[000:00:00;00] the the . 2 2 depending on is a massive bureaucratic mess with hundreds of thousands of employees and a budget of hundreds of billions of dollars lead by political appointees hovering over career civil servants. it can be

a governmental nightmare. laws are meant to keep the police running as honestly and as efficiently as possible. what then happens when a political appointee flowed? so those laws. who does the law protect? i'm john kerry. aku welcome to the whistle blowers the today. we're going to tell you the story of a pentagon whistleblower. she's not a household name. academics probably will not base their dissertations on her case . she hasn't been the subject of funding, exposing the media, but she is a clear example of a person doing the right thing, bringing to light evidence of waste, fraud abuse, illegality, or threats to the public health or public safety. jackie garrick grew up like many americans who came from immigrant families intensely patriotic and wanting to give something back to the country that they've given them so much. in the 1980s. she did an internship at the veterans administration medical center in new york and

developed an interest in post traumatic stress disorder, or p t. s. d. in veterans who had returned from service in vietnam. in 1992, she joined the army as a captain and a social worker. following the adage, if you want to work with veterans b one. after leaving the military, she worked as the deputy director of health care at the american legion, and then went onto a position on the veterans disability benefits commission in the department of veterans affairs. and after a few years on capitol hill, the obama ministration asked her to organize the defense, suicide prevention office, which oversight, disability policies impacting wounded warriors, mental health care accessibility, suicide prevention and diversity and inclusion. jackie survived a period of greek turmoil at the pentagon, serving under 10 under secretaries and 12 supervisors in only 8 years. in 2014 jackie began working for a politically appointed supervisor,

who seemed to be hostile to her after she made legally protected disclosures regarding possible conflicts of interest and possible contract fraud. she was moved to another chain of command and soon after found that her performance ratings were being lowered and job openings were being close to her. she filed whistleblower complaints with both the office of the special counsel and with the defense department's office of inspector general. for purely bureaucratic reasons, jackie never received any satisfaction from her whistle blowing, and indeed, in the end, she lost her job and was deemed in eligible for federal retirement. it was only after a freedom of information act request and an appeal beyond the u. s. office of personnel management that she was finally able to retire. and once she did, she created the group whistle blowers of america, where she provides peer support for other whistle blowers who have suffered retaliation after having identified harm to individuals or to the public. jackie

garrick, welcome to the show. we're very happy to have you. thank you. it's a honor and a pleasure to be here with you to know. thank you the pleasures ours. let's start at the beginning of your story, jackie, you are one of those unusual people who brought a great deal of experience when you begin working at the pentagon. you had already had experience at the department of veterans affairs, for example, with the american legion, which is a private organization. and also in congress. you were then asked by the obama administration to go to the pentagon. what were you 1st asked to do there? and why was there such turmoil when you arrived? well, so the termite wasn't when i arrived. it was after i made my disclosures. i was very honored and excited to join the obama administration. i actually stayed for the entire 8 years. but when i went over initially to work on wounded warrior issues and then got moved around and ended up working on the suicide prevention

office and then got moved again and again and again. and to some extent, you know, that's the life of the political appointee. but it was at the defense suicide prevention office that i made my disclosures and, and that's when things really went sideways for me. mm hm. so you are at the pen and gone and you finally feel comfortable. tell us what it was that you saw that made you uncomfortable for that 1st time. what was the nature of your initial whistle blowing? yeah, so, you know, it doesn't take long to be at the pentagon and realize how complex and complicated things can be over there. in d, m, i was learning a lot about contracts and programs, and i had known a lot about how to manage and how budget's operated because of my experience is on the health,

the difference between an authorization and appropriation. all of these nuances become important when you're working in these environments. and so when i was working in the suicide prevention office, and we had set that up after a um, a congressionally charter task force had said that the one thing the department of defense was lacking was the suicide prevention office. as you mentioned, the background in mental health by myself, a former army officer. so i got a house to help set up this office and um, with a lot of back and forth and what it should look like and how it should run. we were up and running and we were doing some really good things. we have a number of contracts in place and we were following federal acquisition regulations before and, and how we set up those contracts from the deities. there's no shortage of ethics training and compliance training. i'm. there's a lot of this training and i,

