[000:00:00;00] the hundreds of thousands of employees have come and gone from the likes of the c i a and the state department. most of them were never relevant, even fewer have remained relevant after leaving government employment. our next guest has remained relevant. that hasn't been without controversy. he is not one to tell the washington swells what they want to hear, but he is earned a place in the mix of voices commenting on contemporary intelligence and foreign policy issues for more than the past 2 decades. i'm john kerry onto welcome to the whistle blowers

the . 2 2 2 2 2 larry johnson is not the typical cia officer. after spending 4 years at c, i a headquarters working in analysis, he transferred to the state department where he became a deputy director in the office of the counterterrorism coordinator. he later left government service to found a successful consulting firm. he's also known for a daily blog and which he offers insights, sometimes biting and controversial insights into current events. and that is what makes larry johnson interesting and keeps him relevant. he's not afraid to criticize some of the most powerful people in washington. he's not afraid to be wrong. johnson has made some bad calls in the past, but he keeps pushing, and he keeps writing, and he keeps himself relevant in the dog eat dog world. that is washington dc. larry johnson, welcome to the show. we're happy to have you. thanks john. to tell us a little bit about your career, you started off at the c,

i a 1st going through operational and paramilitary training and then moving into analysis, you were there for a relatively short period of time. 4 years before moving over to the state department. what exactly did you do with the c i a and why did you make the move to the state department? i was not a happy camper. i. i really did enjoy my time the 1st year in the career. sure. any problems, a lot of fun. we got to see all aspects of the agency and i was fortunate that i got to work on the ascii on task force. this is during the height of, for us support for the scan, revels against the soviets. then i got to work on the central american task force. we've been in transition for backwards. i started by an elliptical career as the 100 animals, which at the time was one of the top 5 board policy issues for the regular administration. which meant that i was regularly writing for the p d. b, the national intelligence daily. well, it was, it was, or i didn't discover that there are a lot of analyst out at c,

i a who go through 3 or 4 years in the career without ever writing for the presidential daily. brief. by contrast, i was sliding probably 2 articles. so we started this uh, that was sort of interesting. my transition to state where it came because of the in terrible management at c. i is the best way to put it. i had a new branch, cheap, married mccarthy. she came out of an africa background. she had 0 experience with central america. i lived in central america, i spoke spanish, and we, i was asked to provide the front office us list the relevant cables every morning. remember, this is, this is back in ancient times. when we dealt with paper. it was non electronic, so i would call through, you know, 500 pages of overnight traffic come up with a select group of messages that i thought the front office should be aware of. and 2nd, for to unbeknownst to me, mary mccarthy was doing the same thing except she did not know what she was looking

at. and so she was sending some of the most outrageous outlay and these pieces for well i didn't later discover because it was only when i went in for my performance appraisal report that they said, well, we got, we didn't promote you. even though i was in the top 10 percent of analysts in terms of current production and as are producing research papers and sort of an excellent briefer. so we didn't promote you because quote, we have questions about the integrity of your analysis. at that point, i was like that cartoon character, roger rabbit, you know, where the eye is completely bogged out of the head. and i discover what it happened is they were getting different traffic from mary mccarthy. and what i was said before, and so i asked about your stuff, but why didn't you call me in the very 1st day that you noticed this? why did you let this go on for over

a month without pointing out that she didn't know what she was doing without giving me a chance to explain why i was doing what i was to. and so at that point and the, the person who was the deputy in the office at the time, carmen medina, you may have run across to of some point because the latest thing was that she was elevated up the chain of command, you know, incompetence rises to the popular uh i was that up. i was curious like like this, this group of incompetence. if this is how they're going to operate, i don't want to be part of it. and then i received an offer. i couldn't refuse and pass that or busby. we've just been named as the corporate coordinator for counterterrorism state department. previously had been the special envoy for the central american peace process. and i have regularly briefed him. and so he liked me. he understood that i was confident. and so he asked me to come work for him and state. uh, the only way i could do that was to move as a schedule the contractor. but uh frankly,

i was so furious with what the agency had done. and mind you, by the, by last 6 months at the c, i a, i received 2 exceptional performance on words. i mean that it shows you just how completely disconnected from reality. they are. on the one hand, they say i'm an exceptional performer. and then on the other hand, they got questions about the integrity of my analysis, and they don't have the courage or the integrity the comment come from me about it and say, why are we, why are you giving us different informations and mary mccarthy. and i can tell them very simply because steve edgar and does not know what she's doing. when you got the state department, you were immediately put into important work in counter terrorism. i know that you were part of a, of a very serious terrorism investigation. i believe that was the pan m one o 3 attack that must have been rewarding work, but you chose to leave what led to that decision. the reason i ask is that you almost immediately became

