of the to so i just about wrapping up the program for now here in the odyssey international, thanks for joining us here for this program. i should say that you can catch up

with any of us stories on all she thought. com also i'll cut through a kilogram channels, but also i want to get an order see. anyway, we look forward to seeing you see the match sooner. it's nancy. i'm welcome back to going on the ground broadcasting all around the world from dubai in the u. a, if you saw that last week's g 7 summit was just thinking on child's play, designed to promote competitive giants rusher and china. you may be looking towards this some of those brick summit who would have thought that the economic alliance breaks comprising brazil rusher, india, china, and south africa could rise up as a serious arrival to the g 7. that would be the goldman sachs economist who

famously coined the acronym brick over 20 years ago. when we use a conservative government minister little jim o'neil joins me now from london from a park. i think at lauderdale. thank you so much for coming on. i know you sometimes despair. the fact is the only acronym that is uh, so famously allied to your name. uh, with the, with the added as obviously, um, as a g 7 nato, was it well with the are the see it seems the russia china, brazil president is beat on this. show me recovering off to us back who's against him and dillman was of wasn't some kind of target list. the most amusing uh, i'm no surprise. some people might think about why, um, you know, what a, what a son style baz um, one of the only few things positively that happened on the bucket. global

governance was the creation of the g h. when say after the financial crisis, which across all the big countries in, with the most developed countries on the emerging nations. and here we have the g 7 in some ways trying to behave as i was very still a little the world. and i'm show for the brakes countries. certainly john, and i'm not sure it is going to be regarded as another officer, real football. it's a thing. i mean it's gone. so yeah, was particularly fruitful for anybody to be honest. i know you've made many nuances to the idea over time. just take us back very quickly before we get to the present day. how revolutionary your idea was given that i think i was in dubai, in 1999 when foreign policy magazine famously associated with us intelligence agencies and who knows what else said, this is all over below and china is finished. uh huh. so uh, i mean,

it was uh, 911 that started me on the actually in 2001 all the way. uh, i was actually in one of the buildings when um uh, a tragedy took place, but um, only reflections i read it prompts strangely as a symbol of the world is kind of had enough of the americanization of the world as we knew it. and it was against the background and how you asked the question of me being really impressed without john and bill by his own key role in bringing an end to the uh, 1998 uh, asian financial thrusts. um it led me to think we, we need to somehow develop roads in which discipline philosophies, different cultures, different political beliefs. and regimes can somehow coincide or co exist. but we still have some kind of rules of engagement around the world to make the

world a better place. um and i find myself in explaining it, but i thinking my goal is to really go very far in 22 years. and one for a brief period with a i've been at the g 20 projects and it was qualitatively philosophical in that way, but also quantitative. since then, we've had just in the past few weeks, there's now been some scandal about the setting of interest rates and with a couple of together the same as live or interest rate to scandal with the connivance of central banks. how can we trust dates or, i mean, i'm going to get on to commodity prices, which i think is so important to your brakes. the concept anyway, how do we trust to economic indicates is i know that breaks as a pos just in the past few weeks. in terms of g, d, b, those are the g p of the g 7. how do we trust economic indicators?

i guess the most frank way of beginning to i'm so is it in an academic says at the end of the day of social science. and all it can do with data is give you a snapshots other moments in time of what's going on anywhere based on conventional techniques. and roy doesn't legit for what i'm not sure. deutscher, bank barclay, city j be moving to help us. i think some of them settled without any liability visa, and as you mentioned, because so many people was saying that china was forging it. today's a, this is about it is a social science maybe, but it's measured g, d, p measuring interest rates, measuring commodity prices, and looking at the minute elation. how is the future economist going to come up with a new acronym like breaks for whatever it is? if all the dates are, is being accused of being fraudulent, i mean, to be honest, i think you're mixing in lots of different things with this question. there's

economic data, which end, depending on the list of that's along the lines all over the world. and my opinion on which is what i spend so long going and then the overall uh, interest rate, some of those things to do with running of the financial system which i wouldn't describe is economic. that's the financial side. so the was a system put in place the last it for many years. but the cool issue that goes to this part of your questions, the, the regulatory event gene, and whether the regular license or monitoring promptly loopholes, the individual financial organizations, all the sector in general. i fat to be games the system for, but i don't think that's anything to do with economic dice. i think the,

