the every spring and summer, the melting optics move reveals abandoned machinery, millions of rusty barrels, and the detritus left by human expansion into this most inaccessible of territories . yes, i used to move short a customer and both of us. some of the doors at the post to be done as an issue. calling to us from clean optic travels the highest island home to the biggest opponent station on the front of joseph land occupied a go. did they asked me for it? i was my was or more you have to do should. so it means if you have, when you feel when we see lots of money and i'm familiar with this, i'm gonna stay on the lowest. i've left so much you feel like a mess almost here. let me see mean membership when you to i've got the, i'm see, i don't know, boys of the middle. it please to join me at that of the optic pioneers main objective was to explore and comcast these harsh lands. they had no time to think about the waste management now and,

and then i can see could remain for centuries. that's my of my choice of so it's pretty at the cost your system is the multiple and you have to put the team could have to deal with the issue the . 2 2 2 depending on is a massive bureaucratic mess with hundreds of thousands of employees and a budget of hundreds of billions of dollars lead by political appointees hovering over career civil servants. it can be a governmental nightmare. laws are meant to keep the place running as honestly and as efficiently as possible. what then happens when a political appointee flowed? so those laws, who does the law protect? i'm john kerry. aku, welcome to the whistle blowers the

today we're going to tell you the story of a pentagon whistleblower. she's not a household name. academics probably will not base their dissertations on her case . she hasn't been the subject of funding expos in the media, but she is a clear example of a person doing the right thing, bringing to light evidence of waste, fraud abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. jacky garrick grew up like many americans who came from immigrant families intensely patriotic and wanting to give something back to the country that had given them so much in the 1980s. she did an internship at the veterans administration medical center in new york and developed an interest in post traumatic stress disorder, or p t. s. d. in veterans who had returned from service in vietnam. in 1992, she joined the army as a captain and a social worker. following the adage, if you want to work with veterans b one. after leaving the military, she worked as the deputy director of health care at the american legion,

and then went onto a position on the veterans disability benefits commission in the department of veterans affairs. and after a few years on capitol hill, the obama administration asked her to organize the defense suicide prevention office, which over so disability policies impacting wounded warriors, mental health care, accessibility, suicide prevention and diversity and inclusion. jackie survived a period of greek turmoil at depending on serving under 10 under secretaries and 12 supervisors in only 8 years. in 2014 jackie began working for a politically appointed supervisor, who seemed to be hostile to her after she made legally protected disclosures regarding possible conflicts of interest and possible contract fraud. she was moved to another chain of command and soon after found that her performance ratings were being lowered and job openings were being close to her. she filed whistleblower complaints with both the as of the special counsel and with the defense

department's office of inspector general. for purely bureaucratic reasons, jackie never received any satisfaction from her whistle blowing, and indeed, in the end, she lost her job and was deemed in eligible for federal retirement. it was only after a freedom of information act request and an appeal beyond the u. s. office of personnel management that she was finally able to retire. and once she did, she created the group whistle blowers of america, where she provides peer support for other whistle blowers who have suffered retaliation after having identified harm to individuals or to the public. jackie garrick, welcome to the show. we're very happy to have you. thank you. it's a honor and a pleasure to be here with you to i'll thank you the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning of your story, jackie, you're one of those unusual people who brought a great deal of experience when you begin working at the pentagon. you had already had experience at the department of veterans affairs, for example,

with the american legion, which is a private organization. and also in congress. you were then asked by the obama administration to go to the pentagon. what were you 1st asked to do there? and why was there such turmoil when you arrived? well, so the trim why it wasn't when i arrived, it was after i made my disclosures, i was very honored and excited to join the obama administration. i actually stayed for the entire 8 years. but when i went over initially to work on wounded warrior issues and then got moved around and ended up working on the suicide prevention office and then got moved again and again and again and just some extra, you know, that's the life of the political point. a but it was at the defend suicide prevention office that i made my disclosures and, and that's when things really went sideways for me. mm hm. so you are at the pen

and gone and you finally feel comfortable. tell us what it was that you saw that made you uncomfortable for that 1st time. what was the nature of your initial whistle blowing? yeah, so, you know, it doesn't take long to be at the pentagon and realize how complex and complicated things can be over there. in d, m, i was learning a lot about contracts and programs, and i had known a lot about of how to manage and how budget's operated because of my experience is on the health, the difference between an authorization and appropriation. all of these nuances become important when you're working in these environments. and so when i was working in the suicide prevention office, and we had set that up after a um, a congressionally charter task force had said that the one thing the department of