a critic of us counterterrorism policy. can you explain why? when i write the state my, my duties were basically, i was the deputy director in charge of the anti terrorism assistance training program. i was in charge of the policies on transportation security, both aviation and maritime and then providing support for the military special operations. and my very 1st, within 3 weeks of arriving, we deployed at the time what was considered a top secret team, the emergency support team to el salvador because salvatore and realize that quote, taking members of delta force hostage. now what actually happened was the role as it storm this hotel, not realizing there was a delta force element inside that hotel. and the delta guys are on the teeth and, and i was the salvador grill has realized what they were up against. they decided what's better not to attack that back door. nonetheless, we deployed this of this interagency team that consisted of f, b i c,

i a state department communicators and state department officials to all salvador along with the j soc as well deployed. it's, it's contingent and i ended up writing the, the 1st what was called the logistics cable, which ironically ends up. and it was continuing to be used for that particular mission. 20 years later. um, so i was there for 4 years and 1993 my my contract that scheduled the contractor was coming due and the decision of the incoming clinton administration was we can downsize on, on the terrorism front. and so my job went away and i became, at that point, the contractor almost immediately after leaving government. larry, you begin appearing as a pundit on television shows a new shows around the united states in which you gave commentary. you were prescient in 1998 when you warned americans about osama bin lot and you said that

been logged in, quote, was consumed by hatred and craziness. if not confronted, he would continue to terrorize americans around the world. he has no compunction about killing women and children. he's a complete gala terry and his murderous attitude on quote. but you took some heat in 2001 when you published a piece in the new york times in which you argue that terrorism was not the biggest challenge that the us faced. and that terrorism should not be portrayed that way. why the change in your analysis? well, it's one thing to recognize that there is, are terrorist threats out there? and there are particular individuals or groups that can carry out those attacks. but then you've got to put it in perspective. it is not an excess dental trap. by any measure, in fact, terrorism basically by definition, is the actions of individuals who are weak, who do not have the ability to confront, on a military base as

a nation. they have to, you know, be more circumspect. and frankly, it's more and taking just a part of what i was reacting to and seen at the time is that terrorism was being trumpeted in a way to get it replaced, replaced the soviet threat economy trip. you know, previously we had justified massive defense spending because we had to stop the spread of international communism. don't you know? well, once russia, what sort of the soviet union went away and rushed here to emerge much weaker. all of a sudden that rationale no longer held up. and you had all these, the fed, the defense contractors clamoring for a. how are we going to get, and where are we gonna get paid at law? behold, terrorism that gets it kept on giving the, the advance of $911.00. you're led to just complete 180 degree. turn in what the

united states that i know right after the bush administration came at the end of january, 2001. richard clark had prepared a very detailed memo, laid out what needed to be done to deal with the threat that was close by al qaeda . and it was a real threat. it was not manufactured. it was, it was genuine, and it was significant and that they were a hed international organized efforts. but that was rejected. it was ignored. they're supposed to be an inter agency meeting, chaired up the national security council on combating terrorism that ceased. and the bush administration was there voting its efforts at the time to promote, in building a missile defense system to and noted was in that summer i believe that no george

w bush exit. yeah. and type ballistic missile tree. and that was important because the united states was planning at the time to try to develop and tie ballistic missile systems that would, would frankly post a threat to russia. but then came 911. i know there are lot of conspiracy center that's out there that it says that the united states is quite that all. but if that's not the case of this was, this is a pure example of the combination of bureaucratic incompetence, arrogance hubris. and then the bush administration immediately pivoted and made combating terrorism, the number one priority, and then anything that was done to come by, anybody who was supporting terrorism in any way, but it became target. and it's just, you know, united states policy at that point. what completely off the rails. so i would note that in november of 2000 november 7th, i believe was

a precise date. milton bearing the former chief, the station and the pack and stand up round the ask in war this latter years. and i will put, put together an op yet and that off with a note of that whoever was the next president, because it was still a dispute where there was going to be al gore or george w bush that they needed to deal with 2 specific threats it mike mia who had been behind the bombings of the marine barracks in the us embassies and be rude in the mid eighties. and also, i'm a big lot. no, i challenge anybody to go back to november of 2000 and find anybody else that was say, hey, you need to be prepared to deal with with some of that lot. so when i wrote that off, we had in the summer of 2001 i was so no, he doesn't believe that terrorism says, right. no, i believe, i don't believe terrorism is the greatest a wheat space. it is, it is, has to be put into context is the threat it needs to be dealt with. but we don't

need to exaggerate it. and it really became sort of a cultural to be public with and used to just apply a lot of very and my view unsavory. and then the legal policies you have always been outspoken in your opposition to the manipulation of intelligence and intelligence analysis for political purposes. this tailoring of intelligence was especially agreed. yes. during the george w bush administration. and then vice president dick cheney and his senior staff were famous for cherry picking intelligence reports that fit their personal ideologies that led you to be an outspoken critic of the iraq war and of the sea ice response to the rock for tell us about that. i, members, i was, i was sitting at the nixon center with patrick lang and joe wilson among others charles, crowd timer. so it was quite a mix of personalities. and this was in january of