i felt like i understood how these programs should run. so it was when another political appointee. she wasn't my direct supervisor, but she was at a lateral position above me. and she asked me about moving contract money that we had that one company to a contract with another company. we didn't how that company on contract at the d o . d. so it would've not having to move money over to the v a. and because she had been a vice president there because her husband was a sub contractor to the prime. i thought, well, you shouldn't be reducing yourself, you shouldn't even be talking about this company. right. and i thought i and i said i was seeing a friend. no, i was naive about all of this so much. i don't know, you, you shouldn't even say those things. and as the time went on and i was getting

emails and, and this feeling that i was being influenced, i went to another political appointee who was about both of us. and i made a disclosure to him about what was going on and she was kind of in tune that there was a lot of back and forth and all these emails. and so i made that disclosure, and it was really at that point in time that i thought service supposed to, i was done and i thought it would all and, and then of course it didn't and, and the retaliation began a little bit different. um uh, eventually the person i had made my disclosures about ends up sharing and executive re cannel. she's the only one who doesn't rate me at at and above

a the acceptable standard look at it that way. and so i eventually on suicide prevention office director, and that's when i go to a jar and i, i say to her, how is this all possible? what's going on? i don't understand, you know by then i'm like more shocked and confused. and of course all of this other stuff was unbeknownst to me at the time and it was when i tell her the story about all of this didn't rate you as high as the others. and i said, well, let me guess. and she told me i cannot confirm or deny, but you're a whistleblower and you should file a p p p and i didn't even know the p. p. p at the time stood for the us. and so it was add her coaching that i went to vi g, b o s the, the misguided just went to everybody cuz i wasn't really sure at the time what to

do. and i was, i was just kind of learning the ropes, but there was no one to talk to know when to ask questions i, i felt very alone and trying to figure this out. i'm sure i made mistakes early on . there were lessons to be learned, but i do remember, i know i g telling may you know, be in for a penny, be in for a pound. you sent to go to o. s. a. so i, you know, i, some of these people in authority that i thought were helpful, or there to help me. right. and that wasn't always the best didn't topic right. well, in, in government we're all taught to go through the chain of command when we see evidence of waste, fraud abuse or illegality. you, you went through your chain of command and then you ended up going to the, to the inspector general. you later said that that was a mistake. can you explain that to us? so our so i think some mistakes that i'm, that i made was one. there was no guidance in any of this process. you really are hunting, impacting with your, your, with

a blindfold on trying to figure out what's the right way to manage these things. you know, i'm a social worker by background, not an attorney. i didn't know if i needed to even hire an attorney at that point. so you're relying on reading websites, looking at, after looking at like, what do they say? evidence is trying to figure this all out for yourself. and the mistake i made earlier on was not having me o i g investigate the case at the time a probably 3 times asking for help. and 3 times they didn't even they didn't open a case or they referred me to somebody else. so the day of g o i j did it on these things that i complained about. and they sent me the o. s a. and it was said, oh i see where, you know, they, they tell you where attorneys were helping you were representing you. some of that process that you realize?

no, these are government attorneys, they're not really your attorneys representing you. that's right. which is which is why so many was the blowers end up needing an attorney even at the o. s. c process. i think that's, that was an important nuance or stan, so eventually hired an attorney to help me get through some of the a c process where i got my prima facia recognition as a whistleblower. and then this individual right to appeal letter, to take my case to the m s p b. so this, there's nothing simple about any of this. and it's definitely you learn lessons along the way. and it was one of the reasons that i set up with the lawyers of america because in the us and i was starting to be more public about looking for wisdom lower information. and i went online, i was on social media,

connected with somebody else who was at another federal agency. the was in law enforcement, had a gun and was comfortable putting suicide. and for me, investors triggered everything. i knew about combat trauma about suicide prevention that we needed to do more and be more because no one is, is looking out for the whistleblower in any of these kinds of cases. we are speaking with us defense department was the blower, jackie garrick, about her experience at the pep, we're going to ask her and you to stay with us as we take a short commercial break. we'll be right back. 2 2 2 2 2 2 the summations may be able to turn to atrocity is different wherever people long to be free. they will find a friend in the united states,