defense was lacking was the suicide prevention office. as you mentioned, that a background in mental health by myself, a former army officer. so i got asked to help set up this office and um with a lot of back and forth and what it should look like and how it should run. we were up and running and we were doing some really good things. we had a number of contracts in place and we were following federal acquisition regulations before and, and how we set up those contracts from the deities. there's no shortage of ethics training and compliance training. i'm. there's a lot of this training and i, i felt like i understood how these programs should run. so it was when another political appointee. she wasn't my direct supervisor, but she was at a lateral position above me. and she asked me about moving contract money that we

had that one company to a contract with another company. we didn't have that company on contract at the d o . d. so it would've not having to move money over to the v a. and because she had been a vice president there because her husband was a sub contractor to the prime. i thought, well, you shouldn't be reducing yourself, you shouldn't even be talking about this company. right. and i thought i and i said i was seeing a friend. no, i was naive about all of this so much. i don't know, you, you shouldn't even say those things. and as the time went on and i was getting emails and, and this feeling that i was being influenced, i went to another political appointee who was about both of us. and i made a disclosure to him about what was going on and she was kind of in tune that there was a lot of back and forth and all these emails. and so i made that disclosure,

and it was really at that point in time that i thought i did my job, i did what i was supposed to. i was done and i thought it would all and, and then of course it didn't and, and the retaliation began a little bit different. um, uh, eventually the person i had made my disclosures about ends up sharing and executive re cannel. she's the only one who doesn't rate me at, at an above a the acceptable standard look at it that way. and so i eventually get moved out of the job as the defense suicide prevention office director. and that's when i go to a jar and i, i say to her, how is this all possible? what's going on? i don't understand,

you know by then i'm like more shocked and confused. and of course all of this other stuff was unbeknownst to me at the time and it was when i tell her the story about all of this. and she had told me, well one person didn't rate you as high as the others. and i said, well let me guess and she told me i cannot confirm or deny, but you're a whistle blower and you should file a p p, p. and i didn't even know that p p p at the time stood for prohibit in personnel practice. and so it was add her coaching that i went to v o i g, b o s c the i'm this guy that just went to everybody because i wasn't really sure at the time what to do and i was, i was just kind of learning the ropes, there was no one to talk to know when to ask questions i, i felt very alone and trying to figure this out. i'm sure i made mistakes early on

. there were lessons to be learned. but i do remember, i know i g telling may you know, be in for a penny, be in for a pound is sent to go to o. s. a. so i, you know, i kind of followed the advice of these people in authority that i thought were helpful. are there to help me, right. and that wasn't always the best in topics right. well, in, in government we're all taught to go through the chain of command when we see evidence of waste, fraud abuse or illegality. you, you went through your chain of command and then you ended up going to the, to the inspector general and to the office of the general counsel, you later said that that was a mistake. can you explain that to us? the source? so i think the mistakes that i'm, that i made was one, there was no guidance in any of this process. you really are hunting, impacting with your, your, with a blindfold on trying to figure out what's the right way to manage these things.

you know, i'm a social worker by background, not an attorney. i didn't know if i needed to even hire an attorney at that point. so you're relying on reading websites, looking at, after looking at like, what do they say? evidence is trying to figure this all out for yourself and the mistake i made earlier on was not having me o i g investigate the case at the time. i've been to the d o d o i j probably 3 times asking for help. and 3 times they didn't even they didn't open a case or they referred me to somebody else. so the day of g o i g, at the time, never investigated these things that i complained about. they sent me the o. s a. and it was that our see where, you know, they, they tell you where attorneys were helping you were representing you and it isn't until you get through some of that process that you realize. no,

these are government attorneys, they're not really your attorneys representing you. that's right. which is, which is why so many whistle blowers end up needing an attorney even at the o. s. c process. i think that's, that was an important nuance that in the beginning i didn't understand. so i eventually hired an attorney to help me get through some of the a c process where i got my prima facia recognition as a what's the lower and then this individual right to appeal letter to take my case to the m s p b. so this, there's nothing simple about any of this, and it's definitely you learn lessons along the way. and it was one of the reasons that i set up with the lawyers of america because it made me realize number should be alone and us. and i was starting to a more public about looking for west of lower information. and i went online,