2003. and at the time that was the 1st time i met joe wilson, i didn't realize joe was married to my former c, i, a classmate, valerie plame. and so, and then no time to, to go, hey, my wife was a secret agent for, you know, none of that never came up. but we're all sort of puzzling about for the us government must really have some top secret intelligence they're not revealing because none of this makes sense about iraq. and then is it a folded? i had a conversation with one of our mutual friends, fulton, and fulton, that the time was on the national intelligence council. and he, he passed on me. he says there, hey, there is no evidence to this. and so at that point i began speaking out and i'm, i was recorded on national public radio with michelle norris, i believe in may criticizing,

said that there was no justification for this page. um i work with a interesting is previous 6 months prior to that in november of, of 2002 i appeared on the handle, the cold show at that time i was uh, fox news and so i was getting paid, you know, 1000 bucks a week which is pretty sweet deal. and i was asked if the route about the united states going into or walk. and i said, united states was not in a position to buy a 2 front war and that we should not invade iraq. well, i was then subsequently not asked to come back on any of the shows, even though they continued to pay me. and i found out later that roger ailes specifically set down words that i was not to be put back on air. because basically what i was saying that he thought was of course, so that's where i, i learned that speaking out can have some consequences, financial and otherwise,

but the, you know, it wouldn't change. we're speaking with former c, i a and state department officer, larry johnson. stay with us. we'll take a short break and come right back. the if you creams long anticipated calendar offensive hasn't deidre gunn, but it's not off to a good start. this does not bode well for the cube regime, and more importantly, it is a testament to the effectiveness of nato. ukraine is failing, and so it was made on the toner, it'll see skit they should, they will see skin out of the go with the that you sent those last i was, i'm over here on is zacko going that they're not showing in of each uh, throughout the united short, full state taxation, the full section of the show that i, she's the instructional and have about john long would love to go. just talk

a little issue. i don't see those sheets of the go. there's a little c, a years ago, sales custom coast like friends here was the months me, i'm a photo skin. she was a but all you know and about the show on 2nd most to go to court order. sure. thing . it's been collab most i usually it comes to shock given that you to go to your open when you get to mind porsha was to play catch the thought. yes. cool kind. yeah. and the console. you put the device, you're saves, the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings except we're so shorter is that conflict with the 1st law show alignment of the patient. we should be very careful about our personal intelligence. the point obviously, is to create a trust rather than fit the various job. i mean with artificial intelligence,

we have so many with the in the a robot most protects this phone existence was alexis the welcome back to the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry. aku we're speaking with former c. i a and state department officer, larry johnson. larry, thanks again. for being with us, larry, i think you surprised a lot of people with your criticism of the obama administration that many saw be as harsh as your criticism of the bush administration. brock obama was certainly no friends to whistle blowers and he surrounded himself with a lot of bad people from the c i a. is that what your objection was to obama, or was it something deeper the well,

the early days i was just just looking at his prior associations with, you know, convicted aerosmith bill errors, the people associated with the weather underground. but i mean, he was, he was deliberately hiding his pass and it was, you know, the, the image that he portrayed and presented to the american public was not consistent with his background. i mean, you know, for example, when i pointed out that he was adopted by an indignation man. so i'm also terrell. and actually i've tried to gain access to those adoption records in indonesia and i had a friend of mine to retire a f. b. i hosted rescue team guy who was actually over in indonesia during training at the time. and he went in to try to, you know, you go with some of his buddies there and they tried to access that material which had already done all the cleaned out. clean up i who john brennan, so brand new, they've been active out, working to help uh,

burnish uh brock obama's image. but you know, a bomb a like, like bush, they're both draughts and it actually in the, in some aspects. i think obama was more for the next years, particularly when you looked at what was done in the overthrow of governments in libya. you attempted over throw at the government of washer assorted syria. i know that my don, the rice of the edge of the, the crew and, and ukraine, which took out a duly elected president, may have been corrupt that he was still duly elected. all the obama was involved with the overthrow of more countries or attempted over throw board governments in george w bush. just can't believe that to another of the myriad problems that many former ca officers have is with something called the publications review board. everybody