the, to the automated about 80 volts, and a very, very easy to sort of city and draw the look at what the in service of each skid 18 color revolutions is, was to reach the goal of conquering foreign lands and bringing them on to the helm of us. the western economic interest people been cited. i didn't that he did. so when i go by the democrats. yeah. portal, i think so there's a file in there. you can see the final goal of the steamer of allusions is to ensure that there are no independent the welcome back to the whistle blowers. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with

pentagon, with the blower, jackie garrick, about her experiences in the department of defense. jackie, thanks again for being with us. you for having me here. results of your whistle blowing. it's easy to get lost and the bureaucracy of whistle blowing and the obstacles that we face when making our revelations. the important thing is that you made a complaint about waste, fraud abuse or illegality. what ended up happening with it where he corrected um the so it took 5 years um for my case to run the wickets. and um, in 2020, after getting the foyer, not what we got. and i was pro say i was representing myself. um, i was able to read to the judge these emails and things that i had gotten on for you that i had gotten on discovery was cathartic. just in of itself was to read those things to him and,

and then to when my case in 2020 was probably the most surprise person in all of this with me because it was that, that feeling that he truly believed to me that in his dis, the and the most on the retaliation were really there and um, he avoided me my retirement benefits that i had applied for so that that was great to you owed me 3 years or the government of the 3 years of back pay . and so i took the venture building whistleblowers of america. so on that part it has been great. um, after i was removed from the defense suicide prevention office, i, i went back and i said, well, where's the accountability for what happened to the program? and if you go on the website, i don't know if it's still up there. i've been checked in a while. but the d h r a,

the defense human resource activity overseas. the budget for the suicide prevention office. next in 2017. that office is reduced by to and having a rough estimate in here, a budget of about 25000000 that i was executing on to now about 5000000. and then in subsequent years, the defense department says, oh, we have increase the budget because it went from like 5000000 to 8000000 to 9000000 to 8000000 and the bunch of it has certain flux around there. but since i was removed it's of directors, the one that was there after me was re, was moved over to the b a and then resign from government. the interim director is the last director that was there left. and i don't know if there's now another permanence. so there's been at least 4 or 5 directors over that office with

a budget that has gone down to the active duty guard and reserve, i think speak for themselves. the only time we ever saw a reduction in suicide was when we were looking for specifically targeting programs towards the guard and reserves. we saw decrease a little a little eating downward trends that we were hopeful that we would see again in 2015. but of course, it was in february of 2015 from what you could from what is available public documents. it looks like the programs and the contracts were then canceled in 2015 by that. and by that summer, by august, most of my work that i had in south did was, was canceled. and the programs and the things were going into under contract after that called be there. and i've had several whistle blowers call me about that program. basically, being a sam that it didn't take the numbers, it's,

it was i supposed to take people who i've talked to said, you know, they were given embroidered shirts with their names on it. but then they weren't allowed to go out into the public and do any outreach or spread awareness about the program. so i think there's been other concerns. i know that the last time i saw a hearing and there was testimony about shrugging his shoulders and not seeming to know why the numbers were go on up and and that was the last permanent director. of course that has since gone, but it's been, it's been those frustrating moments for me to see the d. o. d call suicide, the new norm o and trends and in the initiatives that you can take that could reduce suicide. that are evidence based. some of the peer support stuff we were doing. there are ways to make suicide prevention

more effective than i feel like the d o d has or isn't. you know, that makes me personally sad because it adds to what i feel like is, is been my frustration overall this cause i feel like we were in a good place. and, and i hate to see where we are now with the see what the d. n as to be a, neither of them have been outstanding in terms of what they've been able to prevent . and you were under real time constraints when you blew the whistle because you were a political appointee. that meant that your job literally ended at the moment that the obama administration left office, even if you had to keep up the fight for your retirement lustration. did that time constraint help or hurt your ability to blow the whistle. and so i had really hope that the office of special counsel would have been more helpful in allowing me to