i was on social media, connected with somebody else who was at another federal agency. and she told me that she was in law enforcement, had a gun and was contemplating suicide. and for me, investors triggered everything i knew about combat trauma about suicide prevention . that we needed to do more and be more for each other because no one is, is looking out for the whistleblower. so in any of these kinds of cases, we are speaking with us defense department whistleblower, jackie garrick, about her experience at the pentagon during the obama administration. we're going to ask her and you to stay with us as we take a short commercial break. we'll be right back. 2 2 2 2 2 the,

the rolling of the us over to the board. you know, great union, dougherty, a surname? yeah, i did. she shipped a dr. meano's report. the control room for 2 of us. so we fixed you get the system really being you have enough, the lots and lots of products and let's see. mean yeah, we did the cloud. so it's actually, it's strange uh, fox news, but i'll let you drive both on the on their own crazy. if that's where you store lot of the my software, but just story. you still know. sadly, if she ever always gets us, what are we shipping that just figured for a lift or slip that came over to them. i need deals says that you print school so that i can use a when they finished that for couple years,

you're not to buy these folks clicked the button. so i'm saying yes, i see the best way to take a picture of the day. so if it's the, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy foundation, let it be an arms race is on all sides. very dramatic. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very unclear to get a time time to sit down and talk the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with pentagon, with the blower, jackie garrick, about her experiences in the department of defense. jackie, thanks again for being with us. thank you for having me here,

jackie. i would love to know the results of your whistle blowing. it's easy to get lost and the bureaucracy of whistle blowing and the obstacles that we face when making our revelations. the important thing is that you made a complaint about waste fraud abuse or illegality. what ended up happening with it were changes made. was it finally corrected? um the so it took 5 years um for my case to run the wickets. and um, in 2020, after getting the foyer, not what we got on discovery, but what i got on for you, i'm by then i was pro say i was representing myself. and i was able to read to the judge these emails and things that i had gotten on via that i hadn't gotten on discovery. and that from me was cathartic. just in of itself was to read those things to him and,

and then to when my case in 2020 was probably the most surprised person in all of this with me because it was that, that feeling that he truly believed to me that in his decision he saw that the and the most and the retaliation were really there. and he avoided me. my retirement benefits that i had applied for so that that was great to you owed me 3 years or the government of the 3 years of back pay. and so i took that money and i re invested it into building whistle blowers of america. so on that part it has been great. but after i was removed from the defense suicide prevention office, i, i went back and i said, well, where's the accountability for what happened to the program? and if you go on the website, i don't know if it's still up there. i've been checked in a while. but the d h r a,

the defense human resource activity overseas, the budget for the suicide prevention office. and somewhere between 20162017, that office is reduced by $20000000.00. so it goes from having a rough estimate in here, a budget of about 25000000 that i was executing on to now about 5000000. and then in subsequent years, the defense department says, oh, we have increase the budget because it went from like 5000000 to 8000000 to 9000000 to 8000000. and the budget has sort of flux around there. but since i was removed, it's also gone through a series of directors. the one that was there after me was re, was moved over to the b a and then resign from that room. at the, the following. there was a couple of in interim directors. the last director that was there left and i

don't know if there's now another permanent, so there's been at least 4 or 5 directors over that office with a budget that has gone down and you know, the suicide numbers among the active duty guard and reserve. i think speak for themselves the only time we ever saw a reduction in suicide was when we were looking at the 2014 and we were specifically targeting programs towards the guard and reserves. we saw decrease a little a little 18 downward trends that we were hopeful that we would see again in 2015. but of course it was in february of 2015 that i was removed and from what you could from what is available public documents. it looks like the programs and the contracts were then canceled in 2015 by that. by that summer, by august, most of my work that i had in south did was,

was canceled. and the programs and the things were going into a new direction. there was another contract after that called be there and i've had several whistle blowers call me about that program. basically being a sam that it didn't take the numbers. it's, it was i supposed to take the calls, the, the people who i've talked to said, you know, they were given embroidered, starts with their names on it. but then they weren't allowed to go out into the public and do any outreach or spread awareness about the program. so i think there's been other concerns. i know that the last time i saw a hearing and there was testimony about the d. o. d sort of shrugging his shoulders and not seeming to know why the numbers were going up and um, and that was the last permanent director. of course, that has since gone,

but it's been, it's been those frustrating moments for me to see the d. o. d, call suicide, the new normal. and there are ways and trends and in the initiatives that you can take that could reduce suicide that are evidence based. some of the peer support stuff we were doing. there are ways to make suicide prevention more effective than i feel like the d o. d has done in recent years and you know, that makes me personally sad because it adds to what i feel like is, is been my frustration overall. this cause i feel like we were in a good place and, and i hate to see where we are now, with the suicide numbers at the, at the d o d and at the v. a. neither of them have been outstanding in terms of