who has ever worked for the c, i a even if you work there for 15 minutes, must submit every thing that he or she writes to the publications review board for clarence. the problem with the p r b is that they're highly politicized. if you write something that's pro c, i a, you get it cleared quickly. if you're critical of the c i a, you can be bogged down in the process for years. i've certainly tangled with them. what is been your experience getting your writing cleared with the c i a have they tried to silence? you know, i've had very little it's the only things that we presented apparently, and i did present that off for clarence. that was, it was really fascinating is j officers can go on any kind of television or radio and they're not required to get that pre clear. or is there any way to pre clear that kind of thing? so in other words, what you may have written in the book, you could just go in on television and set it and they couldn't have done anything

about that. and then once that's out there in the transcript recorded, then you go, you know, then you're, you're free of the other thing it's been interesting is that not doing anything to go after people writing blogs and such and opinion piece. so it's, it's just, it's a very inconsistent policy. it's really, it has not caught up with technology. it's something that's rooted back when we were dealing with typewriters. and the only a form of communication were in books and magazines, and hard copy newspapers, the whole electronic age. and so i think i really created some problems for them to leery your detractors say that you're a bomb thrower that you'd like to stir the pot. and you've been criticized in the past for saying that. michelle obama used a racial epithet against white people that john kerry committed a war crime in vietnam and that the british g. c h q had tapped donald trump's

phone. how do you respond to that criticism? oh, well, there are 3 different things going on there. the, the, the why do you take that was given to me initially by said limit to hillary's bestbuy and said, said reached out to me and said, hey, i've got this information, can you, can you check on the customer? oh, okay. so i started asking around, i checked with 3 different people, one of them, a very respected journalist in washington, dc. ad all confirmed. yeah, we've heard that too. yeah, it's all i can help us out of my blog. well, the thing with the bar, and in fact the, the, the obama campaign put out a, a response telling me that no, michelle had said, why did he not wife. and i thought, well, that's odd. why would you come out and say, you know, give that explanation if there was not such a take. but then with the start your child care,

i went back and pressed the lumen implies that subordinate, this come from who's your source. and he directed me to david brock, media matters. so what it was, you know, i got completely used and i apologize in writing for having been used by the clinton campaign in that regard to spread that kind of just ration. the whole thing about john kerry that was simply, i was competing something that popped up on the, on the web, posted on my blog. and it lasted for about 24 hours and i took it down to that whole john kerry thing is a complete, a red herring. the british spine on donald trump. absolutely. they did. it was, it was, is you know, the work around. see, i do not spy on the american citizens, but there's nothing there says brothers can spy on american citizens because they do. and the close relationship between the g c, h q. and then it say,

where the guy actually got personnel the side by side physically and it's easy to pass information back and forth. oh, i know that was correct. i just didn't realize how extensive involvement of both the f, b i the c a it was at the time when something subsequently learned that this was a best, vast intelligence operation directed against donald trump. in fact, i have one of our former colleagues who was, he was an s i s level still in touch with folks back at the agency. he told me that one of his friends came and told him that he'd been approached by brenda, about joining what they called the trunk task force. and this was the late summer of 2015. so you know that that's the kind of activity that is completely illegal. and i'd like to thank our guests, larry johnson, for taking the time to speak with us. and thanks to our viewers for joining us

again today. i'd like to leave you with the words of american author and poet, audrey lord, who said, quote, i have come to believe over and over again. that what is most important to me must be spoken, made verbal and shared, even at the risk of having it bruised or mis understood, unquote. i'm john to reaku, thanks for joining us on another episode of the whistle blowers until next time. 2 2 the russian states never as tight as i'm one of the most on screen and the best most all sense of the

speed. what else holes? question about this? even though we will ben in the european union, the kremlin, the machine, the state on russia to day and split ortiz food, even our video agency, roughly all the band on youtube tv services to the question, did you say even closer to the acceptance? and i'm here to plan with you whatever you do. do not watch my new show. seriously . why watch something that's so different. whitelisted opinions that he won't get anywhere else. welcome, please. do you have the state department to see i a weapons, bankers,

multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. choose your facts for you. go ahead. change and whatever you do. don't want my show stay main street because i'm probably going to make you uncomfortable. my show is called direction, but again, you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way and say who is the aggressor today? i'm authorizing additional strong sanctions. today russia was the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. a number that's constantly growing, but i think the pitch of the senior assist click on the most, the more in the will shift for banning all in portion of russian oil and gas in energy. suffering the price for another country of those lower. but the rest of the fed service involved the little jo bites in imposing

these sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. so there's a boomerang, the of the top headlines right now and i'll ask you to national as russians defense ministry says ukrainian stop latasha group blew up a key ammonia pipeline is a how to code region. i think they're all casualties among the civilian population . a senior us official says the f b, i is been trying to silence an ongoing investigation into a potential bribery scheme involving the us president and craig also our weapons on a dash of sanctions. iran officially joins the hypersonic. miss all club unveiling