system in western europe and the united states when it comes to health care? when it comes to war? i mean, you're asking me, i have lots of things as part of what i have to have you want to gauge the song about like of the, the resisting it out in the biotech system. a whole lot going on 6 stuff. i'm throwing them onto microbial resistance. is probably the most interesting thing i've ever done in my life. and this is why we need to somehow find

a global system of government. it's like the g 20 that works because if we don't, we aren't going to end up in the next 20 to 30 years of a world in which we don't have answered by all 6 the work. i'm much of how my generation and your generation is live. this life is not going to be able to consume and be these. all things should distinguish between black and white, male and female. uh, although she will, america. these are things that we have a shared interest in making shows. the 9 implants, no germany, thank you. and that's it for the show will be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then you can get in touch. my last social media is not sensing in your country and had to have channel going on the front of your normal. they'll come to watching you and old episodes of going undergrad. so you set

the the the hi, i'm rick sanchez. and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously. why watch something that's so different. little opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome to please, or do the have the state department and see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your fax for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't marshall state main street because i'm probably going to

make you uncomfortable. my show is called stretching time, but again, it's not. we don't want to watch it because it might just change the way inside the scenes of tear gas and it's done grenades. and because of a, so if you're in protest against the presence of nato led forces in the region, we have talked to the updates for you in this program. the white house threatens to slip son, sions,