stay on um in a um and then with uh, the and there are different authorities they could have used to do that. well, my case continued, i honestly got it from 2015 to 2017 that we wouldn't, we wouldn't be dragging this on. and the, the one issue that gave me was because what the d or d him from a political to occur made me with the lower rice because i had applied and was trying to remain in the position of my political appointee. status really didn't matter for the case, but my employment ended when the obama administration ended and after that was willing, of course, to be helpful to help me move this case or continue this case. as a federal employee, me, you went on to found the organization had to provide peer support to whistle blowers in need of it. honestly, as i said a moment ago,

i can't think of anything that whistle blowers need more except maybe legal representation. tell us about founding the group pulling to you've done what, what kinds of whistle blowers have reached out for help? i so every time i know somebody has reached out for help, so i really honestly didn't know what i was getting myself into. i thought we needed to have these kinds of conversations amongst ourselves so we can help each other, solve problems, make decisions, and be resilient. i quickly learned that it's, it's a surprise that you need that you need to know how to hire an attorney, that you would need to know how to work with the media. i mean, thank goodness i had had some media training while i was asked kind of gone. so it's explaining simple things like what's, what does it mean to be on background? what is off the record and a, i mean i have people say, yeah, i talked to an attorney, i'm like, okay, how 1st is your attorney and what's the blower laws and the like. i don't know,

he's the guy who handled my divorce and then it just makes me wonder, cringing checks my have. so the idea that we need each other, we need to help each other understand these things. i think it's important and then to be able to family handling this, how are you? how are you managing this? who's helping you, how? who's supporting you? how are you developing your evidence? do you know, um, you know, i, i get people who will tell me what have evidence and then they'll send me emails that they wrote. i'm like, no, that's not really evidence. that's your opinion. and it could be good to help build your case. but that's not what this means. and so i'm constantly trying to help people understand the nature of their case. how to work with the media if need be, how to work with congress if need be, how to work with investigators. um the i j the g a o. like who can you go to for

how and who else can we build this? and what's the following is a tough subject. um, you know, we're not, we don't have sick children and keep puppies that are part of our little blowing. what's the cause? i've worked with all kinds of whistle blowers, but when we talk about the with the blower, not necessarily the case. it's very hard to get the right resources to support this mission. like i said, i invested a lot of my own money. right? um, we definitely you can use more, some of america dot org as a donate button on it. so anybody who wants to help this causes invited to join us . but otherwise i, you know, this is, this is a complex set of issues and very, very difficult to get people to understand the true nature of these cases. it is indeed, well, i would like to today and for sharing her experience. and i'd like to think our viewers for being with us. martin luther king once said that life's most persistent question was, what are you doing for others?

the big galli poet, robin for enough territory. i slept and dreamt that life was joy. i awoke and saw that life was service. i acted and behold, service was joy. thanks again for joining us. you've been watching the whistle blowers, i'm john. 2 2 2 2 2 2 the on the toner, it will see skit 3, c v that use that. those us that was movie on is zacko. go on that they're not showing interviews for it up and you're not, you should have full state taxation. you folks have tried. i'm not sure but i she's and he is actually of about john long would love to go just talk a little you should see those sheets of those a go. there's a low c,

a years ago. the sales custom also expands. here was the months me, i'm a photo skin, she was of the about the show. and 2nd most the go waterfront. it's thing. it's been cool to the building. you're open when you get a mind for sure. that's the pipe. gotcha. for 3 years, scroll kindly, i need to console. you provided to your site was the, the us the timelines. international status. you see you have no c, lucy's visits, which already created crisis. anthony lincoln, i'm sure china wilson thoughts a military operation. there was i have even have no, i don't want to even down to about the willing of the sofa to, to do it. you know, so any idea she shipped

a dark green report, the control room for 2 or 3 get the mobile, the system really being you have enough not to say divide. so it's that's and i'm assuming, yeah, we did. the cloud shows actually it's streams of dark news, but i'll let you as well. but the crazy if that's all there is to motivate my survey, but just to get us whatever we ship, ruth didn't instead of just a good fit, you a a to just go to the chemo. but of them i need deals that says that you trained school, so that's good news. i used to move on when they finished over the course of where i need to reach these groups, go directly to the truck. the best way to, to take

a picture of the day so that i'm not the so what about the, the planning cows are offensive at the 1000 for on line destroying at least 4 german 11 times. i'm feeling more than 5 after this whole science proposals. and said you couldn't incorporate one as feel like twice and as