what they've been able to prevent and you're under real time constraints when you blew the whistle because you were a political appointee. that meant that your job literally ended at the moment that the obama administration left office, even if you had to keep up the fight for your retirement benefits into the trump administration. did that time constraint help or hurt your ability to blow the whistle? and so i had really hope that the office suspension council would have been more helpful in allowing me to stay on in a, in a like a career or non career position with, uh, the, and there are different authorities. they could have used to do that. well, my case continued, i honestly got it from 2015 to 2017 that we wouldn't, we wouldn't be dragging this on. and the, the one issue that gave me a thorough day to continue my case was because what the d o d had done was they

converted the position from a political to a career position, which then gave me with some lower rice because i had applied and was trying to remain in the position as a career position. so my political appointee status really didn't matter for the case. but my employment ended when the obama administration ended and nobody after that was willing, of course, to be helpful to help me move this case or continue this case as a federal employee. me, you went on to found the organization whistle blowers of america, as you've said, to provide peer support to whistle blowers in need of it. honestly, as i said a moment ago, i can't think of anything that whistle blowers need more except maybe legal representation. tell us about founding the group pulling together the resources and the work that you've done, what, what kinds of whistle blowers have reached out for help i. and so every time it was,

the bar has reached out for help from, you know, when i started this, i really, honestly didn't know what i was getting myself into. i thought we needed to have these kinds of conversations amongst ourselves so we can help each other, solve problems, make decisions, and be resilient. i quickly learned that it's, it's a surprise that you need an attorney for federal employees that you need to know how to hire an attorney, that you wouldn't need to know how to work with the media. i mean, thank goodness i had had some media training while i was asked kind of gone. so it's explaining simple things like what, what does it mean to be on background? what is off the record? how do you know what kind of an attorney, i mean i have people say yeah, i talk to an attorney, i'm like okay, how versed is your attorney? and what's the blower laws and the like. i don't know, he's the guy who handled my divorce and then it just makes me wonder cringe and 6

my have. so the idea that we need each other, we need to help each other understand these things. i think it's important and then to be able to talk about, you know, how is your family handling this? how are you? how are you managing this? who's helping you, how? who's supporting you? how are you developing your evidence? do you know what a level of evidence means? um, you know, i get people who will tell me what have evidence and then they'll send me emails that they wrote. i'm like, no, that's not really evidence. that's your opinion. and it could be good to help build your case, but that's not what this means. and so i'm constantly trying to help people understand the nature of their case. how to work with the media if need be, how to work with congress if need be. how to work with investigators, the i, j the g a o. like who can you go to for how and who else can we build

a team to help you care about this? and what's the blowing is a tough subject. um, you know, we're not, we don't have sick children and keep puppies that are part of our what we do when, when we have people who are blowing, what's the cause? i've worked with all kinds of whistle blowers. but when we talk about the with the blower, not necessarily the case. it's very hard to get the right resources to support this mission. like i said, i've invested a lot of my own money. right? um, we definitely you can use more support w w w whistleblowers of america dot org has a donate button on it. so anybody who wants to help this causes invited to join us . but otherwise, i, you know, this is, this is a complex set of issues and very, very difficult to get people to understand the true nature of these cases. it is indeed, well, i would like to think our guest, jackie garrick for joining us today. and for sharing her experience,

and i'd like to think our viewers for being with us. martin luther king once said that lives most persistent question was, what are you doing for others? the big galle poet robin from us have already answered when he said i slept and dreamt that life was joy i awoke and saw that life was service. i acted and behold, service was joy. thanks again for joining us. you've been watching the whistle blowers, i'm john kerry echo until next time. 2 2 2 2 2 the, [000:00:00;00] the,

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a little bit ago. there's a little c, a years ago. the sales custom brands here was the monthly. i'm a bonus kid, she was a but all you know and about the show on circuit most to go to court waterfront. it's been go out. and so usually it comes to shop, given that you to go to your open when you get to mind for sure, what's the pipe crutches at the school academy and the concept you provided to us saves the temporary shelters for people. that fucked you waited from the mazda of loving and that person's on legion. i can come on really infinity and shelly beeping, at least one person that advance german leverage. i'm sure said to be a most of the dozens of the western supplied vehicles destroyed by russians. military of this star to view cringed, nothing unanticipated. carter offensive, also