the reason i'm asking is funny because of what's happening in ukraine. actually. i know you've said that you've funded whether russia should have been in breaks as you formulated it. but uh, why is it that the only advise and all the politicians were telling us that russian would be finished off by sanctions? and russia really hasn't. and if anything it's going to me seems to be doing better than the the country for where you're speaking to me from. i think the 3 things link so why so fall, go. she was doing back to the country was imposed sanctions. relieved. first of all, links completely with the brakes and why other countries in the emerging market nations are a currently talking about potentially coming from out of the bits alliance will show reply, still always lost textbook seemingly, particularly oil and gas. uh, 2 of the possible well, and maybe in do is

a particularly intriguing example of a country let's put in an economic interest of needs at the hospital that we're going to do. and that's obviously being uh, a significant increase in the market for russia and lots of lots of things obviously going on directly between russia and china. so that's the 1st thing i think the 2nd thing is that's because of what happened with prices, particularly just bosses for the 1st 6 months of a sanctions event, but the total value of stuff. but russian was getting a bit from less conventional markets was, was worth more. and so for the russian balance of payments, there wasn't a kind of shock than perhaps some of those policy main cuz i've originally sold. and then as it relates to a relative prices, obviously because of a huge rise and inflation,

money west and central banks have spent the whole of the last year raising interest rates dramatically. which i just changed in different countries, but so to slow down the cyclical house of battery cannot make performances of ways of trying to inflation on the control. and so i won't think back on something a lot, you know, is not entirely clear as you go through time. whether will she will continue to be able to cope with the persistence of sanctions. not least because uh, as we've just seen that as juice of amazing, despite what i said earlier, that the scale of sanctions are getting sofa. and if uh, the western alliance really uh, is to be successful in applying sanctions on russia's access to critical technology . but i'm not, i would guess over time i is going to start counting, russia. modem is probably currently, i mean, guys,

problem just in the past few days, the russian operator reporting that they have increased supplies of energy to europe in union. and uh, similar uh, similar uh, statistics coming out to about the black market. do you believe that the us destroyed the north stream pipeline? you began that whole description about the energy supplies because some people in the global south think the g 7 nations itself sanctioning themselves and visual image. this a that spike in energy prices that it good because of the sanctions. listen, i think uh if you wrote the dropbox uh policy mike is my absolute differently about the kind of sanctions that we're gonna undertaking adults. ah, i have not heard of that brother. i'm using, i do the us blowing up in the old stream pipeline account quite imagine why that do that? well, what is the base of the table? her?

she said the exit economist did of terrifying gr off. i have it here saying that the more people died of 2223 from the rising energy price of 68000 and then cove. 868000 people in your we don't know how many people die because of cold in europe as the cell sanctioning happened. and the north stream was destroyed. those who believe small hash is the exclusive believing that was obviously to sell germany relying on russian energy as opposed to important natural gas from fracking in the united states. i'm not aware of that report, but to be honest with you, it sounds black funds simple to me. um i've no idea what's behind on it. just, i'm sure the packet all sense. okay, well what about uh this uh, the dollarization, which is the big question. uh, people are asking ahead of, uh, the break. so i'm in the, in, in south africa. i have the g 20 in, in india. you,

you've said it doesn't actually matter that much. but on the other hand, does it matter a lot because you can, but you mentioned interest rates, us interest rates for a while. they try and always keep a stable currency in the united states. that can be a virtual peg. but all the trade can be done within g 20 countries outside of any kind of us control is or what? so i've just written something about this topic again in the process of doing it a few times in the past 2 months, because it's become such a populous pain in the run up to the big summit. and i have, i have 2 very strongly contradictory views. the 1st of which is the eventually uh, as we saw in the united kingdom and uh, the world's most to be used currency will need somebody be the of the

world's most important economists. so the idea of the dollar will remain king for that. but i, i think, is probably unlikely. can you give me a time scale, although we had some obama, especially advisor on the other day. so 2060, you're usually right about things when, when is it going to be? i have no idea. i am sufficiently experience enough in finance to say anybody that attempts to do that is place to stop raving mounts. and you know, that was the time when i was supposed to be known as the king of a foreign exchange market and foreign exchange market. as a habit of making complete idiots out people, even thing. and i was talking about pretty quickly, thoughts what i once i am linked to that sounds, i'm so uh, you know, the version, the whole of my, i guess is now was the use of looking at global economic and financial bass.

uh, this is not the 1st on paper talks about the box. it happens every other year. if not with the same incense they always and it's never happened. yeah. um, and if you look at the history of the pounds, sterling and it's, it's still in the nation. well, financial markets, if assisted well beyond when the u. k. economy started has become much smaller as the shadow of global shooting pay. and so at some point the dollar will lose its dominant states. i do think if china and india could have a really strongly agree on things as the 2 biggest countries in the emerging world, and they don't, they said it was more of an opinion. and people inch, and that would probably hasten the end of the dollars dominance. low germany. i'll stop you, the more from the goldman sachs asset management jim and who's going the acronym brick. after this break, the

nations may be able to atrocities in other countries, united states of america is different wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states. the need to be of the automated body of the volts in a very, very easy to sort of city and teach all the look at what the in service of each skid 18 colour revolutions is one among several of means to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them on to the helm of,

of us the western economic interest. people decided i didn't that he did to everybody, democrats, the nutrient portal, acted so now we must say little this a file with them and he can see the final goal of these theme or of allusions to ensure that there are no independent players in the world. anymore the, the welcome back to going undergoing. i'm still with little jim o'neil, the former goldman sachs asset management chapman who's going be accurate in break . we've gone predict when exactly a diesel rise ation is going to manifest itself right across the world. why do you say india has done so? well, i mean, some people would say it has more positive notice ups are in africa put together. and yet you're saying that together. i mean, is it just population at the india or in china,

then making friends something that the way there are people in washington arguably trying to trying to prevent of why, why would that be so important? well, because if you look at how the shape of the world economy is shifted since the brakes uh idea, uh, china is obviously at least until recently been spectacularly successful. and i think you touched on it earlier because of that in purchasing power parity terms, the bridge of j, the thing is now stronger than the other g 7, but in dollars. so i think it's don't even have the p. i is 31.5 percent for breaks and g $730.00 is a much i don't think it is the case in enrollment of dollars because because of what's happened to the russian rouble in the present in rail actually uh, the economy is measured in dollars on

a much weaker and so can size and the for those of the figures you, i mean, the reason what, what i'm going to go on site is because of john and in india. so those 2 become more and more relevant economically. not just inside the books, but also for the will be traveling in india as already i would say confirmed some. okay, to be the 5th largest economy in the world. and it, and it's on its way to challenging germany probably by the end of the decade. and, and that means obviously by definition along with china, what goes on in those 2 places is increasingly relevant to gene pay. now. so the other part of your question uh, i think it is a very important issue about publishing. yeah. global, like an a, sorry, country's economic drugs. the problem is this is driven by 2 simple things along the number of people that are working on. secondly, the photo, tennessee, and yes,

india has an enormous demographic dividend. and one of the reasons that dr. optics projection nice and i still stock is made when i say this, we're in the middle of it still over the periods from say 2010 through so 2035 in the increase in india as working population will be as much as the whole combined russian population and before law, just continental european countries. so that in itself makes it easier for india to provide remotes. uh if they could boost that product service a lot of they could actually grow with those demographics. my other 10 percent. yeah, for best buy lot to kind it's not about what the tools accelerate not only induce groups, right. how to reduce what is still simply a very large number of people living in publish. and i've got to ask you about the

fact that it has all these sorts of countries that uh, i bought of the brakes and that there's so many that seem to want to join rusher supports the arrival of saudi arabia, ends down in iran and so on. what, what do you think they will be discussing when it comes to us treasury bill exposure. i know in the american media and they told people of time about the debt ceiling, which i don't know whether we can just not talk about it because it's a large we um, what kind of a tabloid story somebody'd say, but us treasury bill exposure is all gonna be a more important issue in the global. so do you think well, if it relates to what we charged on a few minutes ago, to be honest. and this in itself would be a sign of, of the persistence of the dollar bill in order for the dollar to end the house to be some alternative. and it is quite interesting as you've just very clearly pointed out, where a lot of the noise about the invitation of the dollar comes from,

which is from some of these aspiring bricks. countries that are the ones that keep buying lots of short types of us bills. and so they themselves, some of the bricks group could play a huge role of to come up with an alternative way. investors wanna homes, that liquidity instead of the us to how camille and what would in the chinese government say, if they want to do one, why they have been progressively buying fewer and fewer treasury bills divesting themselves over it. but they're still in $867000000000.00 of official japan and the top with a $1.00 trillion dollars of us treasury that i how would you advise it? cuz they obviously don't want to destroy their own economies by withdrawing the, by setting off these westat. i mean, i, i do so to policy makers in some of these countries about these issues. and i have actually published on this uh,

quite frequently. and i'd say 2 things. first of all, it would be nice to see the bricks, political leaders meeting, having some real ambition of specific things to achieve other than really just giving symbolic messages and jobs, particularly in terms of accepting new members. and i think they should ask themselves, what is it a new member is going to bring what we call a cheap without them. uh, unless they start to go through about kind of mental process, then you can start to seriously think about why the fixed countries could be the basis of some new kind of not only currency, but some new kind of compasses to, to the us financial system. but if you're not going to do that and have both kind of detailed discussions, then a lot of it is just sort of noise. that story goes away on the financial markets.

never anything like. the 2nd thing i would say, which is most specific to certain punches a china, as many people have often said correctly, has a very, very large domestic saving to i, which is why invest some frequently outside of china. one, my, you know, having the same needs to find things on us. treasury, we've been told us treasury problems, so would be for them. so out simply reduce the domestics and ratio and baffled that have less money. so investor sees an importantly one of the by products, i think would be to encourage nathan foss, devices a personal consumption rising in china and not with benefits. china citizens in almost an offset. anything they should be worrying about about the consequences of not having so many us treasury. yeah. some people saying they can't even have, they can't even satisfy their own. then move on to in the next few years in china

who, who knows. but what about those who say the, there are problems in the european union in the united states that are insurmountable in the face of what's going on in the rest of the world. i don't know why you think um, reportedly mama been seldman and m b 's at here in the united. i remember it's did non sub items cool to reduce will have to increase output and reduce oil prices. do you think that symptomatic of what's happening with bricks, power? i know you just said that they need revolution re decision making rather than appeal. but wasn't that a demonstration of our i mean, you know, i'm, i'm calling 3. i don't what i'm calling for his revolution, which is go focus. i'm trying to have, i think the federal reserve would say it's revolutionary if you,

if they announced in this, i thought they were going to intend, on a massive sell off of you as a treasury bills as well. you know, at some point in the future goes to the reoccurring. and so a central theme of our discussion, at some point in the future, those kind of things will happen if the big country is, uh, becoming a big a big issue. i have a global gene, a particularly individual runs, lot stronger than just something lot is going to happen to be quite kind of the account. i imagine the us would be the stress itself that we do it as a specific guys totally announced them, although they were going to get rid of the us treasury was because i don't think they would believe it would be a particularly motional. uh, influence on the price. uh, if the whole of the country has set it together, obviously won't be there just to find the i know you've been increasingly

interested in the micro microbial resistance and health care and other issues julia sondra is imprisoned in london is talking about war as a massive laundromat of money helping weapons companies um that sort of keynesian militarism. why, how dangerous a war and in terms of health care people are talking about how of the kinds of private health care systems that exist. i know, and i know that you've advocated naturalized systems recently. how, how important is it for democratic structures to get hold of the financial system in western europe and the united states when it comes to health care? when it comes to war? i mean, you're asking me, i have lots of things as part of what i have to have you want to gauge the song about like of the, the resist took it out in the by, on its own

a whole lot going on 6 stuff. i'm throwing them onto microbial resistance. is probably the most interesting thing i've ever done in my life. and this is why we need to somehow find a global system of goodman slight. the g 20 that works because if we don't, we aren't going to end up in the next 20 to 30 years of a world in which we don't have answered by all 6 the work. i'm much of how my generation and your generation is live. this life is not going to be able to consume and be these. all things should distinguish between black and white, male and female. uh, although she will, america. these are things that we have a shared interest in making shows. the 9 implants, no germany, thank you. and that's for the show will be back with a brand new episode on saturday, but until then you can give it to us why?

well, i social media is not sensitive in your country and had to have channel going on to go into your normal. they'll come to watching you and old episodes of going undergrad. so you set the the question of the money. i mean, you love seeing those words isn't like i do live, most schools do. if you look on the initial be 1 o'clock, significantly post on zillow, will it be almost can use the body. what do you do? origin. but the office, the was done, the newest brain only

begins systems to do what i see these the buses. the little cute little dyson says this uh, tutorial on both of the some nations may be able to turn a ball.